Upgrading to lithium advice please.

[Raul]

As I said I would take anything they say with a large pinch of salt.
I have a 230AH LifePo4 with a 200 amp BMS and a 2,000 watt inverter.
I have seen the inverter drawing a continuous 184 amps so a 150 amp BMS would not supply enough power.
In one paragraph on their site they say there is no need to change chargers as lead acid chargers work fine with their batteries.
Yet another paragraph says if you want to get the best out of your battery fit "lithium specific chargers".
Also there is no mention that some lead acid chargers have a desulfation stage, which is a voltage their batteries definitely won't like.

I would not push a BMS to its full rating for to long. A max 70% load for long periods are plenty. The mosfets inside can get very hot, and most bms'es are set stupidly high as 100-110C for mosfet protection. I change all my settings and mosfets set at 80C. If mosfets fail, they will fail closed, meaning all the amps are free to flow, close to short circuit current. In that instance, you will need a high rupture over current device like classT or NH or a DC breaker to open- extinguish a 7-8ka arc.

 

[jumar]

Unless you are in Galicia today, coz it's pi**ing down as we speak and will be all day apparently. Solar panel is giving 17W...

Barrie we are wise to the weather differences in Spain....that's why, although our apartment is in Murcia we Spend the summer mainly in Galicia...half the Murcian temperature...
However we generally leave mid September as the seasons change and instability takes over...Now we are in Aragon Bajo...it's clear blue sky and 23^c...

 

[headlight]

I would not push a BMS to its full rating for to long. A max 70% load for long periods are plenty. The mosfets inside can get very hot, and most bms'es are set stupidly high as 100-110C for mosfet protection. I change all my settings and mosfets set at 80C. If mosfets fail, they will fail closed, meaning all the amps are free to flow, close to short circuit current. In that instance, you will need a high rupture over current device like classT or NH or a DC breaker to open- extinguish a 7-8ka arc.

I don't run my 2,000 watt inverter at full power, normally no more than 1,500 watts about 145amps so about 75% but when I first had it I did once push it just to see.

 

[wfdTamar]

Have you spoken to the manufacturers at Lithiumpro ?
They say the BMS in their batteries will cope with existing chargers but they will obviously not charge as well.

You'll note I said 'There is no such thing as a drop in lithium without risk of damage or limiting the new battery'. I meant damage to the alternator as well as the battery and/or limiting the capacity and life of the battery. There's no contradiction there.

I assume you mean this site? Helps if you link to who you're talking about.

RE31130 12.8V 129Ah Lithium Ion Battery

Renewable Energy series is made for applications that can benefit from fast recharge, superior charge efficiency, weight reduction, and cycle lives beyond 2,000 cycles. The RE series is built with Lithium Iron Phosphate cells tested to the UL1642 standard. It is recommended for solar energy...

lithiumpros.com

I'm in Australia, but travel in Europe, so I know the markets in Australia, UK and some of Europe (but not so much the US). LiFePO4 (let's just use lithium) is the same worldwide though.

I've bought cheap and expensive 100Ah batteries and DIY built a 626Ah/ 250 Amp one. Each country has it's own lithium battery 'manufacturers' (actually assemblers). In the early days they could get away with charging these sort of prices as components prices (particularly the cells) were high. Some still do keep those charges high as long as people buy them. That's called 'milking the early adopters and naive'. Or 'good business'. (BTW, I'm not suggesting a cheap battery is the same as a quality battery, just that the price difference isn't justified)

At US$928 that's an extremely expensive battery. That's how they can afford to offer a 7 year warranty (I'll exclude the BS 10 year thing). Warranty conditions exclude incorrect charging, so I wonder if you did use that AGM spec charger if they'd cover it (you'd have to think so as they suggest its ok).

Regardless, the battery won't explode in your face, or burn your van down (unless your alternator sets fire to your engine bay) if you don't use Lithium chargers, but it wont last as long or give it's best. So people that say they 'did a drop in and it's fine' are ignorant of how much more fine it would be if they had the correct chargers. Or they haven't yet fried their alternator.

 

[wfdTamar]

Oh sod, ran out of editing time. I wanted to change the post above to this:

Have you spoken to the manufacturers at Lithiumpro ? They say the BMS in their batteries will cope with existing chargers but they will obviously not charge as well.

You'll note I said 'There is no such thing as a drop in lithium without risk of damage or limiting the new battery'. I meant possible damage to the alternator and/or the battery and/or limiting the capacity and lifetime of the battery. Not 'it will', but 'it could'. A risk, not a certainty. There's no contradiction there.

I assume you mean this site? Helps if you link to who you're talking about.

Just found the UK one you mean:

LithiumPro Energy – Advanced Lithium Batteries for Motorhomes, Campervans and boats and Boats

Lithium leisure Batteries. Intelligent batteries for caravans motorhomes, campervans caravans and boats

www.lithiumpro.co.uk

I'm in Australia, but travel in Europe, so I know the markets in Australia, UK and some of Europe. LiFePO4 (let's just use lithium) is the same worldwide though. Just priced differently.

I've bought cheap and expensive 100Ah batteries and DIY built a 626Ah/ 250 Amp one. Each country has it's own lithium battery 'manufacturers' (actually assemblers). In the early days they could get away with charging high prices as components prices (particularly the cells) were high. Some still do keep those charges high as long as people buy them. That's called 'milking the early adopters and naive'. Or 'good business'. (BTW, I'm not suggesting a cheap battery is the same as a quality battery, just that the price difference isn't justified).

The battery won't explode in your face, or burn your van down (unless your alternator sets fire to your engine bay) if you don't use Lithium chargers, but it wont last as long or give it's best. So people that say they 'did a drop in and it's fine' are ignorant of how much more fine (and safe) it would be if they had the correct chargers. Or they haven't yet fried their alternator.

I'm just a mug punter, self taught DIY'er. There are people on here that know more than me. Problem is when you get people that know a lot, then they're often in the biz and some are old dogs that can't learn new tricks, or might have questionable ethics (i.e. might push their preference or product, even if it's not the best thing for you). But then you get a person like me that knows a bit and might only push the few options they've tried.

LiFePO4 cells generally can discharge at 1C (i.e. 100 Amps for a 100Ah cell). If you push them higher than that you'll limit their life. They are best used between 20 & 80% capacity. Again if you push above and below that you'll limit their life. By 'life' I mean the number of cycles. A cycle is generally accepted as being going from 80% to 20% and back to 80%. This company is suggesting doing both those things. As a couple of people have mentioned their claims for what you can run from their battery (I'm looking at the 105Ah one) don't add up. A 2000 watt inverter from a 105Ah battery is just a bad idea if not even impossible. That might run things like say, an air fryer, which you might have on for 30 minutes. Even if it could run it, and for that long, I very much doubt it'll get 1000's of cycles.

I suspect they're counting on people not using a battery to its full capability. I mean no-one (or very few people) is going to use a battery right from 80% down to 20% at full Amp capability day after day.[/URL]

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[wfdTamar]

Looking at the LithiumPro range they only have small ones (100-175Ah), a 280Ah seatbase, then one big one of 460Ah (which is £200 more and lower spec than Roamer or Fogstar). Roamer and particularly Fogstar have a better range (better spec and cheaper too). If I were buying again in the UK I'd be looking at Fogstar as they have their cheap ones (Drift Eco) that compete with the likes of EcoWorthy and the decent range and capacity Drift and Drift Pro. They also tell us what's inside. A brand name BMS and Eve cells.

BTW they all claim 'Grade A' cells. That's just a BS marketing term the Chinese cell market use that means nothing. Cells are either tested & passed for use in EV's or home battery storage - the rest are sold off for any other use, bought in bulk by Chinese resellers who randomly slap labels like Grade A on them. It means nothing. It's basically a little kid running alongside a GI saying 'Hey Johnny, me sell you tip top, number one, Grade A cell mister'.

Also look at these ones (both their own and the Fogstar they have) 10% off for us.

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