Towing A frame in France

[John n Jinny]

Opinions on A frame usage in France please .I have been tol it is illegal ,but also a grey area .

 

[Gover]

I have used an A frame for over 6 weeks each year for the last 20 years in France without being stopped. However stopped 3 times in Germany on the A3 motorway, without being fined, have not been caught elsewhere.
No problems in Belgium, Luxemburg, Holland, Austria or Italy.

 

[TonyEmm]

I don’t think it’s illegal but if you go on LNB tow bars website you can download information that explains the whole thing.

See my post #89

 

[Van Weasel]

So it’s not the A frame that’s the issue it’s the fact you are towing another ICE vehicle directly that the frogs don’t like. Seems a bit of a no brainer that a Fiat 500 (as long as it’s properly attached) is going to be more stable on the road surface with complex vehicle suspension geometry and a wheel at each corner than one plonked on top of a trailer with 2 sets of dodgy wheels in the centre, just Newtons laws isn’t it?
As for reversing if you can’t reverse it for whatever reason just unhook the thing and drive it?
But then you have factor in the French who probably wouldn’t appreciate you mentioning the virtues of Sir Isaac Newton! Zut Alors! You English type!
Pity towball mounted racks don’t exist for Smartcars

 

[Van Weasel]

Think I’m on to something here!

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[Conniedriving]

Why do you persist in plugging this useless group? Of course the members will be happy a-framing abroad, most deny any knowledge of any legislation whatsoever! What’s more, they refuse to discuss towing with a trailer which is the only guaranteed legal way to do it.

it’s hardly a balanced point of view!

It’s only useless to you as they will not let you join

 

[TonyEmm]

It’s only useless to you as they will not let you join

I have no interest in joining a group administered by Mr Hunt or his daughter, it’s impossible to have a rational conversation with either.
In any event, it makes more sense to be in a group of 4000 members (https://www.facebook.com/groups/921897484990172) with diverse views but grown up conversations as opposed to another with less than 100 with bigoted opinions.

 

[TonyEmm]

I have no interest in joining a group administered by Mr Hunt or his daughter, it’s impossible to have a rational conversation with either.
In any event, it makes more sense to be in a group of 4000 members (https://www.facebook.com/groups/921897484990172) with diverse views but grown up conversations as opposed to another with less than 100 with bigoted opinions.

 

[dunnah01]

Is there any organisation that certifies the modifications to the car for fitting an A-frame or can I just use duct tape around the front bumper?

 

[TonyEmm]

I have no interest in joining a group administered by Mr Hunt or his daughter, it’s impossible to have a rational conversation with either.
In any event, it makes more sense to be in a group of 4000 members (https://www.facebook.com/groups/921897484990172) with diverse views but grown up conversations as opposed to another with less than 100 with bigoted opinions.

For info: both were blocked by the admin of the other group for their continual abuse and insults hurled at anyone that held a different pov to them…

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[TonyEmm]

Is there any organisation that certifies the modifications to the car for fitting an A-frame or can I just use duct tape around the front bumper?

You are free to use duct tape! New Zealand have a certification process for a-frames but the DfT don’t see the need…

 

[Conniedriving]

I have also been told the same story .

How can a story

For info: both were blocked by the admin of the other group for their continual abuse and insults hurled at anyone that held a different pov to them…

Anyone not agreeing with your opinion gets blocked from the group

 

[TonyEmm]

How can a story

Anyone not agreeing with your opinion gets blocked from the group

It’s not my decision,I don’t admin the group! I guess you were kicked out?

 

[TonyEmm]

What a silly regulation. Half the motorhomes in North America use toads and there is no evidence that it presents any more of a safety issue than towing a trailer. Bureaucrats at work methinks.

The front doesn’t usually fall off of a trailer!

 

[TonyEmm]

So it’s not the A frame that’s the issue it’s the fact you are towing another ICE vehicle directly that the frogs don’t like. Seems a bit of a no brainer that a Fiat 500 (as long as it’s properly attached) is going to be more stable on the road surface with complex vehicle suspension geometry and a wheel at each corner than one plonked on top of a trailer with 2 sets of dodgy wheels in the centre, just Newtons laws isn’t it?
As for reversing if you can’t reverse it for whatever reason just unhook the thing and drive it?
But then you have factor in the French who probably wouldn’t appreciate you mentioning the virtues of Sir Isaac Newton! Zut Alors! You English type!
Pity towball mounted racks don’t exist for Smartcars

The French (and Spain) have national laws that outlaw towing one motorised vehicle with another so in that sense, The a-frame isn’t the issue.
However, the great majority of a-frames (and this includes The Système Bleu 4 made in France) are inertia braked.
inertia braking is outlawed under UNECE reg13 on anything other than centre axle trailers so there is at least 2 ways the majority of users could be nicked!

With regard to a towball mounting for a Smart car, whilst it wasn’t exactly towball mounted, I did see an American RV at Norwich show that had a chassis mounted hydraulic lift for a Smart! It just drove on sideways and was lifted off the ground!

Might be a struggle behind the average U.K./European MoHo though!

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[Coolcats]

So it’s not the A frame that’s the issue it’s the fact you are towing another ICE vehicle directly that the frogs don’t like. Seems a bit of a no brainer that a Fiat 500 (as long as it’s properly attached) is going to be more stable on the road surface with complex vehicle suspension geometry and a wheel at each corner than one plonked on top of a trailer with 2 sets of dodgy wheels in the centre, just Newtons laws isn’t it?
As for reversing if you can’t reverse it for whatever reason just unhook the thing and drive it?
But then you have factor in the French who probably wouldn’t appreciate you mentioning the virtues of Sir Isaac Newton! Zut Alors! You English type!
Pity towball mounted racks don’t exist for Smartcars

Most if not all vehicles adopt the Ackerman principle of steering geometry, nothing to do with Newton and he happened to be German.

 

[jess12]

Just wondering is there relevant government bodies for each country that could advise where legal or not as there seems to be a lot of differing opinions proffered on here

 

[Minxy]

Just wondering is there relevant government bodies for each country that could advise where legal or not as there seems to be a lot of differing opinions proffered on here

I'm sure there are but finding out who they are and how to contact them will be time consuming. There are many where towing one motorised vehicle with another is illegal (the wheels of the toad are on the ground), such as Spain, France, also possibly Germany (I can't remember). These are facts not opinion.

 

[iain26]

Just followed a Motorhome towing a car on a French N road. I couldn’t make out the Nationality but it had a small trailer board strapped to the back with little lights which were definitely inboard of the width of the car. It seemed to be towed by a A Frame but not sure about any braking, if any!

Also seen today was a FRENCH registered motorhome towing a French registered car on an A frame.

 

[Despicable]

Just wondering is there relevant government bodies for each country that could advise where legal or not as there seems to be a lot of differing opinions proffered on here

What confuses the situation is that most, if not all, European countries run on EVERYTHING is illegal, unless made legal. Where, the UK runs on the opposite: EVERYTHING is legal, unless made illegal. So, in UK you can legally use an A-frame, as it has not been tested in the courts. However, I don't think it's been tested in the courts in Johnny Foreignerland, but it certainly goes against some of their traffic regulations; I think the Germans have made it very unwise to use an A-frame on their patch.

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[Boy]

So confusing for sure
I would take a chance if I had another driver with me

 

[Van Weasel]

Most if not all vehicles adopt the Ackerman principle of steering geometry, nothing to do with Newton and he happened to be German.

Very interesting and true too! Ultimately gravity wins and at the end of the day it’s dark!

 

[TonyEmm]

Most if not all vehicles adopt the Ackerman principle of steering geometry, nothing to do with Newton and he happened to be German.

I used to build car dollies that were Ackerman steered. The difference between one of those and an a-frame is that the angle of the drawbar dictates the angles of the wheels.
the same can’t be said of an a-frame where the drawbar is fixed (transversely anyway) and has no input to the front wheels.

 

[Spriddler]

the drawbar dictates the angles of the wheels.
the same can’t be said of an a-frame where the drawbar is fixed (transversely anyway) and has no input to the front wheels.

So how does a car on an 'A' Frame steer, or does the car's steering lock fix the front wheels in the straight ahead position so that the front wheels are dragged around corners?

 

[TonyEmm]

I'm sure there are but finding out who they are and how to contact them will be time consuming. There are many where towing one motorised vehicle with another is illegal (the wheels of the toad are on the ground), such as Spain, France, also possibly Germany (I can't remember). These are facts not opinion.

In France, it’s https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/texte_lc/LEGITEXT000006074228/2021-04-01
In Spain, the ministry of the interior issued a reminder to the Guardia Civil, : https://www.autocaravanas.es/wp-con...GT_Instruccion_08-V-74_Autocaravanas_2076.pdf
and it was an incident in Germany that prompted the question to the European Parliament https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-7-2012-000299_EN.html?redirect
You’re right on all 3 counts!

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[Coolcats]

I used to build car dollies that were Ackerman steered. The difference between one of those and an a-frame is that the angle of the drawbar dictates the angles of the wheels.
the same can’t be said of an a-frame where the drawbar is fixed (transversely anyway) and has no input to the front wheels.

Indeed I was just replying to the geometry part of the post which I do believe was reference to the vehicle. Totally agree with what you are saying

 

[TonyEmm]

So how does a car on an 'A' Frame steer, or does the car's steering lock fix the front wheels in the straight ahead position so that the front wheels are dragged around corners?

The towed car itself isn’t actually steered. It’s down to the physics of the individual car’s steering geometry. A combination of complex angles, caster angle, toe in/out, king pin inclination, camber angle etc causes the car to follow the vehicle that’s pulling it, provided it’s going forward!
Everything changes in reverse, you have no control whatsoever. More than likely, after a few yards reversing, the front wheels of the toad will go onto opposite lock and you’ll have to force it around corners, with all the associated risks of damage..

Certain vehicles, notably the early Smart cars, could be subject to the ‘death wobble’ when going forwards as without dampers on the steering arms, they didn’t always react the same as others. There have been first hand reports of it on here but one recent one I recall suggested the car was dancing all over the place with the front wheels alternately leaving the ground!

It would be a recipe for disaster to leave the steering lock on…

 

[Mike123]

What confuses the situation is that most, if not all, European countries run on EVERYTHING is illegal, unless made legal. Where, the UK runs on the opposite: EVERYTHING is legal, unless made illegal. So, in UK you can legally use an A-frame, as it has not been tested in the courts. However, I don't think it's been tested in the courts in Johnny Foreignerland, but it certainly goes against some of their traffic regulations; I think the Germans have made it very unwise to use an A-frame on their patch.

Only recovery services can tow vehicles in Spain and Germany - hence not legal to tow.

In a month driving in Spain I have not seen one Toad - but plenty of trailers.

 

[Conniedriving]

So confusing for sure
I would take a chance if I had another driver with me

I don’t have another driver with me if stopped I would refuse the fine and have my day in court that will end these debates once and for all
To me it’s only seems the same person who seems to have a fixation about how illegal it is . But no one has it seems has ever been to court. Then you get the police can’t be bothered to nick you or they make and sell Aframes in France but you can not use them if that was the case they wouldn’t be in business for long yet they sell hundreds of them.

 

[Boy]

Not sure it’s as black and white as that
But who knows

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[TonyEmm]

I don’t have another driver with me if stopped I would refuse the fine and have my day in court that will end these debates once and for all
To me it’s only seems the same person who seems to have a fixation about how illegal it is . But no one has it seems has ever been to court. Then you get the police can’t be bothered to nick you or they make and sell Aframes in France but you can not use them if that was the case they wouldn’t be in business for long yet they sell hundreds of them.

I’d like to be a fly on the wall in the foreign court!