Volkswagen has ‘a year, maybe two to turn around’, financial chief warns

SpeedyDux said:
Your vaunted 7p per KWh doesn't include the humungous cost of the upgrade needed for the uprated distribution system at local level. That investment will have to come from somewhere else - probably paid mostly by all the ICE car owners, one way or another, through their high energy bills and daily standing charges. That just isn't fair. If the true cost of this EV revolution fell on the EV owners themselves and nobody else, you couldn't afford it, could you. It's like taxing horses so Ford's Model T cars can have a petrol pump in every street.
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worth noting the solution to this problem ALREADY exists in the intelligent tariff where the grid can tell your energy company how many cars need charging that night and produce a charge plan that charges them all without overloading the local grid.

If the technology didn’t already exist and wasn’t already in operation I would agree with you. You ONLY get the 7p rate if you have a complaint charger or car btw.

As such my charge when on it charged when the local grid was over stressed with too much solar in summer and during day in winter prior to winter heat loads for houses when cold. Still 7p.

Look at it this way today the local distribution network has periods where it’s nowhere near capacity the EVs will just use that.

Dumb chargers of course can charge whenever but won’t get 7p rates.

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starquake said:
worth noting the solution to this problem ALREADY exists in the intelligent tariff where the grid can tell your energy company how many cars need charging that night and produce a charge plan that charges them all without overloading the local grid.

If the technology didn’t already exist and wasn’t already in operation I would agree with you. You ONLY get the 7p rate if you have a complaint charger or car btw.

As such my charge when on it charged when the local grid was over stressed with too much solar in summer and during day in winter prior to winter heat loads for houses when cold. Still 7p.

Look at it this way today the local distribution network has periods where it’s nowhere near capacity the EVs will just use that.

Dumb chargers of course can charge whenever but won’t get 7p rates.
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Call me cynical but eventually this free ride (because that is effectively what it is) on EV charging will end.

Until a few years ago the population were prepared to pay a certain percentage of their income to run a motor vehicle, that is a baked in number really. The energy companies (oil mostly) will not have forgotten this acceptance to be fleeced.

If EV usage ever gets to high levels then these companies will want that revenue share back, it is after all a capitalist World.
 
John-Laika said:
I have had an horrible experience with VW EV we bought a WV e-up it's three years old and recently after charging it at home like we normally do the next morning went to drive it and got a error message saying "electric fault contact workshop".
RAC towed it into amazon dealer and that afternoon I got a vidio from them saying small puncture in the battery case and another one in the battery new case,battery and safety wiring needed cost £21.680 😑
That's more that it would cost to replace it.
I'm waiting to hear from my insurance now.
I will never buy a VW electric again.
I contacted VW at customerservices@volkswagen.co.uk
And they are not interested even thought the battery has 8 year warranty they say damaged less see what the insurance day.
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John-Laika there is a recent Top Gear YouTube video where they interviewed a guy in the UK who repairs batteries. It might be worth watching as another potential option. They talk about the cost of replacement or repair. Good luck.
 
Mzracer said:
Call me cynical but eventually this free ride (because that is effectively what it is) on EV charging will end.

Until a few years ago the population were prepared to pay a certain percentage of their income to run a motor vehicle, that is a baked in number really. The energy companies (oil mostly) will not have forgotten this acceptance to be fleeced.

If EV usage ever gets to high levels then these companies will want that revenue share back, it is after all a capitalist World.
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They are BANKING on EVs able to dump wind power to fix the problems with wind. ( ie at times there is too much ). Companies already being paid by the grid now to charge EVs battery’s at times that suits the grid as it’s cheaper than turning off a wind generation source.

I agree ref charging but it has to be pence per mile for all vehicles. It won’t just be EVs targetted. It can’t be charges on electricity as they also want electric home heat remember - to replace gas boilers with head pumps.

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starquake said:
worth noting the solution to this problem ALREADY exists in the intelligent tariff where the grid can tell your energy company how many cars need charging that night and produce a charge plan that charges them all without overloading the local grid.

If the technology didn’t already exist and wasn’t already in operation I would agree with you. You ONLY get the 7p rate if you have a complaint charger or car btw.

As such my charge when on it charged when the local grid was over stressed with too much solar in summer and during day in winter prior to winter heat loads for houses when cold. Still 7p.

Look at it this way today the local distribution network has periods where it’s nowhere near capacity the EVs will just use that.

Dumb chargers of course can charge whenever but won’t get 7p rates.
Click to expand...
In other words, charge plan = RATIONING electricity. They decide when (maybe if) your EV will be charged. When it suits them.

All these measures are transparent ploys to allow the Grid and energy companies to pretend that the entire street level distribution system is adquate for a mass switchover from ICE to EV. It needs an estimated £trillion investment between now and 2050.

Technology as a solution? That reminds me of Boeing's fatal decision to use software to fix a hardware problem with the 737 Max series.

Installing the right hardware in good time to meet rising demand does matter. In the short run, maybe the Grid can get away with technology to ration electricity for consumers in various ways. It won't be sustainable for very long because the public will wake up when rolling blackouts are imposed. Unless of course the EV market has more or less saturated already.

Next, about those heat pumps ... I'm sticking with my gas boiler. :LOL:
 
starquake said:
They are BANKING on EVs able to dump wind power to fix the problems with wind. ( ie at times there is too much ). Companies already being paid by the grid now to charge EVs battery’s at times that suits the grid as it’s cheaper than turning off a wind generation source.

I agree ref charging but it has to be pence per mile for all vehicles. It won’t just be EVs targetted. It can’t be charges on electricity as they also want electric home heat remember - to replace gas boilers with head pumps.
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BMW don't seem tobe giving up on hydrogen, what do they know that you don't?

BMW hydrogen link below.

MSN

www.msn.com
 
Guigsy said:
I think plug-in hybrids are the worst. You've got a very bad EV, or an overweight and over complicated ICE. The main reason they exist is the tax loophole.
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So many people say that, but I have to disagree.

We have an Audi A3 40 TFSI e plug in hybrid and I really think it combines the best of both worlds, while costing much less than a full EV. We do all our local journeys entirely on relatively cheap energy by charging overnight from the simple 13A charger. The clever integration of the electric motor with the engine and DSG gearbox means that it has very good acceleration even in EV only mode by using the gears to optimise the electric drive, and can reach up to 87 mph without troubling the petrol engine - as I know because I have tested that claim! It has outstanding performance when you use the kickdown for overtaking as the petrol engine and electric motor work together to give you around 204 hp, and for longer journeys you still have very good performance from the 1.4l turbo petrol engine and no range anxiety, with it doing around 40-50 mpg on petrol only. Despite having both petrol and electric motors the car only weighs about 1550 kg which is a lot less than many EVs. A plug in hybrid may not suit everyone, but we find it is absolutely perfect for our usage.

In contrast I think non-plug in hybrids, or as they are laughably referred to by the manufacturers, "self charging" hybrids, are a bit of a con. Many people, fooled by the hybrid tag, seem not to realise that all the energy used comes from petrol as they can't be charged from the mains. Also, most are incapable of driving on electric power only, or if so only for minimal distances. Yes they do use energy regenerated when braking to put charge into their tiny batteries to help their underpowered petrol engines accelerate, and that does slightly improve fuel economy. However, plug in hybrids do regenerative braking too, but can store much more energy giving more opportunities to do meaningful amounts of "self charging".
 
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SpeedyDux said:
Thanks for the link.

I saw this on the side bar:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news...S&cvid=56bccb760a6a42ca840cae6acdbb965f&ei=29

Must be getting desperate to attract customers!
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Yes the big switch plan to EV is certainly not working out as expected.

As many of you will know, I am extremely cynical at multiple levels but be sure that when the incumbent government tell you what energy source that your car should be running on then expect heaps of trouble.

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Steve and Denise said:
I’ve been motorhoming since 2008 and never had the need for 4 travelling seats, horses for courses of corse👍
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Understood, but my point was that with only 2 travelling seats with seatbelts, a motorhome marketed as 4 berth sleeping is misleading in exactly how many people can actually be carried safely and legally.
Not sure if this model was outlined as 4 berth though, but I thought it was.
 
Captain Yoghurtpot said:
Understood, but my point was that with only 2 travelling seats with seatbelts, a motorhome marketed as 4 berth sleeping is misleading in exactly how many people can actually be carried safely and legally.
Not sure if this model was outlined as 4 berth though, but I thought it was.
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Any more than two is to many for me 🤣
 
Steve and Denise said:
never had the need for 4 travelling seats,
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Thought that when I had my van but….one time going over to the beach for a day out and also taking Mum, said you will be ok on the lounge seat as only 10 min drive and less than 30mph😁
Came out down the drive turned left and heard a big bang😳turned around and Mum had slid off the seat and was nearly in the Hab door well😂😂😂pulled over PDQ and got her upright 😁😁
 
SpeedyDux said:
In other words, charge plan = RATIONING electricity.
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No it is not rationing. Rationing suggests restrictions.

That is not what is being suggested. If you want to charge at peak times you will still be able to, you just won't benefit from the best prices.
 
Gromett said:
No it is not rationing. Rationing suggests restrictions.

That is not what is being suggested. If you want to charge at peak times you will still be able to, you just won't benefit from the best prices.
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And how it works now to get best rates you simply tell the energy company what you need and when and leave it to them. 7p charging whenever.

Interview from Greg Jackson octopus ceo on YouTube on the cleaning up podcast yesterday precisely about how revolutionary that is. Today octopus control about 3% of entire uk grid via the intelligent octopus tariff at some times. They are paid to do so.

There are examples where they’ve also turned off charging for 30 mins unplanned to help the grid with demand when gas fired generation plants have failed/faulted out.

Very worth a watch and there is a reason octopus have rose from nothing to being the largest uk retailer of energy currently when you watch. It’s worth noting EON also use octopuses revolutionary platform too now ( as do a few other energy retailers).
 
fred_jb said:
So many people say that, but I have to disagree.

We have an Audi A3 40 TFSI e plug in hybrid and I really think it combines the best of both worlds, while costing much less than a full EV. We do all our local journeys entirely on relatively cheap energy by charging overnight from the simple 13A charger. The clever integration of the electric motor with the engine and DSG gearbox means that it has very good acceleration even in EV only mode by using the gears to optimise the electric drive, and can reach up to 87 mph without troubling the petrol engine - as I know because I have tested that claim! It has outstanding performance when you use the kickdown for overtaking as the petrol engine and electric motor work together to give you around 204 hp, and for longer journeys you still have very good performance from the 1.4l turbo petrol engine and no range anxiety, with it doing around 40-50 mpg on petrol only. Despite having both petrol and electric motors the car only weighs about 1550 kg which is a lot less than many EVs. A plug in hybrid may not suit everyone, but we find it is absolutely perfect for our usage.

In contrast I think non-plug in hybrids, or as they are laughably referred to by the manufacturers, "self charging" hybrids, are a bit of a con. Many people, fooled by the hybrid tag, seem not to realise that all the energy used comes from petrol as they can't be charged from the mains. Also, most are incapable of driving on electric power only, or if so only for minimal distances. Yes they do use energy regenerated when braking to put charge into their tiny batteries to help their underpowered petrol engines accelerate, and that does slightly improve fuel economy. However, plug in hybrids do regenerative braking too, but can store much more energy giving more opportunities to do meaningful amounts of "self charging".
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Your scorn for self-charging hybrids is misplaced. Here are some real-world facts:

On long journeys your Audi can only manage 40-50 mpg. My full hybrid Jazz averages 69 -70 mpg. The regenerative braking is a key factor that increases the mpg by 30% compared against our previous ICE Jazz. I don't bother using the "econ" mode that some forum users claim enables up to 90 mpg.

It has a small HV battery but that is enough to get me to the town centre car parks in electric only mode. Not such a minimal distance as you think.

As for your reference to the underpowered petrol engine, it is a 1.5 L Atkinson cycle engine optimised for efficiency. It doesn't have an inefficient turbocharger. When acceleration is needed the ICE plus the electric traction motor enable the Jazz to do 0-62 in 9 seconds (actual test figure from Carwow) which would have been pretty OK for a hot hatch not so long ago. I think your Audi could manage 0-62 in 7.6 seconds because it has more horsepower. I will concede that small advantage. I am not bothered about challenging other cars to a race away from traffic lights. Mine has adequate performance for overtakes anyway.

I see the lack of need to plug it in to recharge a much bigger, heavier battery as a plus point. For my low mileage petrol-only is very acceptable.

Your plug-in hybrid Audi has an on-the-road price @ £37K. My hybrid Jazz cost @ £22K new. Which car is likely to depreciate the most? I see some 2024 used Audis like yours ones with 5K mileage advertised for £24K so in the first few months they have depreciated by up to £13K already. Ooer!

The difference in rate of loss of capital pays for a heck of a lot of petrol, so whatever savings you are getting by recharging from 230v mains are unlikely significantly to narrow the overall lifetime cost difference.

Anyway, this new totalitarian Labour Government hates all ICE cars including plug-in and self-charging hybrids. They are going to try to get both of us to give up our cars.
 
Gromett said:
No it is not rationing. Rationing suggests restrictions.

That is not what is being suggested. If you want to charge at peak times you will still be able to, you just won't benefit from the best prices.
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Any variable pricing system that deters the less well-off consumer from using their home electric appliances whenever they would otherwise wish is effectively a demand rationing system. The intention is to reduce peak demand. I would have thought you could agree instead of trying to make unreal distinctions.

Restrictions will have to be implemented otherwise Net Zero 2050 is an impossibility. That's further down the line. NG has drawn attention to this in its Future Scenarios document. We have also been warned about rolling blackouts in certain crisis situations.
 
SpeedyDux said:
Your scorn for self-charging hybrids is misplaced. Here are some real-world facts:

Your plug-in hybrid Audi has an on-the-road price @ £37K. My hybrid Jazz cost @ £22K new. Which car is likely to depreciate the most? I see some 2024 used Audis like yours ones with 5K mileage advertised for £24K so in the first few months they have depreciated by up to £13K already. Ooer!
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I probably should have reserved my scorn for those manufacturers who do a minimal job of hybridising their cars just for the marketing brownie points. Sounds like yours is very good which is no surprise as Honda tend to do great engineering. My sister has the same car and is very happy with it.

Our cars meet different needs, but ours meets our needs perfectly. At times it has been months between petrol fill ups due to its 35 mile electric range (more like 30 in the real world), so the mpg deficit is not a major concern especially given the performance benefits which we occasionally enjoy!

Regarding depreciation, we are not daft - we bought ours as a dealer registered car at six months old with about 5K miles, for not too much more than your £24k figure! My wife bought it with an inheritance from her mother who specifically suggested she treat herself to a new car, so maybe a bit more of a luxury purchase than we might have made otherwise, but no regrets.
 
SpeedyDux said:
Any variable pricing system that deters the less well-off consumer from using their home electric appliances whenever they would otherwise wish is effectively a demand rationing system. The intention is to reduce peak demand. I would have thought you could agree instead of trying to make unreal distinctions.
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Why would I agree with you abusing the english language to make a political point when it is inaccurate? You are trying to make it sound worse than it is using a loaded word where it is not applicable in any way.

The definition of rationing is;
1725640121596.png


They are not saying each person is only allowed 10KWh for example per day/week. That would be rationing.
They are saying that if you take a specific contract on you get cheaper electric at specific times of the day and we may disable charging for short periods of extremely high demand. You are NOT forced to take this contract. You have no limitations on the amount of electric you can use. You are not rationed.

Or are you telling me that trains are rationed due to peak pricing? Or that London Black Cabs charging more at night is rationing?

You are using the word ration to provoke "memories" or world war 2 style restrictions which is not what is happening. Using this word is scaremongering.

So no, I will not agree and no it is not an unreal distinction it is a very practical and real distinction. I am surprised that you keep banging this drum when it is patently obvious you have used the wrong word.
 
Gromett said:
Why would I agree with you abusing the english language to make a political point when it is inaccurate? You are trying to make it sound worse than it is using a loaded word where it is not applicable in any way.

The definition of rationing is;
View attachment 945443

They are not saying each person is only allowed 10KWh for example per day/week. That would be rationing.
They are saying that if you take a specific contract on you get cheaper electric at specific times of the day and we may disable charging for short periods of extremely high demand. You are NOT forced to take this contract. You have no limitations on the amount of electric you can use. You are not rationed.

Or are you telling me that trains are rationed due to peak pricing? Or that London Black Cabs charging more at night is rationing?

You are using the word ration to provoke "memories" or world war 2 style restrictions which is not what is happening. Using this word is scaremongering.

So no, I will not agree and no it is not an unreal distinction it is a very practical and real distinction. I am surprised that you keep banging this drum when it is patently obvious you have used the wrong word.
Click to expand...

You have chosen a definition of rationing that suits your position. I used rationing in the economic / price rationing sense.

Two can play that game:

" Prices ration scarce resources when demand outstrips supply"

so NER :moon2:
 
Jon Stewart said:
You do know you could sail one boat between the locations?

I mean, that's what crew is for! 😜👀🤦‍♂️
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I thought they just parked them in the harbour as a luxury party accommodation!

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