Yup....and these, now frequent, threads end up going round and round in circles..I suspect most of us would agree that the UK needs a broad mix of power generation..but the UK is many, many years behind and when plans are unveiled...they take years to get to and thru planning....madness
My reasoning is this. Typical COP (efficiency) is about 3 at reasonable positive outdoor temp and moderate circulation water temp around 50C. However efficiency drops non-linearly at cold temperatures. Although sub zero freezing temperatures aren’t the norm, we do get them and we can get down to -10 where COP could possibly reach ~1.5. But at this efficiency, heating power output from the heat pump drops a long way and a home could struggle for heat. For this reason, heat pump manufacturers (such as Grant Aerona) have a built in heating element which switches on automatically when the air temperature reaches +2.5Celsius and back off again at + 5Celsius. This electric heater must therefore drag down overall system COP efficiency below 1.5 at the lowest UK sub zero temperatures. We could debate whether this is 1.0, 1.2 or 0.9 but the principle is, taking a typical uk home, retrofitting a high temp heat pump and sizing for the coldest days, system efficiency begins to approach parity.
Isn't this the crux of many peoples problems....the system is fine IF it is fitted to a suitable house....modern build, loads of insulation, underfloor heating at lower temps = perfect......100 yr old house with lacklustre insulation, trying to heat larger surface area wall mounted radiators to a higher temperature = poor to terrible.
From -15C down where you going to bring that heat in? I have two air heat pumps, one a little better than the other, but, from -12C the electricity consumption slides towards 1:1.
I have to agree The Wino. We must get to point where key strategies transcend party policies, mud slinging between parties and avoid the NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. It is my view and everyone’s view is valid, that in order for a party to come into power, it must agree to deliver the national strategy programmes, agree not to change the deliverables, and agree to update the electorate regularly on progress toward these national strategy objectives.
Certainly that kind of super efficient house you describe will be more temperate at a lower running cost than the latter one you describe.
Why are they so popular in Nordic countries then?
Cheap electricity, Norway has 5 mil so not so much requirement as UK with over 60 mil.
I’m pleased I installed a multifuel stove in our house. All it needs to work is coal or wood - no electricity required.
Also, as an island, we have 1000's miles of coast and could use tidal power. A power source that is very regular and predictable. If there were no tides to generate power, everything else would be pointlessIs the best we can hope for, the turning of agriculture acreage into fields of battery and energy conversion plant? It does seem an improvement over the likes of coal power at least. I just wonder about the sustainability of lithium batteries, the supply chain, recycling, and the grip on global battery production that the Chinese state has, and whether we may one day regret funding their war machine.
Through the lense of reduced UK CO2 emissions alone, it is hard to justify against battery storage right now.
One energy storage technology, well proven that in suprised we hear less about, especially given our islands great natural resource, is hydroelectric (and rain). Suitable sites must exist, after all we do have mountains and valleys in the UK. And I do like a spot of sailing
It's a bit misleading to say that 'system efficiency begins to approach parity' without mentioning that is only does so on the very coldest days, when the outside temperature is below the 'System Design Temperature'. That's the lowest temperature at which the heating system can maintain a comfortable temperature when working at full capacity. Typically that might be -1 to -5 degrees C. For Manchester it would be -2°C.
I think the sights are currently on vanadium (the production of which is mostly in russian and chinese hands...) rather than lithium if we're talking energy industry scale battery farms. There are several interesting pilot projects using vanadium flow batteries going on around the globe. The flow batteries are interesting because they have high cycle life to begin with and promise near easy near 100% recyclability to boot, are easily scaleable, safe and very efficient. Lithium's main selling point, excellent energy density, is secondary outside of the transportation sector. That's why many companies are looking into refurbishing EV batteries for industrial use - it doesn't really matter if the capacity is reduced because weight and volume are less critical so a cell might have a life in an EV for 15 years and then another 15 years second life in a battery farm.Is the best we can hope for, the turning of agriculture acreage into fields of battery and energy conversion plant? It does seem an improvement over the likes of coal power at least. I just wonder about the sustainability of lithium batteries, the supply chain, recycling, and the grip on global battery production that the Chinese state has, and whether we may one day regret funding their war machine.
Through the lense of reduced UK CO2 emissions alone, it is hard to justify against battery storage right now.
One energy storage technology, well proven that in suprised we hear less about, especially given our islands great natural resource, is hydroelectric (and rain
That is not a very good cold climate heat pump you're describing. The Mitsubishi unit I helped my father install to his cabin a while back is good for 110% of the rated 4kW output at -15c and above 85% rated output at -25c. COP is >2 down to -35c or something. Nominal power is 1kW.
When I clarified my reasoning to give a full explanation of the conditions that bring about efficiency that approaches parity, and to this full explanation, you opening response calls it ‘a bit misleading’.
It’s such an interesting and dynamic area, battery technology. Chemistry and architecture. One thing for sure, the motive and static power storage markets are so large that it will drive competition and innovation.
Sorry, that was a poor choice of words. Your explanation is perfectly correct. I was just a bit concerned that someone reading it, not being conversant with heat pumps, would come away with the impression that if a system is designed for very cold weather it would necessarily have a bad COP at normal temperatures. I appreciate that was not what you were implying.
Are you saying that you have oil fired heating that dosen't use electricity?
....and in the distance a faint anguished cry from tory MPS's of "Not In My Back Yard"
I think national grid have been working on that for some time certainly they were thinking about future use of electricity to replace gas many years ago I remember a friend who works for them saying so at a time when the rest of us hadn't really thought about it. Whether they carried that through to any action I don't know.
As all domestic users pay the standing charge wouldn't it's removal need a corresponding increase in unit costs unless there's some huge profits being made that could be reduced? Where is the magic money tree?
in theory, low usage users would benefit, and high usage users would pay more
Exactly. The question has to be what is the cost of running the grid irrespective of the amount of energy used pretty clearly if you're going to use any gas at all you need some sort of network. The standing charge should if it's going to be fair reflect that cost for gas and electricity. It would seem fair that those who use more than a certain amount of either have a unit rate that reflects the extra infrastructure.
The photo shows mainly cooling towers... hence, steam... not smoke!more of this:
Sustainability and Impact is part of our DNA | Gore Street Energy Storage Fund plc
www.gsenergystoragefund.com
less of this:
View attachment 1000115
We have the same setup... we also have battery backup!
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