Thinking of setting of on trip to Europe this week - any suggestions bearing in mind all this Covid stuff

[jongood]

The definitive test for who got it most right ( or wrong for the Wino) will come in the next few months.

IMHO Sweden were most right in the early days but now its the Germans, although there weakness could be that their numbers without any immunity at all could be quite high if the dam breaks.

I think history will show that the aggressive lockdowns achieved very little, particularly here, where the only success was to protect the NHS in a few major cities. There are surely less damaging ways of doing this.

 

[Sue]

I have no idea why you directed that post at me.

Not as a criticism or disagreement.
Just to point out the witches dunking stool dilemma in reply to your observation that we don’t know what the figures would be with a different intervention

 

[Sue]

That's your choice and fine as long as you don't make that decision for other people by your actions.

That argument does not extend to those of us who wish to live a normal life, but are forced to adhere to rules and diktats made by groups using spurious and frightening manipulation of statistics to force us to behave in a certain way.
If you choose to follow all you are told, fine.
Also
As I’ve said so may times, it’s now all about cases, deaths are downplayed as is the asymptomatic nature of this condition.
To say actually, it’s good news!
Cases are up, but deaths are down, 90 plus percent of those affected have mild or no symptoms, ....just does not fit the narrative of this controlling government.

 

[138go]

It's sufficient for us to know that cases are up. We are educated enough to know why deaths are down. Quite honestly neither of us wants to catch anything, so we prefer to avoid the risks as best we can.

Our government is not controlling. On the contrary, the ethos of this government is more of a "hands off" approach.

We aren't afraid Barclaybasher, we just prefer to be pragmatic.

 

[Sue]

It's sufficient for us to know that cases are up. We are educated enough to know why deaths are down. Quite honestly neither of us wants to catch anything, so we prefer to avoid the risks as best we can.

Our government is not controlling. On the contrary, the ethos of this government is more of a "hands off" approach.

We aren't afraid Barclaybasher, we just prefer to be pragmatic.

Could I just ask where you get the ethos of this government is a hands off approach, when Hancock won’t even allow an MP to ask a legitimate question, but , rather accuses him of being divisive ( smacks of totalitarianism) .
When they bring out rules, but will not allow MPs to comment or debate.
When they use fear as a tactic, and whe they refuse to listen to anyone who has a different perspective on the situation to them
I see a controlling , manipulative government, enjoying their power.

Hancock is my MP, and his reply to the 2 letters I have sent asking for clarification of his actions, are banal at best, condescending at worst.

Another question....
I’m confused why is it sufficient to know that cases are up, you are happy with limited information?
You say you know ....so in your opinion, why are deaths down,?

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[The Wino]

Could I just ask where you get the ethos of this government is a hands off approach, when Hancock won’t even allow an MP to ask a legitimate question, but , rather accuses him of being divisive ( smacks of totalitarianism) .
When they bring out rules, but will not allow MPs to comment or debate.
When they use fear as a tactic, and whe they refuse to listen to anyone who has a different perspective on the situation to them
I see a controlling , manipulative government, enjoying their power.

Hancock is my MP, and his reply to the 2 letters I have sent asking for clarification of his actions, are banal at best, condescending at worst.

Another question....
I’m confused why is it sufficient to know that cases are up, you are happy with limited information?
You say you know ....so in your opinion, why are deaths down,?

I see a government that has relied far too much on the common sense of the population!
When you say deaths are down from when?. From the first wave peak yes but the cases then are known to have been way higher than picked up remember there were only a few tests each day. From the low after the first wave cases and hospitalisation and deaths are all up.

 

[Sue]

I see a government that has relied far too much on the common sense of the population!
When you say deaths are down from when?. From the first wave peak yes but the cases then are known to have been way higher than picked up remember there were only a few tests each day. From the low after the first wave cases and hospitalisation and deaths are all up.

Common sense of the population?
Fear
Threats
Fines

 

[yorkieman]

If you don't believe there's any risk why in your op did you ask where was safe? Surely you can go anywhere just choose the place with least restrictions.
Looked at your video where do you want to start with the nonsense in it. How about him saying lets look at Spain and France as they are ahead of us in the pandemic. Yes let's they seem to have flattened off the increase with strict measures including a lot more enforcement than here if we want a similar path we need to do the same or did he forget they were doing anything. He says we ought to trace real positives not false ones how could you tell which were which? (Assuming his figures are right). Why are cases rising faster than tests if all we are picking up is the consequence of increased testing. Was the reason we didn't have the big increases in Cornwall in the summer because at the end of the first lockdown there were so few people carrying the virus that there was very few people to catch it from? After all there was an equally slow increase here in February at first even though it was winter and everyone was mixing totally freely indoors if you are at a low number you can double it a few times and hardly notice in population terms but not once you get into the hundreds.
Lots of others

I suppose it is nonsense for people who don't understand numbers, and struggle with statistics and graphs. As someone with a numerical background I thought it was a pretty good explanation for lay people, and I think if it helps people realise that the doom and gloom merchants are not telling the whole story accurately.

"He says we ought to trace real positives not false ones how could you tell which were which?"

It is all down to how PCR tests are conducted and the statistical validity of the results. If you look at basic stuff like confidence levels and standard deviations, then you have the answer. It isn't rocket science and pretty much Statistics 101.

As for the answers to your other questions, it is all pretty much the same kind of thing. You need to do a deep dive into the numbers that are publicly available and the answers are all there. Unfortunately, the Govt and media, who seem to be quite poor at numbers in general (or twist them to suit their own agendas), are constantly misinterpreting the figures and scaring everyone to death (literally in some cases) and ruining lives.

"If you don't believe there's any risk why in your op did you ask where was safe?"

I am not a virus denier at all. It is sensible to take appropriate precautions, just like when there is a flu bug, or any other kind of infection going around.

Maybe that is where we differ, as I don't agree that trashing the world economy, forcing tens of thousands of businesses into bankruptcy, ruining people's physical and mental health, and creating a culture of anxiety and fear are the right precautions. Not to mention the harm done to young impressionable minds and the complete trashing of the hopes and aspirations of young school and university leavers.

I think that the MSM and Govt need to start telling people the truth and not terrifying people, and people need to stop believing everything they hear on the news and start asking questions and doing a bit of their own research. And, if they have the skills, download the available data files from reputable sources and do their own research into the numbers.

How so-called experts like Vallance and Whitty can go on record as saying that left unchecked 'cases' could double weekly was irresponsible and scaremongering of the highest level.

How quickly is the outbreak growing? - Full Fact

Government scientists warned that new cases could double every week, which some people say is not realistic.

fullfact.org

The numbers were clearly not indicating that was the case and any such prediction was quite obviously incredibly unlikely. They were simply throwing in a sound-bite that they knew the media would run with. And guess what? The media (who seems to be no longer capable of questioning anything) picked up and ran with it, and many people just swallowed it hook line and sinket and started to repeat it online without ever questioning it - and in so doing continued the rampant fear mongering. Wow!

 

[138go]

I reckon Donald Trump is on this thread.

 

[Sue]

I reckon Donald Trump is on this thread.

Really?
That’s the best you can do
When all else fails start the insults
An argument simply disintegrates and is no longer worth the effort at this point

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[The Wino]

I suppose it is nonsense for people who don't understand numbers, and struggle with statistics and graphs. As someone with a numerical background I thought it was a pretty good explanation for lay people, and I think if it helps people realise that the doom and gloom merchants are not telling the whole story accurately.

"He says we ought to trace real positives not false ones how could you tell which were which?"

It is all down to how PCR tests are conducted and the statistical validity of the results. If you look at basic stuff like confidence levels and standard deviations, then you have the answer. It isn't rocket science and pretty much Statistics 101.

As for the answers to your other questions, it is all pretty much the same kind of thing. You need to do a deep dive into the numbers that are publicly available and the answers are all there. Unfortunately, the Govt and media, who seem to be quite poor at numbers in general (or twist them to suit their own agendas), are constantly misinterpreting the figures and scaring everyone to death (literally in some cases) and ruining lives.

"If you don't believe there's any risk why in your op did you ask where was safe?"

I am not a virus denier at all. It is sensible to take appropriate precautions, just like when there is a flu bug, or any other kind of infection going around.

Maybe that is where we differ, as I don't agree that trashing the world economy, forcing tens of thousands of businesses into bankruptcy, ruining people's physical and mental health, and creating a culture of anxiety and fear are the right precautions. Not to mention the harm done to young impressionable minds and the complete trashing of the hopes and aspirations of young school and university leavers.

I think that the MSM and Govt need to start telling people the truth and not terrifying people, and people need to stop believing everything they hear on the news and start asking questions and doing a bit of their own research. And, if they have the skills, download the available data files from reputable sources and do their own research into the numbers.

How so-called experts like Vallance and Whitty can go on record as saying that left unchecked 'cases' could double weekly was irresponsible and scaremongering of the highest level.

How quickly is the outbreak growing? - Full Fact

Government scientists warned that new cases could double every week, which some people say is not realistic.

fullfact.org

The numbers were clearly not indicating that was the case and any such prediction was quite obviously incredibly unlikely. They were simply throwing in a sound-bite that they knew the media would run with. And guess what? The media (who seems to be no longer capable of questioning anything) picked up and ran with it, and many people just swallowed it hook line and sinket and started to repeat it online without ever questioning it - and in so doing continued the rampant fear mongering. Wow!

So how often were the numbers doubling? I've got a numbers and bit of a scientific background and my son has an MSC in molecular biology he doesn't think it's nonsense or overstated! The government have panels of scientific opinion that have a consensus how can they all be biased?. As for another view that it's to slow economic growth what sort of strange idea is that we have been struggling to find economic growth for quite a few years!!!!

 

[billym]

Things aren't getting better in Europe.

Record Polish death toll, Spain passes 800,000 cases: COVID-19 daily bulletin

The latest updates on the pandemics including the UK buying 1 million antibody tests and the remdesivir treatment drug 'running out.'

newseu.cgtn.com

Here's a few snips from the above link

Spain has become the first Western European nation to pass 800,000 total cases after registering 23,480 new infections over the weekend, health ministry data showed on Monday. Daily deaths are at their highest level since early May but well below the late-March record.

The number of COVID-19 patients in French intensive care units has passed the 1,400 threshold for the first time since 28 May, health authorities reported.

UZ Brussels University Hospital said its coronavirus ward is nearing full capacity and some patients are now being transferred to hospitals outside the capital region.

etc etc.

It's probably just scare mongering, apparently.

 

[The Wino]

Things aren't getting better in Europe.

Record Polish death toll, Spain passes 800,000 cases: COVID-19 daily bulletin

The latest updates on the pandemics including the UK buying 1 million antibody tests and the remdesivir treatment drug 'running out.'

newseu.cgtn.com

Here's a few snips from the above link

Spain has become the first Western European nation to pass 800,000 total cases after registering 23,480 new infections over the weekend, health ministry data showed on Monday. Daily deaths are at their highest level since early May but well below the late-March record.

The number of COVID-19 patients in French intensive care units has passed the 1,400 threshold for the first time since 28 May, health authorities reported.

UZ Brussels University Hospital said its coronavirus ward is nearing full capacity and some patients are now being transferred to hospitals outside the capital region.

etc etc.

It's probably just scare mongering, apparently.

I would give you a like for posting but the denyers would say it's a doom and gloom like of bad news. As for the MPs I think there ought to be a commons vote not on party lines. I think there's a few Tory MPs who make it look like they have some sort of consensus on a big division on actions taken I think a free vote would give us a better overall view. The danger is people who think it's a con feel vindicated by the rebels.

 

[138go]

Really?
That’s the best you can do
When all else fails start the insults
An argument simply disintegrates and is no longer worth the effort at this point

I couldn't agree more. I'm out as far as trying to reason sensibly, about this issue. It wasn't an insult though, just an attempt at humour. Having said that, Trump is saying "“Don’t be afraid of it, don’t let it dominate you“ which sounds familiar on this thread.

 

[billym]

I would give you a like for posting but the denyers would say it's a doom and gloom like of bad news. As for the MPs I think there ought to be a commons vote not on party lines. I think there's a few Tory MPs who make it look like they have some sort of consensus on a big division on actions taken I think a free vote would give us a better overall view. The danger is people who think it's a con feel vindicated by the rebels.

An ex- friend of mine has made a good living writing conspiracy theory type books contributing on the radio and blogging.

I fell out with him when he published holocaust denial rubbish.

Anyway he is a vocal virus denier, anti vaccinations anti establishment anti just about anything.

Since March he has been ' shielding' due to an ongoing health condition. ( Just in case)

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[jongood]

It's sufficient for us to know that cases are up. We are educated enough to know why deaths are down. Quite honestly neither of us wants to catch anything, so we prefer to avoid the risks as best we can.

Our government is not controlling. On the contrary, the ethos of this government is more of a "hands off" approach.

We aren't afraid Barclaybasher, we just prefer to be pragmatic.

Whats educated got to do with it? its common sense that will get people through this.

 

[Sue]

An ex- friend of mine has made a good living writing conspiracy theory type books contributing on the radio and blogging.

I fell out with him when he published holocaust denial rubbish.

Anyway he is a vocal virus denier, anti vaccinations anti establishment anti just about anything.

Since March he has been ' shielding' due to an ongoing health condition. ( Just in case)

So
What’s your point ?
You have a friend who has some views?

 

[billym]

So
What’s your point ?
You have a friend who has some views?

He is two faced. Publishing virus denial diabtribes whilst shielding himself away from the very thing he doesn't believe in.

 

[yorkieman]

So how often were the numbers doubling? I've got a numbers and bit of a scientific background and my son has an MSC in molecular biology he doesn't think it's nonsense or overstated! The government have panels of scientific opinion that have a consensus how can they all be biased?. As for another view that it's to slow economic growth what sort of strange idea is that we have been struggling to find economic growth for quite a few years!!!!

That's awesome that you have that input. Discussion is always good, particularly if you have that kind of expertise to tap into. Helps take things to a whole new level.

Maybe they will be right and we will hit 50,000 cases next week. It could happen. And if it starts to look unlikely maybe they can find another Excel spreadsheet that can add in another 20,000 right at the last moment.

It boggles the mind that PROFESSIONAL, highly paid researchers could have made that mistake. That level of incompetence does make me question the validity of EVERYTHING we are being told. I seriously doubt Jeff Bezos is running Amazon using spreadsheets, and if something like Parkrun (a not for profit organisation) can collate results from 350,000 runners each Saturday morning and get it spot on with TWO HOURS and the results distributed to all 350,000 participants, then surely a Government department using millions of pounds of tax payer money can manage to pull together test results in an organised fashion and get it right.

As for the view about economic growth I don't have a clue about that. I meant to be only commenting on the numbers as that's more my thing. I am totally clueless when it comes to that kind of thing.

 

[Barclaybasher]

He is two faced. Publishing virus denial diabtribes whilst shielding himself away from the very thing he doesn't believe in.

We so called deniers aren't denying that there is a virus - I just think that the fear created around it is over the top and measures being taken are excessive, inconsistent and not even proven to work.....

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[Macca114]

That is the issue in the UK today - politicians. People from all corners of the UK get on fine, forget the politics, get on with our lives and our motorhoming.

 

[Lynne Roy]

We returned 4 weeks ago, completed our 14 day quarantine and are now thinking of going back. I am terrified of Covid, but we have to carry on living and if we act responsibly and keep ourselves to ourselves we will be fine. We always wear masks, disposable gloves for fuelling up and servicing the van . We avoid towns and hotspots

 

[jongood]

We so called deniers aren't denying that there is a virus - I just think that the fear created around it is over the top and measures being taken are excessive, inconsistent and not even proven to work.....

Well said. I couldnt agree more. I accept that there is a virus, its the response I query.

 

[The Wino]

That's awesome that you have that input. Discussion is always good, particularly if you have that kind of expertise to tap into. Helps take things to a whole new level.

Maybe they will be right and we will hit 50,000 cases next week. It could happen. And if it starts to look unlikely maybe they can find another Excel spreadsheet that can add in another 20,000 right at the last moment.

It boggles the mind that PROFESSIONAL, highly paid researchers could have made that mistake. That level of incompetence does make me question the validity of EVERYTHING we are being told. I seriously doubt Jeff Bezos is running Amazon using spreadsheets, and if something like Parkrun (a not for profit organisation) can collate results from 350,000 runners each Saturday morning and get it spot on with TWO HOURS and the results distributed to all 350,000 participants, then surely a Government department using millions of pounds of tax payer money can manage to pull together test results in an organised fashion and get it right.

As for the view about economic growth I don't have a clue about that. I meant to be only commenting on the numbers as that's more my thing. I am totally clueless when it comes to that kind of thing.

We won't hit 50,000 next week that was the prediction if nothing was done! Although if were at 14,000 today its easy to see how without action we could have been at 25k now and it was roughly doubling every week so I think believable others will not. What makes you think the park run stats are correct!!
Agreed on the keeping stats being rubbish then again if you can charter ferries from people who don't have any ...........

 

[jongood]

Agreed on the keeping stats being rubbish then again if you can charter ferries from people who don't have any ...........

Then again if you re losing the argument try a diversion.

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[The Wino]

Then again if you re losing the argument try a diversion.

If you mean thinking that covid is overdone I don't think that argument is being lost either in a balance of the medical experts the politicians or most of the population.

 

[Barclaybasher]

If you mean thinking that covid is overdone I don't think that argument is being lost either in a balance of the medical experts the politicians or most of the population.

I know diehard believers/shielders who are starting to rebel against the 'rules' because they make no sense..

'Medical Experts' - there has never been any such.... leeches anyone?, blood letting anyone?

Ever met a medical 'expert' ?

I have - 3 self-opinionated idiots that left one of my sons with life changing issues despite being given the facts...

 

[Sue]

Then again if you re losing the argument try a diversion.

So true, in Boris case ...it’s a load of tosh spouted at his ‘virtual’ conference. All a deflection to his response to covid

 

[The Wino]

I know diehard believers/shielders who are starting to rebel against the 'rules' because they make no sense..

'Medical Experts' - there has never been any such.... leeches anyone?, blood letting anyone?

Ever met a medical 'expert' ?

I have - 3 self-opinionated idiots that left one of my sons with life changing issues despite being given the facts...

Just looking at the news looks like Scotland is going to lead the way its clear we haven't done enough to reduce spread yet.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Just looking at the news looks like Scotland is going to lead the way its clear we haven't done enough to reduce spread yet.

Someone in Scotland told the virus ?

Strange how things change when you move from one place to another...
.

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