UK power generation and powering our Motorhomes.

[starquake]

I don't know what your 'many other factors' mean but for UK refined petrol, it takes c 4kw of electric to refine 1 gallon. On average 1 gallon of petrol (made with 4kwh of electric) gives 40 miles......an EV would need 10 to 12 kw to drive that.....the 10% is still incorrect. Taking the refinery electric use into acct, perhaps 17/18% rather than 22/23%...certainly not 10%.
The trouble is, National Grid just dumb it down and folk will generally accept the 10%.

I suspect the demand destricution is the other 7% -> ie, the fact actual demand is falling year on year due to effeciency improvements.

Good example of this in the AI space is 3-4 years ago a AI processor capable of about the same amount of AI operations per second as an Apple laptop used 500watt constant, versus around 35W for the AI processor equivalent on an Apple silicon chip.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law -> has applied for many years, and is one of the reasons datacentre power use can decrease as actual work increases.

Should add Nvidia news from last week: https://nvidianews.nvidia.com/news/...ry-desk-and-at-every-ai-developers-fingertips

personal AI chips able to do work of chips that would use > 1.5kw and many many tens of thousands only 3 years ago.

 

[Ray-Vic]

I don't know what your 'many other factors' mean but for UK refined petrol, it takes c 4kw of electric to refine 1 gallon. On average 1 gallon of petrol (made with 4kwh of electric) gives 40 miles......an EV would need 10 to 12 kw to drive that.....the 10% is still incorrect. Taking the refinery electric use into acct, perhaps 17/18% rather than 22/23%...certainly not 10%.
The trouble is, National Grid just dumb it down and folk will generally accept the 10%.

If you don't know the "many other factors" why are you so certain that your figures are correct and the National grid are wrong? What about the not insignificant cost of pumping the fuel at the stations? What about the cost of running the distribution hubs and tanker transportation depots to name just a few?

I'll leave it there, you're clearly adamant that you're right and the National Grid is wrong, so I won't lose sleep over that

 

[enark]

Hydrogen mathematically requires 3 times the power (thats at 100% effeciency). The reality today is around 4 times the power.
Good luck with that if you want it. Multiply the problems for EV's by 4.

(All the same problems exist), and if you building H2 stations near power plants, why would truck stops not be in the same place?

Ref; charging syations for business, actual plans (ie, orders for EV trucks) actually will prioritise your workplace to my understanding. The waiting list piece is actually in the National grids business plan, and if you operate trucks they will prioritise you.

As I've pointed out above with ACTUAL datasets from the grid, there is capacity for A+B today -> 25GW is sitting spare every single night.

And C….

Nothing will work without C..

And that will take at least twenty years, if planning allows, labour available etc etc etc

 

[starquake]

And C….

Nothing will work without C..

And that will take at least twenty years, if planning allows, labour available etc etc etc

Which as I just pointed out already is subject to prioritisation if you actually need it.

If you stick with diesel and don't have any trucks ordered, you won't get the grid connection is the basic rule. But good luck if you are a trasnport company and don't have this in your plans, as I suspect you will not be able to compete with a firm with a fuel cost that is 50% lower.

(I am working with a local firm and yes, they have this in their plans). And they are a mutlinational owned by Blackrock investments. The smart money is already in play on electrification of trucking which is why if you do not already have your trucks on order your delivery date will be 2029+

 

[CAB96]

Californian fires have claimed a battery storage facility.

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/17/us/evacuation-fire-power-plant-monterey-county/index.html

Not a problem.

Local electricity demand has plummeted in the Los Angeles area for some reason.

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[enark]

Which as I just pointed out already is subject to prioritisation if you actually need it.

If you stick with diesel and don't have any trucks ordered, you won't get the grid connection is the basic rule. But good luck if you are a trasnport company and don't have this in your plans, as I suspect you will not be able to compete with a firm with a fuel cost that is 50% lower.

(I am working with a local firm and yes, they have this in their plans). And they are a mutlinational owned by Blackrock investments. The smart money is already in play on electrification of trucking which is why if you do not already have your trucks on order your delivery date will be 2029+

You wont get the connection because we, the UK does not have the resources, skilled electrical linesmen, to install such a network….nor the planning approval, nor the willingness of every town and city road to be dug up.

Dream on it aint going to happen.

 

[dunnah01]

I just wish the govt would hurry up and find a way to charge (£ not kW) EV owners the true cost of electricity so that they subsidise the cost of heating my all electric house

 

[The Wino]

I just wish the govt would hurry up and find a way to charge (£ not kW) EV owners the true cost of electricity so that they subsidise the cost of heating my all electric house

What makes you think that everyone owners aren't paying the cost of what they use? There is the option of a home battery bank and off peak prices and a heat pump system

 

[dunnah01]

What makes you think that everyone owners aren't paying the cost of what they use? There is the option of a home battery bank and off peak prices and a heat pump system

But why aren't the off peak EV prices available for home heating? There's no realistic tariffs for cheaper electric heating when you need it and even Economy 7 type tariffs have eye watering peak rates. If everybody is effectively being encouraged to go electric then there needs to be some proper incentives. Battery banks and heat pumps etc are either not appropriate or too expensive for many people

 

[starquake]

But why aren't the off peak EV prices available for home heating? There's no realistic tariffs for cheaper electric heating when you need it and even Economy 7 type tariffs have eye watering peak rates. If everybody is effectively being encouraged to go electric then there needs to be some proper incentives. Battery banks and heat pumps etc are either not appropriate or too expensive for many people

Both Octopus and I think it is EDF have heat pump tariffs. Most unfortunatly do not (Octopus Flux is the octopus one).

However for anyone with batteries you are better off on EV tariff (and batteries do make you eligable).

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[dunnah01]

Both Octopus and I think it is EDF have heat pump tariffs. Most unfortunatly do not (Octopus Flux is the octopus one).

However for anyone with batteries you are better off on EV tariff (and batteries do make you eligable).

I've been down many rabbit holes to find a tariff that doesn't require me to spend £1000s to upgrade my basic grid tied non SEG solar and electric boiler setup but none exist that I can use. I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to wait for some better tariffs and use less electricity for now

 

[dunnah01]

Both Octopus and I think it is EDF have heat pump tariffs. Most unfortunatly do not (Octopus Flux is the octopus one).

However for anyone with batteries you are better off on EV tariff (and batteries do make you eligable).

I've been down many rabbit holes to find a tariff that doesn't require me to spend £1000s to upgrade my basic grid tied non SEG solar and electric boiler setup but none exist that I can use. I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to wait for some better tariffs and use less electricity for now

 

[dunnah01]

Both Octopus and I think it is EDF have heat pump tariffs. Most unfortunatly do not (Octopus Flux is the octopus one).

However for anyone with batteries you are better off on EV tariff (and batteries do make you eligable).

I've been down many rabbit holes to find a tariff that doesn't require me to spend £1000s to upgrade my basic grid tied non SEG solar and electric boiler setup but none exist that I can use. I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to wait for some better tariffs and use less electricity for now

 

[dunnah01]

Both Octopus and I think it is EDF have heat pump tariffs. Most unfortunatly do not (Octopus Flux is the octopus one).

However for anyone with batteries you are better off on EV tariff (and batteries do make you eligable).

I've been down many rabbit holes to find a tariff that doesn't require me to spend £1000s to upgrade my basic grid tied non SEG solar and electric boiler setup but none exist that I can use. I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to wait for some better tariffs and use less electricity for now

 

[dunnah01]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 11 duplicate posts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - I hope they're not going on my leccy bill

Only 4 now?

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[The Wino]

But why aren't the off peak EV prices available for home heating? There's no realistic tariffs for cheaper electric heating when you need it and even Economy 7 type tariffs have eye watering peak rates. If everybody is effectively being encouraged to go electric then there needs to be some proper incentives. Battery banks and heat pumps etc are either not appropriate or too expensive for many people

The rates for EVs should be available to anyone who wants to switch ( with the same peak rates and standing charges) but I am struggling to see what it's got to do with the government seems to me to be a commercial decision by the companies targeting a group who are likely to have high off peak use throughout the year ( economy seven users presumably use very little night rate in summer ).
Of course if that happened it would be perfectly reasonable to have lower night and off peak rates in the summer and higher off peak in the winter. We are slowly catching up with other countries where the cost of electricity varies widely it must be 20 years ago when our relatives in France were on a tariff that had cheap unit prices if you were prepared to be turned off if demand became very high it made sense as they had a lot of spare nuclear at night/ off peak available.

 

[dunnah01]

The rates for EVs should be available to anyone who wants to switch ( with the same peak rates and standing charges) but I am struggling to see what it's got to do with the government seems to me to be a commercial decision by the companies targeting a group who are likely to have high off peak use throughout the year ( economy seven users presumably use very little night rate in summer ).
Of course if that happened it would be perfectly reasonable to have lower night and off peak rates in the summer and higher off peak in the winter. We are slowly catching up with other countries where the cost of electricity varies widely it must be 20 years ago when our relatives in France were on a tariff that had cheap unit prices if you were prepared to be turned off if demand became very high it made sense as they had a lot of spare nuclear at night/ off peak available.

Only the government have enough clout to stop the electricity Co.s from subsidising EVs by keeping people colder.

 

[starquake]

The rates for EVs should be available to anyone who wants to switch ( with the same peak rates and standing charges) but I am struggling to see what it's got to do with the government seems to me to be a commercial decision by the companies targeting a group who are likely to have high off peak use throughout the year ( economy seven users presumably use very little night rate in summer ).
Of course if that happened it would be perfectly reasonable to have lower night and off peak rates in the summer and higher off peak in the winter. We are slowly catching up with other countries where the cost of electricity varies widely it must be 20 years ago when our relatives in France were on a tariff that had cheap unit prices if you were prepared to be turned off if demand became very high it made sense as they had a lot of spare nuclear at night/ off peak available.

I agree.

And the reason why I suspect EV tariffs are offered by the likes of Octopus is they own (the companys offering this) large amounts of wind farms overnight that would need payments (ie, it would cots Octopus money) if the grid was NOT using the power. Thus it is better to in effect give away cheap overnight power versus pay for them to turn off. Offering to others who don't use high amounts of offpeak power is therefore not (as) good for them.

In real world exmaple around 60% of our use on average is in the 11pm to 5am slot.

And yes, it's exactly same as Nuclear as that also cannot be turned up/down easily, but with nuclear as it's baseload there is not contraint payments like Wind. In effect a cmopany with a large amount of Wind needs to use all the contracted load .... or pay other electricity companies to take it. When you look at Octopus (owning the most Wind of all the energy suppliers) it does make sense for them to offer decent EV tariffs, same with EDF (who own a reasonably amount of wind as well as Nuclear). British Gas less so, as with their generation as per the name being majority gas fired, they can turn down their generation more easily.

 

[starquake]

I've been down many rabbit holes to find a tariff that doesn't require me to spend £1000s to upgrade my basic grid tied non SEG solar and electric boiler setup but none exist that I can use. I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to wait for some better tariffs and use less electricity for now

You don't need a Heat pump for Octopus Flux, only a set of Solar panels (don't even need to be installed by Octopus but do need a MCS certificate or equivalent).

Chances are you are eligable and as a high consumer this would benefit you. They are also the only electricity provider that will do a non MCS solar setup, but you'll need to pay for assesment if you have a self-installed grid tie. They have a team dealing with it (A friend self-installed a grid tie inverter + solar, and is getting paid, but is not on flux, but this would be eligable).

 

[dunnah01]

You don't need a Heat pump for Octopus Flux, only a set of Solar panels (don't even need to be installed by Octopus but do need a MCS certificate or equivalent).

Chances are you are eligable and as a high consumer this would benefit you. They are also the only electricity provider that will do a non MCS solar setup, but you'll need to pay for assesment if you have a self-installed grid tie. They have a team dealing with it (A friend self-installed a grid tie inverter + solar, and is getting paid, but is not on flux, but this would be eligable).

My solar is only grid tied to get the phase signal and allow import, any excess heats water for towel rails until I can afford a battery or similar storage system but very little gets sent back to the grid so it's not worth my while getting the system assessed and certified at the moment. The day rate, peak rate and standing charges of the Octopus Flux tariff are not as competitive as my current British Gas tariff and I have no means of storing energy at the Flux rate.

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[Bolti]

You don't need a Heat pump for Octopus Flux, only a set of Solar panels (don't even need to be installed by Octopus but do need a MCS certificate or equivalent).

Chances are you are eligable and as a high consumer this would benefit you. They are also the only electricity provider that will do a non MCS solar setup, but you'll need to pay for assesment if you have a self-installed grid tie. They have a team dealing with it (A friend self-installed a grid tie inverter + solar, and is getting paid, but is not on flux, but this would be eligable).

The tariff you highlighted Flux has just a 3 hour window for cheaper electric at 15.12p/unit compare the with a Ev tariff Go which gives 6 hours of cheap electric at 8.5p/unit or better still if you allow octopus the turn the charging on it is just 7p.
The tariffs are biased to much toward Ev usage and not heating our home.

 

[starquake]

The tariff you highlighted Flux has just a 3 hour window for cheaper electric at 15.12p/unit compare the with a Ev tariff Go which gives 6 hours of cheap electric at 8.5p/unit or better still if you allow octopus the turn the charging on it is just 7p.
The tariffs are biased to much toward Ev usage and not heating our home.

It also has a significantly lower rate entire day, with a peak 4-7pm thats above the normal one and a higher export rate for solar, making it beneficial to those with heat pumps or electric heat + solar.

I was pointing it out purely as with an electric boiler, it's likely SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than even the EV tariff given a house needs all day heat not just overnight.

It's literally designed for this use alongside solar.

If you have a heat pump or electric heat you would want to be on Flux and not the EV tariff if you did not have batteries + inverter.

In effect cheap prices are not always cheap when you look at the 24/7 use cycle of things (without a battery). You are totally correct if you had batteries the EV tariff is better, and yes you can have the EV tariff without an EV if you have a home battery.

 

[Bolti]

It also has a significantly lower rate entire day, with a peak 4-7pm thats above the normal one and a higher export rate for solar, making it beneficial to those with heat pumps or electric heat + solar.

I was pointing it out purely as with an electric boiler, it's likely SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than even the EV tariff given a house needs all day heat not just overnight.

It's literally designed for this use alongside solar.

If you have a heat pump or electric heat you would want to be on Flux and not the EV tariff if you did not have batteries + inverter.

In effect cheap prices are not always cheap when you look at the 24/7 use cycle of things (without a battery). You are totally correct if you had batteries the EV tariff is better, and yes you can have the EV tariff without an EV if you have a home battery.

Flux rates

• Day rate:25.36 p/kWh
• Peak rate (16:00 - 19:00):35.50 p/kWh
• Flux rate (02:00 - 05:00):15.21 p/kWh
• Standing charge:49.98 p/day

Go rates

• Day unit rate:26.84 p/kWh
• Night unit rate:8.50 p/kWh
• Standing charge:49.98 p/day

Description​

The smart EV tariff with super cheap electricity between 00:30 - 05:30 every night

The day rate on Go is only fractionally more expensive but is a hell of a lot cheaper for a lot longer than Flux

 

[starquake]

The day rate on Go is only fractionally more expensive but is a hell of a lot cheaper for a lot longer than Flux

It really depends on your region. Go rate in my region is 27.1p a unit at moment.
And remember it's not all that, if you are on Go your max export rate is 15p, on Flux it's 25p.

As said, it's not all about the import rates, given the requestor has solar, it's likely still beneficial, especially compared with a price cap tariff, which has a higher 24/7 rate.

Personally I'm on Agile as I think many here know -> which offers good rates 24/7 and is open to all, not just EV owners, and yes has negative rates. Bear in mind this likely would not suit an electrically heated house, as the price on a very cold day is likely £1 a unit most of day. I would not reccomend this for someone with an electric heatsource of any sort, givne the likely penalty when you need the heatpump on all day. A friend of mine had a airsource heatpump installed circa 2021 and has been very happy with Flux (when combined with his Solar on his newbuild).

Remember a ASHP really wants 500w-1kw constant, not a offpeak 11:30-5:30am rate. However the cheap rate is great for heating up the water tank.

 

[Vikdikdok]

Octopus do a couple of Business rate tariffs, slightly more per unit but NO daily standing charge . . .

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[The Wino]

The tariff you highlighted Flux has just a 3 hour window for cheaper electric at 15.12p/unit compare the with a Ev tariff Go which gives 6 hours of cheap electric at 8.5p/unit or better still if you allow octopus the turn the charging on it is just 7p.
The tariffs are biased to much toward Ev usage and not heating our home.

But as I said as an energy supplier would you rather have people who want off peak year round or people who just want it in winter when it's probably less available?
It's a bit like that debate around whether holidays should vary as much in term time and in school holidays it's basically supply and demand and running a business.

 

[Cobra]

We are quite heavy users of electricity, often as much as 30kwh per day (and no EV or heatpump)

I’m lucky in that I NEVER pay octopus’ day rate.
Dishwasher & washing machine mostly overnight and large(ish) batteries which can power the house all day
I’m on octopus’ economy 7 so am charged 12p kwh at night
Although, during the winter, I am struggling to charge the batteries during the cheap time window as they are almost fully depleted during the day.
To mitigate this I have just ordered an additional charger to work with my Multiplus and reduce the time spent charging.
During the summer, my solar does a lot of the charging so I won’t need to use the additional charger.

I never export, excess solar is used to charge the batteries