Upgrading to lithium advice please.

[Cush]

VSR really not a good idea with a lifepo4. Most will empty your lithium in to the starter battery to a significantly depleted level. he lithium sits above the activation level and link both batteries with amps flowing in the direction you do not want.

 

[jumar]

So, for seven years I had 2x 100ah basic lead acid batteries coupled with 120w solar via a PWM controller.
Worked perfectly, was adequate for my needs. No hair dryer, no bikes. Just lights, TV, WiFi and USB charging.
When I killed these aged batteries earlier this year. I considered lithium.
I was lead to believe my existing charging system would be adequate but not optimal.
But my fitters wouldn't risk it. The quote for 280ah lithium and associated bits was over £1500.
Discussion suggested I actually didn't need lithium and fitting 2x 100ah gels would actually give me extra capacity for a quarter of the cost (probably 40% after upgrading the solar controller)

So do you need lithium, or just want it?

Good points there...not everyone needs a Lithium set-up, for example those who are happy to hook up with an occasional night without..
On the other hand....those...like ourselves who do not hook up and are self contained...to add to this we are heavy users, being daily eBike riders...therefore Lithium has turned out to be a game changer for us....and we are upgrading just now to even more usable amps...

 

[Langtoftlad]

with an occasional night without

Planned four nights , so perhaps more than an occasional night.
+ as you said you are heavy users, so lithium is justified in your case.

 

[GerTee]

Our twopence advice is talk to RogerIvy about any potential upgrades. We are not experts in all things elecktrickery but with Roger's advice now have a great off-grid setup.

 

[Wanders from Glos]

We second the above. We are moving to Lithium and his advice so far has been carefully thought through based on what we will be using it for. We are putting in a new MPPT, B2B, Multiplus Inverter and Battery Monitor. I am relatively handy at this sort of thing but decided I just don’t know enough. I also got a second opinion before booking.

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[jumar]

Got an email from UPS advising that our second Roamer Lithium battery will be here this afternoon....I've prepared the van, the drivers seat is out...cables made up..let's see how long this final addition takes...I've got gus-lopez on standby...but I think I've managed the hardest parts...
I will disconnect the original Lithium for now and run with the new 230ah so it gets fully charged...as per the advice received...when both batteries are at 100% 1 shall connect them and see how they behave...each battery will have its own BMS and separate Roamer apps....the Victron smartshunt should give me an accumulative readout...

 

[Wanders from Glos]

Got an email from UPS advising that our second Roamer Lithium battery will be here this afternoon....I've prepared the van, the drivers seat is out...cables made up..let's see how long this final addition takes...I've got gus-lopez on standby...but I think I've managed the hardest parts...
I will disconnect the original Lithium for now and run with the new 230ah so it gets fully charged...as per the advice received...when both batteries are at 100% 1 shall connect them and see how they behave...each battery will have its own BMS and separate Roamer apps....the Victron smartshunt should give me an accumulative readout..

Sounds good, I assume the first battery is 230ah as well? From memory you didn’t find that to be enough on your travels? Was that because you used the inverter to charge the bike batteries quite a bit?

 

[Langtoftlad]

Just a "non lithium" update:
Completed 4 nights off grid, batteries never went below 84% and were fully recharged by the 120w solar panel by mid morning.

So don't assume that the expense of going lithium is necessarily your only option.

 

[Wanders from Glos]

Yes we did three days comfortably so

Just a "non lithium" update:
Completed 4 nights off grid, batteries never went below 84% and were fully recharged by the 120w solar panel by mid morning.

So don't assume that the expense of going lithium is necessarily your only option.

I take your point we have just done three days without EHU comfortably. So agree it is not automatically a better option given cost.

But we are now on a site so we can charge batteries on PC and bikes whereas with lithium we will soon have an inverter. Also the weather has been very good so the solar has been very efficient. Our lead acid battery is also four years old so will be starting to degrade. These are the things that swung it for us.

We’ll still use sites for a bit of R&R but when we want to rather than needing to because we want to recharge.

 

[eddie]

I have the same make of controller and a KS lithium been in van for over 2y and been fine, just set the controller to Gel setting

But it is an appalling, inefficient regulator

There’s a post somewhere where I set up four identical panels so I could run simultaneous tests

The difference was eye opening

The range surprised me 4.9amps top Victron Blue Solar, and just under two amps, being the worst, the one the OP has

Many time my customers on a limited budget were advised to upgrade their regulator rather than adding extra panels

Cheap regulators may work, in the same way a bucket with a hole in ‘will work’

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[eddie]

Hi all,need a bit of help, thinking of fitting lithium battery, but have been told I need to fit a VSR (voltage sensitive relay), to replace what is in van at the moment. Is this correct, and where is it likely to be situated. We have a 2006 Mohican 2.8ltr.

VSR are a cheap bodge used by people who either don’t understand what they’re doing, or, are lazy (normally both!)

Install a VSR, install a dual output regulator or fit a Battery Master to keep the engine battery topped up, the VSR see’s charging voltage and energises, closing the circuit putting everything in parallel with the relay consumption often as great as the solar charge!

All so they don’t have to run a wire to alternator or fit a B2B

 

[jumar]

Sounds good, I assume the first battery is 230ah as well? From memory you didn’t find that to be enough on your travels? Was that because you used the inverter to charge the bike batteries quite a bit?

Hi...we are heavy users of the recharging of eBikes...out current lithium is adequate...but we want to travel with different options...
Therefore we are doubling our capacity to enable us to use various electric appliances...mainly cooking..for two main reasons going electric is what we need..
Generally speaking during our summers it's too hot to cook inside the van and secondly Fire restrictions prohibit the use of naked flames in the countryside..not only this but many Camperstops allow parking of MHs far too close to each other....it would be very inconsiderate and somewhat dangerous to use a gas appliance in this restricted situation..
For average Motorhomers 230ah is perfectly adequate....but we need to recharge eBikes daily, in cloudless sky's this is fine...but dull or rainy days this could be challenging..
I bet you wished you hadn't asked..

 

[Wanders from Glos]

Hi...we are heavy users of the recharging of eBikes...out current lithium is adequate...but we want to travel with different options...
Therefore we are doubling our capacity to enable us to use various electric appliances...mainly cooking..for two main reasons going electric is what we need..
Generally speaking during our summers it's too hot to cook inside the van and secondly Fire restrictions prohibit the use of naked flames in the countryside..not only this but many Camperstops allow parking of MHs far too close to each other....it would be very inconsiderate and somewhat dangerous to use a gas appliance in this restricted situation..
For average Motorhomers 230ah is perfectly adequate....but we need to recharge eBikes daily, in cloudless sky's this is fine...but dull or rainy days this could be challenging..
I bet you wished you hadn't asked..

No O am grateful for the detailed reply. I hadn’t thought about the vans close together and our Cadac. We don’t need to recharge bikes every day but certainly every two or three, the same with the PC. We are going for 290ah, which sounds like it will be enough from what you have said.

 

[jumar]

No O am grateful for the detailed reply. I hadn’t thought about the vans close together and our Cadac. We don’t need to recharge bikes every day but certainly every two or three, the same with the PC. We are going for 290ah, which sounds like it will be enough from what you have said.

We are 100% off grid....I imagine the 290ah would serve you well..
A important factor is getting power back into the battery....either by DC2DC or by Solar, for us being in Spain 365 days it's not challenging other than we choose to put the van out of the summer heat...then the larger capacity batteries and a portable solar panel provides well....

 

[Wanders from Glos]

We are 100% off grid....I imagine the 290ah would serve you well..
A important factor is getting power back into the battery....either by DC2DC or by Solar, for us being in Spain 365 days it's not challenging other than we choose to put the van out of the summer heat...then the larger capacity batteries and a portable solar panel provides well....

The plan is for us to have both. We already have solar and don’t want to as any more due to weight, so we took as a Victron DC2DC.

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[jumar]

The plan is for us to have both. We already have solar and don’t want to as any more due to weight, so we took as a Victron DC2DC.

A good choice...

 

[Wanders from Glos]

A good choice...

To be fair, I took advice I’m out of my depth on this.

 

[jumar]

To be fair, I took advice I’m out of my depth on this.

Me too....but have learnt many things from knowledgeable folk on Fun....

 

[POH]

We plan on asking your advice when we upgrade Lenny but don’t worry we won’t ask you to actually do it!!

if you ask nicely he might pay for it as well

 

[carolyn]

if you ask nicely he might pay for it as well

Haha. We did in fact get the lithium package from Consort as we only had less than 4 weeks before collecting van and heading off on our 2 month trip to Romania, Bulgaria and back up the Danube to its source. We had our daughters wedding in the middle!

We have had hookup available but haven’t always used it to see how it worked. We have had 3 days with cloudy weather and one of heavy rain, the hookup was 3A so not good so didn’t use it. The first proper test. It dropped to 69% . The sun came out and it shot back up!

We’re in Bulgaria now but Romania was amazing.

Everything has proper names except the MPPT controller which is unbranded and Chinese.

Loving the van. Hope I haven’t jinxed it. Fingers crossed and touching wood.

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[TheLifeofBrian]

There is no such thing as a drop in lithium without risk of damage or limiting the new battery.

If you don't want to go to the expense of a decent lithium, B2B, battery monitor with shunt and the possible new chargers (and installation cost if not DIY installing), then a far simpler and very likely simple drop in and change charger setting (to Gel) is a lead carbon gel battery. Really good option. £190 for a 110Ah (88Ah usable), 750 cycles at 80% discharge.

Have you spoken to the manufacturers at Lithiumpro ?
They say the BMS in their batteries will cope with existing chargers but they will obviously not charge as well.

 

[eddie]

Have you spoken to the manufacturers at Lithiumpro ?
They say the BMS in their batteries will cope with existing chargers but they will obviously not charge as well.

Why?

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

Why?

According to them your existing charging setup can be used with their battery.
wfdTamar says: There is no such thing as a drop in lithium without risk of damage or limiting the new battery.
Those statements contradict each other so I was asking if he knew about Lithiumpro and their claim?

 

[eddie]

My point, I have always argued there is no such thing as a “drop in” replacement lithium battery, unless the existing equipment is all lithium compatible

Those businesses erroneously “claim” it’s a drop in replacement all have caveats in the small print.

There is no point spending the money on lithium unless your getting the true benefits, IE deep discharge, ultra fast recharge

I’m sure someone will be along soon to disagree claiming they swapped to lithium and made no changes, but they will have a system that simply is not performing as well as it could/should and the argument that they never run out of power, simply suggests to me that they didn’t really need lithium anyway

Hot Swap Lead Acid For Lithium

EDDIE ‘VANBITZ’ JONES DISCUSSES LITHIUM LOTS OF OPINIONS ON THIS ONE SO WE THOUGHT WE’D ASK EDDIE JONES OF VANBITZ, FIRST, WHAT HE MADE OF THE RUSH TO INSTALL LIFEP04 AND WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT STRAIGHT SWAPS, LEAD-ACID OUT, LITHIUM IN I would just like to state that I am not a chemist, although...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

My point, I have always argued there is no such thing as a “drop in” replacement lithium battery, unless the existing equipment is all lithium compatible

Those businesses erroneously “claim” it’s a drop in replacement all have caveats in the small print.

There is no point spending the money on lithium unless your getting the true benefits, IE deep discharge, ultra fast recharge

I’m sure someone will be along soon to disagree claiming they swapped to lithium and made no changes, but they will have a system that simply is performing as well as it could/should and the argue they never rum out of power, simply suggests to me that they didn’t really need lithium anyway

Thanks Eddie, I agree. Some companies claims about drop in replacement seems just about the size!
I like hearing people's comments about these upgrades. I think with any sort of 'electronics' there are advances constantly - almost weekly it seems, so I'm interested in hearing opinions about Lithiumpro after talking to them at the Lincoln show. My GEL's died & I'm looking to get lithium (for the 50kg weight saving as much as anything!) but could do without the extra £1000 cost for new chargers straight away!
Can I just ask what the main difference is between lithium & lead iron chargers - Is it voltage or current or both? People keep saying Lead iron chargers will damage lithium batteries - is that through too much current or too high voltage? Surely the BMS should sort that out? I understand they won't charge the lithium to anywhere near it's true potential and as you say that is really a waste of installing them

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[headlight]

Thanks Eddie, I agree. Some companies claims about drop in replacement seems just about the size!
I like hearing people's comments about these upgrades. I think with any sort of 'electronics' there are advances constantly - almost weekly it seems, so I'm interested in hearing opinions about Lithiumpro after talking to them at the Lincoln show. My GEL's died & I'm looking to get lithium (for the 50kg weight saving as much as anything!) but could do without the extra £1000 cost for new chargers straight away!

I just looked on Lithium Pro's website.
Their website contains contradictory advice on charging and performance.
They claim their 105AH battery will continuously power a 2,000 watt inverter because it has a 150 amp BMS.
A 2,000 watt inverter takes at least 170 amps as far as I know so I don't know how they come to that conclusion.
Their 105AH battery is twice the price of a Fogstar 105AH and has half the warranty, 5 years as opposed to 10 years.
Personally I would take their claims with a large pinch of salt.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

I just looked on Lithium Pro's website.
Their website contains contradictory advice on charging and performance.
They claim their 105AH battery will continuously power a 2,000 watt inverter because it has a 150 amp BMS.
A 2,000 watt inverter takes at least 170 amps as far as I know so I don't know how they come to that conclusion.
Their 105AH battery is twice the price of a Fogstar 105AH and has half the warranty, 5 years as opposed to 10 years.
Personally I would take their claims with a large pinch of salt.

Thanks - that's exactly the sort of point I am looking for. I'm at the Malvern show & they are here so I'll go & ask them

 

[headlight]

Thanks - that's exactly the sort of point I am looking for. I'm at the Malvern show & they are here so I'll go & ask them

As I said I would take anything they say with a large pinch of salt.
I have a 230AH LifePo4 with a 200 amp BMS and a 2,000 watt inverter.
I have seen the inverter drawing a continuous 184 amps so a 150 amp BMS would not supply enough power.
In one paragraph on their site they say there is no need to change chargers as lead acid chargers work fine with their batteries.
Yet another paragraph says if you want to get the best out of your battery fit "lithium specific chargers".
Also there is no mention that some lead acid chargers have a desulfation stage, which is a voltage their batteries definitely won't like.

 

[Barriesimpson]

for us being in Spain 365 days it's not challenging

Unless you are in Galicia today, coz it's pi**ing down as we speak and will be all day apparently. Solar panel is giving 17W...

 

[Raul]

Thanks Eddie, I agree. Some companies claims about drop in replacement seems just about the size!
I like hearing people's comments about these upgrades. I think with any sort of 'electronics' there are advances constantly - almost weekly it seems, so I'm interested in hearing opinions about Lithiumpro after talking to them at the Lincoln show. My GEL's died & I'm looking to get lithium (for the 50kg weight saving as much as anything!) but could do without the extra £1000 cost for new chargers straight away!
Can I just ask what the main difference is between lithium & lead iron chargers - Is it voltage or current or both? People keep saying Lead iron chargers will damage lithium batteries - is that through too much current or too high voltage? Surely the BMS should sort that out? I understand they won't charge the lithium to anywhere near it's true potential and as you say that is really a waste of installing them

Eddy was steering you in the right direction. BMS can act as a switch for over current, but it's NOT a current limiter device, that HAS to be taken care by charger-chargers for charging, and for loads by design. Your max loads should never exceed bms capability.
You can NOT drop in a Lithium, and expect the BMS to do the charger's task, plain wrong. The lithium charging regime and stages are pretty simple, constant power till you hit absorb, then goes to constant voltage for a SET time, and finish; nothing else. Lead acid chargers do not offer this two stage charging, and most do not have adjustable parameters for absorb, float, or time, or even tail current setting. On Lithium we adjust float to a value to make float charging NIL. Lithium does not needed it, nor is it healthy for long time.

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