Volkswagen has ‘a year, maybe two to turn around’, financial chief warns

[Gromett]

You have chosen a definition of rationing that suits your position. I used rationing in the economic / price rationing sense.

Two can play that game:

" Prices ration scarce resources when demand outstrips supply"

so NER

I notice you don't provide a source for your definition?

I don't think that definition makes sense.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I notice you don't provide a source for your definition?

I don't think that definition makes sense.

Nitpick away young feller!

It does make perfectly logical sense to me. Any economist would probably agree with it.

 

[Gromett]

Nitpick away young feller!

It does make perfectly logical sense to me. Any economist would probably agree with it.

I very much doubt any economist would agree with you. your definition is not rationing it is the mechanism of price setting.
Completely different things.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I very much doubt any economist would agree with you. your definition is not rationing it is the mechanism of price setting.
Completely different things.

Er, they are facets of the same thing. Can you name an economist who agrees with your narrow POV?

 

[fred_jb]

You are both rightYou have chosen a definition of rationing that suits your position. I used rationing in the economic / price rationing sense.

Two can play that game:

" Prices ration scarce resources when demand outstrips supply"

so NER

You are both right so let's have no more mooning emojis!

There is externally imposed rationing as in WWII, and self imposed rationing where you voluntarily restrict your consumption due to price or other factors.

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[SpeedyDux]

You are both right so let's have no more mooning emojis!

There is externally imposed rationing as in WWII, and self imposed rationing where you voluntarily restrict your consumption due to price or other factors.

Don't worry, sparring with Gromett keeps my remaining grey cells fit.

 

[gus-lopez]

I agree ref charging but it has to be pence per mile for all vehicles.

Why? ice are paying road tax & fuel duty.

It won’t just be EVs targetted.

They should be as they are the problem due to lack of ved under the 'rope a dope' scheme plus the loss of fuel duty

They decide wheitn (maybe if) your EV will be charged.

& why even if I bought one the first thing that I would do is purchase a bigger diesel generator for charging as & when needed & without any restrictions

where they’ve also turned off charging for 30 mins unplanned to help the grid

just what you want standing there waiting for the thing to charge to find they've cut you off so all the more reason for the above

 

[starquake]

just what you want standing there waiting for the thing to charge to find they've cut you off so all the more reason for the above

They have never turned off rapids (ie what you use on motorway OR for enroute charging). They only turn off home chargers, when it's convienient. Its intellignet charging, if it needed that half hour period to meet your departure time (which you tell it when you start charging) it would NOT turn off either.

Ref; VED, yes, as of next year, we pay it, and MORE than my old diesel, which is not exactly unironic (that is still £20 today, £180 next year for the EV).

 

[BikerGraham]

They have never turned off rapids (ie what you use on motorway OR for enroute charging). They only turn off home chargers, when it's convienient. Its intellignet charging, if it needed that half hour period to meet your departure time (which you tell it when you start charging) it would NOT turn off either.

Ref; VED, yes, as of next year, we pay it, and MORE than my old diesel, which is not exactly unironic (that is still £20 today, £180 next year for the EV).

Yes VED, as how else could you explain £111 for a motorbike.
EV’s should contribute as other road vehicles have to. After all it’s only fair

 

[fred_jb]

Yes VED, as how else could you explain £111 for a motorbike.
EV’s should contribute as other road vehicles have to. After all it’s only fair

Yes, especially as the lardy buggers do more damage to the roads and release more particulates from their tyres.

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[starquake]

Yes, especially as the lardy buggers do more damage to the roads and release more particulates from their tyres.

But arguable a ton less brake dust, which has proven links to cancer (EV's hardly touch their brakes as regen does all the work, where hybrids use it more as they don't have the battery to dump a 2 ton vehicle from 60-nil, they regen SOME but an EV recaptures near all).

The increase in weight when I checked on the Niro I owned was under 100kg from the petrol version of same car. The lardiness is somewhat understated, as a fatter driver may account for the extra weight in some case. 100kg, surprisingly is about what a tank of diesel weighs too

EV's are NOT all bad, the lack of brake dust in particular will lead to cleaner air and streets more than tyres!

 

[starquake]

Yes VED, as how else could you explain £111 for a motorbike.
EV’s should contribute as other road vehicles have to. After all it’s only fair

Oh I agree, happy to pay the VED, and it shouldn't have been left at nil for as long as it was, just find it stupid they increased EV's without fixing the loophole on older diesels still allowing lower tax, despite MORE emissions.

Fairness is all I seek, and I'm regretting getting rid of the £20 tax merc now.

 

[fred_jb]

But arguable a ton less brake dust, which has proven links to cancer (EV's hardly touch their brakes as regen does all the work, where hybrids use it more as they don't have the battery to dump a 2 ton vehicle from 60-nil, they regen SOME but an EV recaptures near all).

The increase in weight when I checked on the Niro I owned was under 100kg from the petrol version of same car. The lardiness is somewhat understated, as a fatter driver may account for the extra weight in some case. 100kg, surprisingly is about what a tank of diesel weighs too

EV's are NOT all bad, the lack of brake dust in particular will lead to cleaner air and streets more than tyres!

Yes, fair points, though I used to hardly touch the brakes in previous ICE cars, mainly slowing down on engine braking, as I also do on the motorcycle. With the current plug in hybrid the battery is big enough for a meaningful amount of regen energy recovery. On a longish journey we have sometimes charged the battery back to its full 30 or so miles capacity. Just need to remember to switch to EV only mode 30 miles from home to make best use of it!

Regarding weight I was thinking more of the 2 tonne behemoths with multiple motors and very high capacity batteries which seems to the direction of a lot of EV development. I would be more interested in a lightweight small cheap EV with 100 or so miles range for local journeys. Seem to be some like this coming out of China but not much else.

 

[starquake]

They have never turned off rapids (ie what you use on motorway OR for enroute charging). They only turn off home chargers, when it's convienient. Its intellignet charging, if it needed that half hour period to meet your departure time (which you tell it when you start charging) it would NOT turn off either.

Ref; VED, yes, as of next year, we pay it, and MORE than my old diesel, which is not exactly unironic (that is still £20 today, £180 next year for the EV).

Should have edited this to also make point - that an average EV takes on a home charger (7kw) somewhere in the 8-10 hour region to charge. I used to get home 5-6pm, and leave 7am. There quite a few hours between those points even if I arrived totally empty I wouldn't NEED the car to be charging, thats the point of intelligent charging and why you leave the when it charges to energy firm for the cheap rates.

As said, I use Agile now, which actually my charger ALSO does for me, prioritising all the cheapest half hours automatically to reduce the cost. I can even cap the rate so it never charges if Agile rate is > 7p say. My charger is 4 years old and offers this, this ISN't a new thing, Zappi, Ohme chargers have done this for OVER 4 years now.

 

[Mzracer]

Not specifically MoHo related but interesting industry stuff, reading this it’s more about China than Tesla gaining footholds. But what I think we are seeing is the pains of technology change and how an industry and scociety adapts along with political legislation. Ford GM and others are all feeling the pain.

Volkswagen has ‘a year, maybe two to turn around’, financial chief warns

Volkswagen has ‘a year, maybe two to turn around’, financial chief warns

Carmaker defends plan to close German plants as Volvo ditches target to sell only electric cars by 2030

www.theguardian.com

I have been saying for sometime that the EV thing will end in tears and it looks like VW maybe the first victim to own up to this.

Prior to the EV panic companies like VW had a pretty secure position but that has been torn apart by the influx of Chinese cars and the demand destruction that has resulted from buyers not wishing to invest in the EV fantasy.

My prediction is that eventually a company like VW will need more or less taking into state ownership as it is too big to fail, the knock on's for the European economy would be too much to allow total failure.

This will cost the German government huge amounts of money, probably the US government as well as, because I think that Ford might flounder in the same way.

Mark my words it will end in tears !!

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[Coolcats]

I have been saying for sometime that the EV thing will end in tears and it looks like VW maybe the first victim to own up to this.

Prior to the EV panic companies like VW had a pretty secure position but that has been torn apart by the influx of Chinese cars and the demand destruction that has resulted from buyers not wishing to invest in the EV fantasy.

My prediction is that eventually a company like VW will need more or less taking into state ownership as it is too big to fail, the knock on's for the European economy would be too much to allow total failure.

This will cost the German government huge amounts of money, probably the US government as well as, because I think that Ford might flounder in the same way.

Mark my words it will end in tears !!

Consumers do not care many will just buy the cheapest product they can

 

[Mzracer]

Consumers do not care many will just buy the cheapest product they can

They will care when the economy collapses !! That is where this is heading.

 

[starquake]

They will care when the economy collapses !! That is where this is heading.

Becuase of VW making poor decisions like Austin and the other british manufacturers in past? Unlikely.

Spotted yesterday that the Cadent fleet of British Gas EV vans is on sale.

Demand destruction I would agree with IF that was resulting in lower sales, but there are clearly higher sales this year across ENTIRE EU now I've checked data

Source: https://www.acea.auto/pc-registrati...july-2024-battery-electric-12-1-market-share/

Car registrations +3.9% in 2024 doesn't exactly show VW's doom and gloom does it? VW are losing market share rapidly when you read into the data, but sales are UP not down, and EV sales make a large % of the growth. It appears people don't like VW's EV cars (possibly the pricing of them).

 

[Mzracer]

Becuase of VW making poor decisions like Austin and the other british manufacturers in past? Unlikely.

Spotted yesterday that the Cadent fleet of British Gas EV vans is on sale.

Demand destruction I would agree with IF that was resulting in lower sales, but there are clearly higher sales this year across ENTIRE EU now I've checked data

View attachment 946751

Source: https://www.acea.auto/pc-registrati...july-2024-battery-electric-12-1-market-share/

Car registrations +3.9% in 2024 doesn't exactly show VW's doom and gloom does it? VW are losing market share rapidly when you read into the data, but sales are UP not down, and EV sales make a large % of the growth. It appears people don't like VW's EV cars (possibly the pricing of them).

Here is the real picture from the SMMT

As a result, so far in 2024, 1,006,763 new cars have been registered, up 6.0% on the previous year but still down -20.7% on 2019. June's market growth was driven primarily by the fleet sector, where uptake rose by 14.2%, while private retail demand fell for the ninth consecutive month, down -15.3%

-20.7% is demand destruction in my books.

 

[Mzracer]

Becuase of VW making poor decisions like Austin and the other british manufacturers in past? Unlikely.

Spotted yesterday that the Cadent fleet of British Gas EV vans is on sale.

Demand destruction I would agree with IF that was resulting in lower sales, but there are clearly higher sales this year across ENTIRE EU now I've checked data

View attachment 946751

Source: https://www.acea.auto/pc-registrati...july-2024-battery-electric-12-1-market-share/

Car registrations +3.9% in 2024 doesn't exactly show VW's doom and gloom does it? VW are losing market share rapidly when you read into the data, but sales are UP not down, and EV sales make a large % of the growth. It appears people don't like VW's EV cars (possibly the pricing of them).

Toyota slashes EV production amid slowing sales | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

Toyota Motor has cut its 2026 global production for electric vehicles by about a third due to a slowdown in demand.

www3.nhk.or.jp

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[starquake]

Toyota slashes EV production amid slowing sales | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

Toyota Motor has cut its 2026 global production for electric vehicles by about a third due to a slowdown in demand.

www3.nhk.or.jp

I don't think that one surprises anyone, they were literally the LAST to start production due to their focus on the failed Hydrogen thing.

As such have less experience than China, and some worrying reliability if you read their owners thoughts on auto forums.

Bad product is bad product and doesn't sell...

 

[Coolcats]

They will care when the economy collapses !! That is where this is heading.

I’m not disagreeing with you but the same has happened in manufacturing, the same happened with Textiles coal mining and steel works and so on….consumers don’t care the just want cheap otherwise who would buy a MG ? It’s not a british brand !

 

[Langtoftlad]

How long ago was it that government interference pointed us all to diesel cars...?
Better for the environment, cheaper to run, more mpg...
What was it called, "Dash for Diesel"
Not even 25 years, such short memories
What will be the next best thing - whatever it is, it'll cost us all money one way or another.

 

[Mzracer]

I’m not disagreeing with you but the same has happened in manufacturing, the same happened with Textiles coal mining and steel works and so on….consumers don’t care the just want cheap otherwise who would buy a MG ? It’s not a british brand !

To be honest I am talking more on a Pan European level rather than just a UK perspective.

The German government have to keep the car factories going, their whole economy depends on those factories, do you remember scrappage scheme around 2009? There scrapping age was 3 years if I remember correctly.

EV's are way less effective in Germany than the UK as well.

Of course Starquake will be able to tell us different on that.

 

[starquake]

To be honest I am talking more on a Pan European level rather than just a UK perspective.

The German government have to keep the car factories going, their whole economy depends on those factories, do you remember scrappage scheme around 2009? There scrapping age was 3 years if I remember correctly.

EV's are way less effective in Germany than the UK as well.

Of course Starquake will be able to tell us different on that.

I agree on them being less effecient, the fact is speed and power usage is not linear it's exponential, so the German autobahns (unrestricted) really don't suit EV's (well other than the Porache Taycan which can do high speeds, as it also has ridicolous charge speeds).

The reality fo Germany though is many autobahns do have speed limits at times, so for those it's a better option. I would not want to drive a VW EV with it's quite limited speed on a unrestricted autobahn (or indeed my own car).

Germans like to buy German cars, and they don't like German EV's is what we can learn from last years sales stats. Nothing more nothing less. That said, BMW's EVs are not bad at all. Both BMW and Mercedes sold at or above their predictions in 2023 apparenlly (in Germany). Mercedes had a bad Q4, but sales still were okay.

What we appear to be looking at is a VW problem. (https://www.reuters.com/business/au...q4-dampened-by-supply-constraints-2024-01-11/)

And I agree the VW factorys have to find a solution, but as we've stated here (and my experience of working with Germany) is the Unions are quite difficult to work with, and I suspect a significant part of the VW problem is a Union/Workers Council problem given my own direct experience is these work at a very slow speed (you talking 6 months to get any significant changes past them). French and German unions were both nightmares at a pan-european business I worked for.

I suspect VW will end up like certain British manufacturers and cease to exist or become a brand of a Chinese company. The mad thing is if you look at their finances currently VW's shareholdings in other companys are valued higher than the entire shareholding of VW themselves. Either a great investment case or a company about to literally implode given the market is valuing them effectively at 0.

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[starquake]

Should say VW's current market value could potentially place them at risk of a "unfriendly" takeover potentially too. Be interested what happens but one thing for sure is I will not be touching their stock with a bargepole at present.

 

[starquake]

More pain coming for VW

£30 ish K 350 mile range EV from Kia. With immense effeciency when compared with the VW's..
This is the new line from Kia... to replace the Niro.

 

[Mzracer]

More pain coming for VW

£30 ish K 350 mile range EV from Kia. With immense effeciency when compared with the VW's..
This is the new line from Kia... to replace the Niro.

Efficiency in motion would not be too difficult to replicate, that is not VW's problem.

 

[Coolcats]

I agree on them being less effecient, the fact is speed and power usage is not linear it's exponential, so the German autobahns (unrestricted) really don't suit EV's (well other than the Porache Taycan which can do high speeds, as it also has ridicolous charge speeds).

The reality fo Germany though is many autobahns do have speed limits at times, so for those it's a better option. I would not want to drive a VW EV with it's quite limited speed on a unrestricted autobahn (or indeed my own car).

Germans like to buy German cars, and they don't like German EV's is what we can learn from last years sales stats. Nothing more nothing less. That said, BMW's EVs are not bad at all. Both BMW and Mercedes sold at or above their predictions in 2023 apparenlly (in Germany). Mercedes had a bad Q4, but sales still were okay.

Interesting opinion not all autobahns are unrestricted, even the. Many vehicles are traveling around 60-65 mph and if you feel you do not like to drive your own car on the autobahn then maybe MotorHomes and Lorrie’s should not go.

 

[jerryz]

Volkswagons problems are not just about EVs , Dieselgate etc the real elephant in the room for VW is Quality , poor design of engines, gearboxes and high prices for inferior cars and terrible customer service ,,, They are trading on a reputation for quality earned in the 1970s to Late 1990s which is now totally eroded . The financial figures in VW group accounts show warranty and repair costs at 4 Billion euros a year compared to Toyotas $1 Billion a year for same production volumes ,,,,both make 10m + vehicles a year ,,, Ford have more problems in quality as do Stellantis Just ask any independent Mechanic , Taxi drivers, etc about VW and they will tell you how rubbish their product is ,, Plastic bearings on cambelts and water pumps ,, dodgy DSG gearboxes , electrics, AD blue systems that are dire , cam Chains that snap , the list is endless .
VW trade on their name which in reality is dirt

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