UK power generation and powering our Motorhomes.

[DandJ]

With care...some of these systems (31kwh^) have several days of autonomy from a power outage. When we lived in the UK, we had an outage for about 48hrs when a storm blew threw perhaps 4 years ago. Many people seemed to go into meltdown....emptying the small supermarket shelves (don't people have a few days worth of food in their house nowadays?) but many having no way of cooking stuff...or heating their homes...so many de-camped to the pub (which wasn't part of the area with power cut) Few had torches so used the torch function on their phones...then flattened their batteries quickly so...off to the pub to charge them up....
It felt like common sense was quickly 'leaving the building' and I very much doubt that many of the above in my post, have altered how they do stuff....no doubt still having a £50 phone contract, a £50 gym contract but failing miserably to buy a £10 torch, or £20 portable gas stove to warm soup up should the need arise......

 

[Tim P]

Ok so here is my five pennyworth.
My BIL is a plumber and he informs me 99 out of 100 houses in the UK (including new builds) are not suitable for heat pumps without major re-configuration. The pipe work required for standard heating is 15mm whilst heat pumps require 22mm. So all pipework has to be replaced... think that through, most of the heating pipes nowadays are hidden in the walls and in the floor screed. You would either have to go surface or rip down walls and dig up floors. Heat pumps are very good for underfloor heating, where you set the thermostat, it slowly gets up to temperature and then stays there 24/7 not so good at flicking on and off like most of us do. I also have a cousin who lives in Umea (inside the arctic circle) in Sweden. He has a ground source heat pump....in permafrost! They drilled straight down outside his front door through the permafrost into the warmer rock beneath. I seem to remember he said they drilled down 50m. It works, cost a fortune, but works. So it can be done but not easily! Until the planning authorities insist that new builds are built to suit solar power and heat pumps. At present not a chance, the planning authorities are years behind the time, they cant even get to grips with the new fire regulations that came in after the Grenfill tower disaster, let alone "optional" new power requirements. Do new build houses have car charging points as standard? Not yet. They don't even have to have off road parking, as standard!

 

[autorouter]

My BIL is a plumber and he informs me 99 out of 100 houses in the UK (including new builds) are not suitable for heat pumps without major re-configuration. The pipe work required for standard heating is 15mm whilst heat pumps require 22mm. So all pipework has to be replaced...

Your BIL is misinformed. I can only suggest that he considers taking a training course on heatgeek.com to update his knowledge on modern heatpumps.

Installers - HeatGeek

www.heatgeek.com

 

[starquake]

Ok so here is my five pennyworth.
My BIL is a plumber and he informs me 99 out of 100 houses in the UK (including new builds) are not suitable for heat pumps without major re-configuration.

So he's saying he hasn't heard of the new high temperature heatpumps that work just fine on the smaller microbore plumbing then. Should add these produce higher flow temperatures than a gas boiler with a decent COP. So basically if these don't work a gas boiler wouldn't either.

Suggest he goes on a training course as he's far from up to date on current heatpumps. Should add this is far from unusual, our plumber thought the same until we pointed him at the relevant training materials -> many are still making the majority of money from gas so you can't blame their lack of knowledge.

Edit -> to add that heatpumps won't work on all properties still, but the number they won't work on now is actually quite small -> those without room for a water tank (due to combi's being so popular now) are commonly not easily done, but if you have a gravity fed hot water system (we do) you are a prime easy simple swap candidate, as the boiler can literally just be swapped for a heatpump with only really a control electronics upgrade.

It's certainally not 99/100 more like 20/100 are not suitable.

 

[autorouter]

It's certainally not 99/100 more like 20/100 are not suitable.

It's a lot less than 20/100 if you add one of those new small water tank heater units that fits under a kitchen worktop. It solves the problem of where to put a hot water tank when you take out a combi boiler.

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[Tim P]

I stand corrected about heat pumps, however the planning bit is still correct. For a largish housing development, it can take 10 years between first proposal and laying the first brick. The plans getting approved reasonably early on, so the houses are already out of date before they are even started!

 

[RandallC]

more of this:

Sustainability and Impact is part of our DNA | Gore Street Energy Storage Fund plc

www.gsenergystoragefund.com

less of this:
View attachment 1000115

Just to provide a bit of balance in respect to the picture.
The 2 small chimneys to the right are the outlets for flue gas. The huge clouds from the fat cooling towers to the left is steam/water vapour only.
The cooling towers return the steam turbine exhaust back to water.

 

[The Wino]

I stand corrected about heat pumps, however the planning bit is still correct. For a largish housing development, it can take 10 years between first proposal and laying the first brick. The plans getting approved reasonably early on, so the houses are already out of date before they are even started!

Our son is looking at new houses on Scotland they have a dedicated parking space with an EV charger!
As you say this should be a requirement in the planning laws if not an e v charger the cable installed ready for one.

 

[The Wino]

Just to provide a bit of balance in respect to the picture.
The 2 small chimneys to the right are the outlets for flue gas. The huge clouds from the fat cooling towers to the left is steam/water vapour only.
The cooling towers return the steam turbine exhaust back to water.

I think someone has already pointed that out although just because you don't see clouds of pollution doesn't mean there isn't any or of course that there's no greenhouse gas emissions you can't burn fossil fuels without.

 

[mikash]

So he's saying he hasn't heard of the new high temperature heatpumps that work just fine on the smaller microbore plumbing then. Should add these produce higher flow temperatures than a gas boiler with a decent COP. So basically if these don't work a gas boiler wouldn't either.

It is as if with any relatively new technology. People are not keeping up with the development and hang on to notions that were true 5, 10 or even 20 years ago.
We get that a lot here too. Some peoplle are still entirely convinced that even air to air pumps don't work in arctic climates and never will, while others arhave been happily keeping their homes toasty with them for years already. Air to water admittedly is not quite there yet, with even the top models shutting down the compressor at -25 - -30c and running resistive heating only but I don't think the limits of the technology have been reached yet there either. How's ground-source pumps in UK btw? Here we have recently seen quite a few apartment buildings switching over to that.

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[mikash]

Our son is looking at new houses on Scotland they have a dedicated parking space with an EV charger!
As you say this should be a requirement in the planning laws if not an e v charger the cable installed ready for one.

I think here was just put forward some national laws implementing some EU-wide directive that mandates new properties (both residential and commercial) to be built with certain minimum charging capabilities. Also major renovation of old properties.

 

[The Wino]

I think here was just put forward some national laws implementing some EU-wide directive that mandates new properties (both residential and commercial) to be built with certain minimum charging capabilities. Also major renovation of old properties.

Is that just in Scotland?. If so sounds like I'm at the backward end of the country!

Edit....just spotted the flag!

 

[oldiesontour]

We have recently finished a self(not built for) build bungalow..we were forced to have 3 phase to the meter cupboard(for EV charger and heat pump).We were also forced to have solar panels(to help offset co emissions,and an insulated 150mm cavity.all in all fairly green and building regs will become even tighter this year.So did I have a heat pump ?
No.Why purchase,installation and running costs are way in excess of the oil fired system I installed ..and likely to remain so for the years I have left.
We seem to be pushed down a road that is going in ever decreasing circles into the dark,first tax car makers for not selling enough EVs,now realise it's only bankrupting Europe's car industry ..so review that policy !
But today I read of a new boiler tax same principle as ICE penalty scheme but for boiler manufacturers to be penalised for not seenough Heat pumps..another thing millipede has slipped through quitely,under the guise of not needing to rely on expensive gas imports ?? We import both gas and electricity so lower 1 up goes the other,whilst banning all new fossil fuel exploration at home how is transporting anything greener than use it at point of origin ?
And all this while the same government say UK flooding will get worse but we don't have money for flood defences.
But we are a world leader in the green revolution..or should that be a world leader in exporting our pollution and our money to foreign owned companies,one big local success is wind turbines be made in Hull....by
that well known British company Siemens.
Successive governments would appear to have no complete long term plan,signing upto cop agreements with little or no idea of how to fulfil them

 

[RandallC]

I think someone has already pointed that out although just because you don't see clouds of pollution doesn't mean there isn't any or of course that there's no greenhouse gas emissions you can't burn fossil fuels without.

Not sure how these posts get ordered
BUT
At time of reply to post 9, no other post were visible, my reply to post 9 gets logged as post 97.

???????

 

[enark]

So he's saying he hasn't heard of the new high temperature heatpumps that work just fine on the smaller microbore plumbing then. Should add these produce higher flow temperatures than a gas boiler with a decent COP. So basically if these don't work a gas boiler wouldn't either.

Suggest he goes on a training course as he's far from up to date on current heatpumps. Should add this is far from unusual, our plumber thought the same until we pointed him at the relevant training materials -> many are still making the majority of money from gas so you can't blame their lack of knowledge.

Edit -> to add that heatpumps won't work on all properties still, but the number they won't work on now is actually quite small -> those without room for a water tank (due to combi's being so popular now) are commonly not easily done, but if you have a gravity fed hot water system (we do) you are a prime easy simple swap candidate, as the boiler can literally just be swapped for a heatpump with only really a control electronics upgrade.

It's certainally not 99/100 more like 20/100 are not suitable.

Wow these sound great..

Cost?

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[starquake]

Wow these sound great..

Cost?

Octopus energy are doing them, friend got a quote and was about same as a (gas) boiler replacement in his case (around £3.5k total in his case, gas was quoted as near same).

The answer is buy (soon) as they are subject to a healthy subsidy at moment making them price equivelent in many cases (to gas).

If you need lots of work, it'll work out slightly more than gas -> so really depends on your property.

 

[enark]

Octopus energy are doing them, friend got a quote and was about same as a (gas) boiler replacement in his case (around £3.5k total in his case, gas was quoted as near same).

The answer is buy (soon) as they are subject to a healthy subsidy at moment making them price equivelent in many cases (to gas).

If you need lots of work, it'll work out slightly more than gas -> so really depends on your property.

I presently burn about £600 of oil per a year, looking at the running costs of an air source, its at least double that.

Plus installation..

Plus it wont run the Aga

So not sure i see a business case?

 

[starquake]

I presently burn about £600 of oil per a year, looking at the running costs of an air source, its at least double that.

Plus installation..

Plus it wont run the Aga

So not sure i see a business case?

It won't run an Aga, but the price is obviously a lot cheaper per unit if you have Solar/battery and can buy electricity at 7p a unit.
If you go all-in on a modern eco-system, it's equivalent of gas at under 2p a unit (which is better than oil).

So it IS possible to have a air source heat pump and pay less than any other heat source for house.

A friend runs one without battery and his costs him under £600 a year in additional electricity. He uses Octpus flex, and the heat pump system is basically set to heat up above temperature before the peak period, then lower temp during peak, then go to a normal rest temperature post peak in evening.

It really ultimately depends if you are tied to using a fixed price electricity deal or if you're willing to go on a heat pump specific tariff (or similar EV tariff).

 

[The Wino]

We have recently finished a self(not built for) build bungalow..we were forced to have 3 phase to the meter cupboard(for EV charger and heat pump).We were also forced to have solar panels(to help offset co emissions,and an insulated 150mm cavity.all in all fairly green and building regs will become even tighter this year.So did I have a heat pump ?
No.Why purchase,installation and running costs are way in excess of the oil fired system I installed ..and likely to remain so for the years I have left.
We seem to be pushed down a road that is going in ever decreasing circles into the dark,first tax car makers for not selling enough EVs,now realise it's only bankrupting Europe's car industry ..so review that policy !
But today I read of a new boiler tax same principle as ICE penalty scheme but for boiler manufacturers to be penalised for not seenough Heat pumps..another thing millipede has slipped through quitely,under the guise of not needing to rely on expensive gas imports ?? We import both gas and electricity so lower 1 up goes the other,whilst banning all new fossil fuel exploration at home how is transporting anything greener than use it at point of origin ?
And all this while the same government say UK flooding will get worse but we don't have money for flood defences.
But we are a world leader in the green revolution..or should that be a world leader in exporting our pollution and our money to foreign owned companies,one big local success is wind turbines be made in Hull....by
that well known British company Siemens.
Successive governments would appear to have no complete long term plan,signing upto cop agreements with little or no idea of how to fulfil them

I think the reason British companies aren't involved in the infrastructure for the green revolution is actually a lack of long term planning and sticking to it. The car manufacturers are saying more or less the same stick to the targets and we can plan for it. Of course we are losing out to the Chinese on ev production but aren't we on everything I see quite a few new Chinese coaches around lately that aren't EVs I suspect if we didn't have green targets we would be trying to stop imports of conventional cars.

 

[enark]

It won't run an Aga, but the price is obviously a lot cheaper per unit if you have Solar/battery and can buy electricity at 7p a unit.
If you go all-in on a modern eco-system, it's equivalent of gas at under 2p a unit (which is better than oil).

So it IS possible to have a air source heat pump and pay less than any other heat source for house.

A friend runs one without battery and his costs him under £600 a year in additional electricity. He uses Octpus flex, and the heat pump system is basically set to heat up above temperature before the peak period, then lower temp during peak, then go to a normal rest temperature post peak in evening.

It really ultimately depends if you are tied to using a fixed price electricity deal or if you're willing to go on a heat pump specific tariff (or similar EV tariff).

Iguess so, but only if your prepared to pay a whole heap of cash up front to convert.

Which will take many years to break even?

And still not run the Aga.

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[autorouter]

That’s what I have, along with 31kwh of Fogstar batteries and a split consumer unit to supply ‘emergency’ circuits like boiler, pc etc directly from the MP2
I would not change the Solaredge inverter as I’m extremely happy with it along with the relevant optimisers

Another possibility is to fit an MPPT solar controller to charge your batteries (which are I presume 48V), and a switchover on the solar panel high voltage DC feeds to switch between the Solaredge inverter input and the new MPPT solar controller input.

That would make it entirely independent and off-grid during a power cut, but grid-tied when the grid is working so you can sell power back to the grid if it's worth it.

 

[autorouter]

How's ground-source pumps in UK btw? Here we have recently seen quite a few apartment buildings switching over to that.

Communal heating schemes, with ground-source heat pumps or anything else, are just not a UK thing. Quite popular outside UK though, when I rented a flat in Stuttgart while working there, the apartment blocks had heating pipes with communal heating.

 

[gus-lopez]

and can buy electricity at 7p a unit.

& therein lies the problem.With all planning you work on worst case scenario = the highest cost for electric.It has to be economically feasible at that amount .If not it is a non starter

 

[starquake]

& therein lies the problem.With all planning you work on worst case scenario = the highest cost for electric.It has to be economically feasible at that amount .If not it is a non starter

I did say if you have solar the cost can nearly be nil (as good chance even in winter you'll produce a good proportion of the sum needed to run such a solution. And if not you can charge a battery on known tariffs.

Fixed rate tariffs are really really not going to be a thing in UK in a few years time. The Octopus heat pump specific tariff (and similar suppliers offer them) show a way the market will likely adapt with cheap prices all the time except 4-7pm (and significantly cheaper overnight, which is when you heat the water tank). The nice thing with these is it also means at peak times you are exporting solar (if you have it) for a significant gain too. Octopus are offering some new build houses with 0 bills guaranteed for several years (I think it's at least 10) due to fact the energy will be in effect 0 used from grid overall over the course of the year.

0 bill households via this technology already exist, so the highest cost of electric is 0. Saying highest cost is the baseline is missing the key point that in effect if you have batteries on the house, the net cost is always the lowest cost not highest.

 

[oldiesontour]

I did say if you have solar the cost can nearly be nil (as good chance even in winter you'll produce a good proportion of the sum needed to run such a solution. And if not you can charge a battery on known tariffs.

Fixed rate tariffs are really really not going to be a thing in UK in a few years time. The Octopus heat pump specific tariff (and similar suppliers offer them) show a way the market will likely adapt with cheap prices all the time except 4-7pm (and significantly cheaper overnight, which is when you heat the water tank). The nice thing with these is it also means at peak times you are exporting solar (if you have it) for a significant gain too. Octopus are offering some new build houses with 0 bills guaranteed for several years (I think it's at least 10) due to fact the energy will be in effect 0 used from grid overall over the course of the year.

0 bill households via this technology already exist, so the highest cost of electric is 0. Saying highest cost is the baseline is missing the key point that in effect if you have batteries on the house, the net cost is always the lowest cost not highest.

All good for now but if in future the masses are changing cars an home storage when it's cheap will it ever be cheap ?
If I invest ball park 30k car 20k heating and solar & Storage plus maintenance will It be worth my while before the market shifts ?( or my last heating bill has been paid to the crem) For me in my opinion no it won't.

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[Sewdhull]

my solar switches off if the there is a mains power cut

But why?