Tam &Toby do Europe ...Take two

[Northernraider]

OK so I have EHU connected

Engine running and at battery terminals on idle I get 14.25v

At 2000 rpm I get 14.35v

 

[Northernraider]

Something else I don't understand

EHU disconnected again

Panel reading solar + 6.9 / 7 amps

But on the other panel screen it only shows + 5.5amp

Where the other 1.5amp going?

 

[Lenny HB]

The output from solar will constantly vary, the slightest bit of haze or cloud can easily drop the output by an amp or two.

 

[Northernraider]

The output from solar will constantly vary, the slightest bit of haze or cloud can easily drop the output by an amp or two.

No clouds today its blue sky wall to wall and about 25° its melting lol

Those variances are instant though which is weird.

But anyway alternator seems to be putting out ok ...

So im still clueless to the issues

 

[Val 3 dogs]

I know nothing about anything mechanical or electrical so I just have to trust people on that score.
It's what i've done most of my life, looked for the best in others and done the best I can to help others too. It's worked for me, I've met some lovely people, made wonderful friends, no doubt on occasions I've been ripped off but that's been far out-weighed by the good things and times that I have enjoyed.
Call it good luck or karma it works for me, I will continue to believe the best of people until they show me otherwise.
Maybe I'm pushing my luck here but despite the lack of attention it receives my moho is still working well or at least as far as I know it is!

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[tonyidle]

Just an observation , but ASR(VSR) split charge type set ups always seem to get comments of disapproval , and
advise to fit B2B chargers . Yet it would appear that is all thats in a ebl . bit surprised as level of German tech !

No it isn't. There is nothing in the EBL (in relation to charging from the alternator) that a man with a switch couldn't do. I'll repeat: there is no circuitry within the EBL that has any effect on the charge available from the alternator.

A well -designed battery to battery charger will, in laymans terms, fool the alternator into thinking it is charging a flat battery. So a much higher level of charge is available and the better devices can mimic the output of a 4-stage mains charger.

 

[tacr2man]

No it isn't. There is nothing in the EBL (in relation to charging from the alternator) that a man with a switch couldn't do. I'll repeat: there is no circuitry within the EBL that has any effect on the charge available from the alternator.

A well -designed battery to battery charger will, in laymans terms, fool the alternator into thinking it is charging a flat battery. So a much higher level of charge is available and the better devices can mimic the output of a 4-stage mains charger.

thats what i thought i was saying that the ebl just has a relay to hook up the second battery

 

[tonyidle]

The output from solar will constantly vary, the slightest bit of haze or cloud can easily drop the output by an amp or two.

Still too many variables. Northernraider Tam - you would be better, for the duration of these tests, disconnecting the solar panels. Use only one screen on the DT201 and ignore it anyway. If the VOLTAGE measured by your multimeter is the same all the way to, and through, the EBL and there are a few Amps of charge flowing then the alternator, the connections from it to the starter battery, and those to the EBL are all sound.

When the starter battery was reading 14.35v what was the reading at the EBL starter battery terminal and at the EBL leisure battery terminal. We need to follow a set of logical steps the first of which is to remove the variables like solar. Then see what is leaving the starter battery, then see if that is arriving at the EBL, then see if it is leaving the EBL. These measurements need to be taken as close together as possible and without making any changes whilst you are taking them. At this stage no other measurement, including current as long as a few Amps are showing, is relevant.

 

[tonyidle]

Assuming the alternator is OK it can only be a connection in the EBL or the relay, If the relay is PCB mounted it could just be a soldered joint causing the problem

It's possible but as I said to Tam if any joint or connection is HR and still allowing 5+ Amps to flow it won't just giving trouble - it will be hot enough to make smoke, stench, and to burn its surroundings. I'm simply trying to get Tam to follow the Volts. If the voltage is unchanged as you head from the starter battery towards the leisure battery then all connections you pass are OK.

 

[Bart]

A well -designed battery to battery charger will, in laymans terms, fool the alternator into thinking it is charging a flat battery. So a much higher level of charge is available and the better devices can mimic the output of a 4-stage mains charger.

Could not agree more , we have a Sterling 60amp B2B charger installed in our MH and this morning when we set off after a night wild camping our leisure batteries we around 12.39v and after starting the MH and set off driving the wife checked the Victron app for our shunt and we were receiving 40 amps into our leisure battery bank, so yip good investment for us
has Tam Northernraider tried the likes of a jump cable between the vehicle chassis and the engine/gearbox to rule out a faulty earth strap.

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[tonyidle]

Could not agree more , we have a Sterling 60amp B2B charger installed in our MH and this morning when we set off after a night wild camping our leisure batteries we around 12.39v and after starting the MH and set off driving the wife checked the Victron app for our shunt and we were receiving 40 amps into our leisure battery bank, so yip good investment for us
has Tam Northernraider tried the likes of a jump cable between the vehicle chassis and the engine/gearbox to rule out a faulty earth strap.

We're getting there. I mentioned it as a possibility but Tam has a day job so testing is a little disjointed and I don't suppose rain not long ago helps. A good B2B works & is invaluable to someone who spends much time off grid though in the case of Tams van there is, potentially, a fault & I'd much rather that was fixed to his satisfaction before suggesting more electrics.

 

[Northernraider]

Still too many variables. Northernraider Tam - you would be better, for the duration of these tests, disconnecting the solar panels. Use only one screen on the DT201 and ignore it anyway. If the VOLTAGE measured by your multimeter is the same all the way to, and through, the EBL and there are a few Amps of charge flowing then the alternator, the connections from it to the starter battery, and those to the EBL are all sound.

When the starter battery was reading 14.35v what was the reading at the EBL starter battery terminal and at the EBL leisure battery terminal. We need to follow a set of logical steps the first of which is to remove the variables like solar. Then see what is leaving the starter battery, then see if that is arriving at the EBL, then see if it is leaving the EBL. These measurements need to be taken as close together as possible and without making any changes whilst you are taking them. At this stage no other measurement, including current as long as a few Amps are showing, is relevant.

Ok dokey ...ill attempt to trace the volts tomorrow....i was otherwise engaged today replacing the smaller of my 2 solar panels and refitting the bathroom bits...

I'll have to try and run the batteries down a bit again tonight so i get some input.
Will disconnect solar once its dark

 

[gus-lopez]

Is saving a bit of cash worth this amount of stress,time and grief Tam?

It is finding one who is actually any good .

 

[Northernraider]

tonyidle

OK I discharged the batteries again last night...solar was disconnected from system last night.

This morning batteries at 88% 140ah

Started engine .....on start up + 12a reading on panel ....dropped steadily to 5.1a and sits around there.

Measuring volts at starter battery around 14.1v
Measuring at cable from starter in to ebl 13.9 but its hard to get a good connection on these due to location

Measuring cable leaving ebl its the same 13.9v

Put headlights on etc its much the same ..13.84 - 13.9v



But only 5.1amp input


I'm curious what converts the volts to amps?

 

[tonyidle]

Volts = Amps x Resistance
Amps = Volts / Resistance
Resistance = Volts / Amps

In your case Volts = 14.1 - 13.9 = 0.2v

0.2 / 5.1 = 0.039 ohms which is the resistance of the cable from the starter battery to the EBL (which is fine, not excessive)

Did you by any chance check the voltage on the hab battery (with your meter)? We know now that there is no excessive resistance (which could be caused by too thin cable or a poor joint) on the cable from starter battery to EBL and through the EBL. A reading on the leisure battery will check that the EBL to leisure battery cable is OK.

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[Northernraider]

Volts = Amps x Resistance
Amps = Volts / Resistance
Resistance = Volts / Amps

In your case Volts = 14.1 - 13.9 = 0.2v

0.2 / 5.1 = 0.039 ohms which is the resistance of the cable from the starter battery to the EBL (which is fine, not excessive)

Did you by any chance check the voltage on the hab battery (with your meter)? We know now that there is no excessive resistance (which could be caused by too thin cable or a poor joint) on the cable from starter battery to EBL and through the EBL. A reading on the leisure battery will check that the EBL to leisure battery cable is OK.

Yes the voltage at the leisure batteries is the same as the voltage leaving the ebl

It is quite low when just idling it varies between 13.4 and 13.9 ....revving its between 13.9 and 14.2

 

[Lenny HB]

Those figures don't sound too bad, you really need to get the batteries down to 50% then see what happens.

 

[Northernraider]

Those figures don't sound too bad, you really need to get the batteries down to 50% then see what happens.

Why lol ....its pants enough that it doesn't charge fast enough from 80%

2 nights in winter with heating and im knackered

 

[Northernraider]

On another note briefly ....bathroom is now back together ....

But unfortunately my idea of drilling the shower crack and pumping it full of sikaflex didn't work as I had hoped so back to the drawing board on that one

 

[tonyidle]

Why lol ....its pants enough that it doesn't charge fast enough from 80%

2 nights in winter with heating and im knackered

I've said this before. There's nothing wrong. What drives current into the battery is the difference between the voltage at the battery (when off charge) and the voltage at the alternator when it's running. Nothing else. If there is no additional and unwanted resistance in the cables then all is well. You have to understand that there's nothing that can improve the charge rate if the voltages are correct.

Final proof as Lenny HB suggests is to present a bigger load to the alternator by having a more discharged leisure battery. And/or by turning everything on in the hab part of the van.

The way a simple regulated charger or alternator works is to operate at a fixed voltage. In the case of the alternator this is around 14.2 - 14.5 volts. The difference between this and the battery voltage determines the charging current. As the battery is charged it's voltage rises. This cannot be measured whilst connected to the charger but as it does so the current falls. At 14.2v there will alway be current flowing which is why 'smart chargers reduce output to around 13.8v and drive just enough current to look after the battery long-term.

The answer to your intended use of the van is a B2B unit. These work by using inverter circuitry to effectively raise the charging voltage to well above 14.2v until they achieve a maximum safe charging current for the size and type of battery.

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[Northernraider]

I've said this before. There's nothing wrong. What drives current into the battery is the difference between the voltage at the battery (when off charge) and the voltage at the alternator when it's running. Nothing else. If there is no additional and unwanted resistance in the cables then all is well. You have to understand that there's nothing that can improve the charge rate if the voltages are correct.

Final proof as Lenny HB suggests is to present a bigger load to the alternator by having a more discharged leisure battery. And/or by turning everything on in the hab part of the van.

The way a simple regulated charger or alternator works is to operate at a fixed voltage. In the case of the alternator this is around 14.2 - 14.5 volts. The difference between this and the battery voltage determines the charging current. As the battery is charged it's voltage rises. This cannot be measured whilst connected to the charger but as it does so the current falls. At 14.2v there will alway be current flowing which is why 'smart chargers reduce output to around 13.8v and drive just enough current to look after the battery long-term.

The answer to your intended use of the van is a B2B unit. These work by using inverter circuitry to effectively raise the charging voltage to well above 14.2v until they achieve a maximum safe charging current for the size and type of battery.

I just don't get then if that's the case why are the other folk with the same set up getting a higher charge rate ?


I would have thought they would produce the same.

I had a quick look at b2b chargers online last night but so many different ones

 

[Northernraider]

So ill leave the solar and ehu disconnected at the minute and run the batteries lower out of curiosity but I thought we had established the input was lower than it should be when below 80%

 

[Lenny HB]

I've just disconnected my solar and turned on TV, Stereo & fridge on 12v.
When the batteries get down a bit I'll see what I get into them.

 

[Northernraider]

I've just disconnected my solar and turned on TV, Stereo & fridge on 12v.
When the batteries get down a bit I'll see what I get into them.

Mine is at 90% just now so I'll need to leave all the lights on and the TV from now till i get home from work at 01.30 ....that should take them down to around 70- 75% i think

 

[Lenny HB]

OK Tam my van has the standard charging via the split charge in the EBL.

Took my batteries down 64% (3 x 78a/h Gels).
Started the engine and took readings at 2000 rpm. At tickover charge rate is a about 3 to 4 amps less.
My batteries are Gels so when they are low they will take a higher initial charge.

1st reading after start up.
2nd a couple of mins later.

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[Northernraider]

I don’t understand whats happening with mine

I've just been home to let dogs out ....mine was at 89% when I left at 4.30 ...
I left all lights on and the TV.....its now reading 78% but its at 12.3v which isnt great.

Thats with an approx 4.7ah drain

Will see what its down at by 1.30 and what it rises back to when everything switched off.

And then ill see what I get out of charger in the morning.

 

[Lenny HB]

To get mine down to 64% I was drawing 16 amps for 4 hours.
I was surprised at the high charge current I was getting.

 

[Northernraider]

To get mine down to 64% I was drawing 16 amps for 4 hours.
I was surprised at the high charge current I was getting.

I'd have thought yours would have a b2b ....does it not have a smart alternator ?

 

[Lenny HB]

I'd have thought yours would have a b2b ....does it not have a smart alternator ?

Nope, standard alternator. Fiat's for camper conversions always had a standard alternator until the Euro 6d engine last year.

My set up is the same as yours except my alternator is probably a higher a output I think its either 160 or 180 amp.

 

[intokenny]

Nope, standard alternator. Fiat's for camper conversions always had a standard alternator until the Euro 6d engine last year.

My set up is the same as yours except my alternator is probably a higher a output I think its either 160 or 180 amp.

Lenny, would that output from the alternator make a difference?

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