Site electricity usage - recharging electric cars???

[gus-lopez]

No I am saying if a pitch without electricity is £20 and another one irrespective of the distance is £25 'with' electricity the cost of electricity is £5 and I have to 'prove' that' £5 worth of electricity has been used!

No you don't .you misunderstand the rules

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/74486/11782-resaleupdateoct05.pdf

100% Crystal clear I cannot sell electricity for a penny more than I pay for it :- Top right paragraph

I 'can' include it in the pitch price

I am very happy for anyone that doesn't like my business model to 'Do One' and vote with your feet, but it will be like voting for the Liberal Democrats, won't change anything

As above you cannot charge more for a UNIT of electricity than you pay.You can charge what you want additionally for the cost of infrastructure installation as included in the 'pitch with electric' price.

No the law is clear, but not everyone understands the law.

No you don't try reading the whole thing it applies only to the cost per unit. You can recover infrastucture costs in other ways.
By your logic if I rent 2 spaces one with electric at £25/night & the one next door at £20 /night & then use only 1 unit on the electric supplied pitch you, by your logic, have illegally charged £5 per unit?

Yes it is far easier to charge 'with ehu' & hope they don't use much

 

[Jamesh]

You could charge £20 without ehu and £35 with ehu on the grounds that 12h ehu might cost £15.

And who is going to monitor the usage of each pitch?

I presume site owners take the average of all ehu pitches?? If it starts rising with loads of Tesla's then up goes the ehu extra charge.

 

[eddie]

No you don't .you misunderstand the rules


As above you cannot charge more for a UNIT of electricity than you pay.You can charge what you want additionally for the cost of infrastructure installation as included in the 'pitch with electric' price.



No you don't try reading the whole thing it applies only to the cost per unit. You can recover infrastucture costs in other ways.
By your logic if I rent 2 spaces one with electric at £25/night & the one next door at £20 /night & then use only 1 unit on the electric supplied pitch you, by your logic, have illegally charged £5 per unit?

Yes it is far easier to charge 'with ehu' & hope they don't use much

I do understand the fudges and the ‘ways around it’ just bear in mind we got planning permission in 2000 and opened in 2005 and the legalisation was introduced in 2003 and campsites and marinas adopted the included policy rather than run foul of bad legislation, it was heavily discussed at the time what we could and couldn’t do.

I can’t ‘change’ my infrastructure charge, making up the difference between what I’ve actually paid for the electricity used and what that has cost, so we are still in the same boat we run the risk of breaking the law,, whereas include it in the fee, no meters, pre payment cards, 100% convenient for our customers, and will remain that way till the place get plowed up and mobile homes for the discerning OAP and the place gets called Cornish Bridge, from this World to the next

 

[CumbriaPaul]

I've recently been to a site which includes 10kW per day but charges for any over. I'm not sure how much as we only used 9, but fully understand their situation. They read the meter on arrival and departure.

 

[peterc10]

The arguments here are getting repetitive. Each to their own is my motto. Which is why our motorhome is used more time on mainland Europe that in the UK. The motorhome market there is much more developed and there is much more choice and the prices reflect what you get. This spring we spent 6 weeks away in France, Spain and Portugal and not once did we need to book in advance or have to park next to a little white peg. For us it is not about the money, it is more about the sense of freedom and spontaneity.

There is an increasing market for the "European way" in the UK as can be witnessed by the success Campra are having. Still small but it is growing. And there are now plenty of pubs and other commercial organisations that are willing to allow you to stop for the night. We would much rather spend £30 on meals and drinks in a pub and have a free night on their car park rather than having to pay the £30 to a campsite in the middle of nowhere and have to cook for ourselves.

We are doing more motorhoming in the UK this year and have put our name down for 5 MHF meets this summer. Only one of them will have EHUs available, the rest we have to make do without. But they are still fully booked. So there is a market for simplicity amongst many funsters.

But in all of this we must remember that eddievanbitz wins both ways . His campsite caters for those that want EHUs. And his main business gets paid for putting in the lithium batteries, solar panels and other goodies that enable motorhomers to not need them.

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[MillyMoHo]

I think metered electricity will become the norm. Already exists on some continental sites.

Metered electricity is a better idea, so you pay for what you use. We’re finding on some Caravan Club CLs that they give you so many units of electric per day. So far, we’ve always used less, but you don’t get a refund.

 

[MillyMoHo]

I am still a little puzzled as to where all this extra power is coming from to charge all the EV s that we are supposed to be buying. I assume the cost of charging will have trebled buy the Autumn when the new price increase is applied. No doubt when everyone plugs in their EV s at the CAMC Sites all the lights will go out!

The theory is good but what about reality?

Hydrogen fuel cells will possibly be the future. I did wonder how the people in Scotland last winter charged their vehicles when they had about a fortnight’s power cuts, plus their phones.

 

[Paul Wilkins]

Anyone mind if I plug in my TIG welder?

 

[minesapint]

Fortunately we have a free market in the UK.

Some campsites will offer separate EV hookup points charged separately.
Some will meter it at the pitch.
Some will ban it entirely.
Others will go off grid.
Others will give you a choice.

The freemarket is a marvellous thing and you will be able to find campsites that suite you.

Here is one thing to remember though. Future EV motorhomes won't be carrying around a leisure battery or gas bottle or any of the related stuff. They will all run directly off the vehicle battery. I personally think solar panels will also become a thing of the past on motorhomes.
A 100AH lead acid leisure battery has <50 AH of usable electric in it. This equates to 600Wh of usable power. An EV can come with between 60,000Wh and 100,000Wh. So running out of leisure battery is not going to be an issue anymore.
Going off grid is going to be much much easier.

If a campsite starts charging excessive amounts for EV charging/hookups. It will be worth charging up your vehicle at the nearest services and arriving on pitch fully charged and declining a hookup.
Lots of variations, options and possibilities going forward. We will be spoiled for choice in the medium to long term. Short term, yes there are going to be issues, some price gouging and some failures. But medium to long term I think it will be great.

Surely if you go off grid/wilding, with an EV you will cut the range down drastically, with travel use and domestic use.

On a vehicle chat line recently there was a plumber who bought an electric transit for his work, it was OK empty but when he put his tools etc in it he was well down on range
.
So how can a leccy van support site usage and a normal days travel without running out of juice.

When in Spain or France an average days journey is often 200 to 300 Kms, using the leccy transit as a bench mark, it would take 3 days to travel 1 days distance.

Lets hope a better solution than the EV offering we now have is found., maybe the soloution that JCB has put in place for its machinery would be a better option.
The plumber sold his leccy van and bought a diesel to replace it.

 

[oggiebedworth]

I've had a long held view on people who use electricity for every thig on site "coz I paid for it". But when it comes to leaving fan heaters on in awnings when going out, heaters on in van/caravan 24/7 and opening windows to cool off ( yes I do know people who do) and buying induction stoves because they do not want to use there own gas, I start to get grumpy! I am not an "eco worrier" but do hate waste. Today on a site in France I saw someone using the electricity to charge their car (German with a medium size caravan so must have come a distance) With the advancement in EV ranges I guess this will be happen more and more. Site owners rising electricity costs must be causing a real problem and at the end of the day they are a business. This can only result in them having to charge more for electricity which could make some increase their usage as they now have to pay more! I for one would welcome being charged for what I use as I do on the site I use in Spain but do appreciate the investment involved for site owners. What do Funsters think - especially those who run/own sites?

I saw this in France as well - but with a 6 or 10 amp supply from the post - it will take a very long time to top up the battery. Which means for a caravanner that the vehicle is more or less out of action - better to take it to a charging point surely? I’m on my second electric vehicle and know very well that you don’t mess about with the range - not range anxiety - range reality - got home with 4 miles to spare the other day - a tortoise on the display - too close!!

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[Lenny HB]

But in all of this we must remember that @eddievanbitz wins both ways . His campsite caters for those that want EHUs. And his main business gets paid for putting in the lithium batteries, solar panels and other goodies that enable motorhomers to not need them.

What's known as a hypocrite then.

 

[joe and sue]

What's known as a hypocrite then.

No just a very astute businessman

 

[breeks]

Do remember some years ago begin on a site. The guy behind me was on a non electric. Every couple of nights he would run a cable to a empty socket as soon as it got dark then pull it out early the following day. I assume there will need to be locks somewhere to stop things like that.

Grass

 

[Gromett]

Surely if you go off grid/wilding, with an EV you will cut the range down drastically, with travel use and domestic use.

On a vehicle chat line recently there was a plumber who bought an electric transit for his work, it was OK empty but when he put his tools etc in it he was well down on range
.
So how can a leccy van support site usage and a normal days travel without running out of juice.

Your 100Ah lead acid battery has 50Ah usable. which equates to .6Kwh of battery. If you have a 200Ah battery bank and go offgrid for a week with that, then going offgrid in an EV for one night and using a whole 1.2KWh will take around 3 miles off your range..

Wild campers tend to move every day, so getting topped up at a fast charger wouldn't be an issue. If you are an energy hog and use say a whole 500Ah of battery capacity in one night, then this is equivalent to 3Kwh of battery power or 9 miles of range.
A stop off at a fast charger will take you literally 6 minutes to top this huge amount of usage up at the slowest 50Kwh fast charger.

I did a quick calc based on my normal usage from when I was fulltiming and not using campsites. I was travelling 50 miles a day and had 500Ah of battery which lasted a week without sunlight before I had to hit the generator. With an EV with 250 mile range I could go 4 days easily then hit a fast charger to top up.

The only downside to this is cost. I would be losing the free electric I used to get during the summer because under this scenario I do not have any solar installed (Pointless).

 

[Landy lover]

Way back in 2005 we stayed on a site near Leicester and that had pay as you go meters £1 in the slot - when you booked in you were given a £1 coin and plus what was left by previous occupant. After that you fed the meter according to your needs

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[joe and sue]

Your 100Ah lead acid battery has 50Ah usable. which equates to .6Kwh of battery. If you have a 200Ah battery bank and go offgrid for a week with that, then going offgrid in an EV for one night and using a whole 1.2KWh will take around 3 miles off your range..

Wild campers tend to move every day, so getting topped up at a fast charger wouldn't be an issue. If you are an energy hog and use say a whole 500Ah of battery capacity in one night, then this is equivalent to 3Kwh of battery power or 9 miles of range.
A stop off at a fast charger will take you literally 6 minutes to top this huge amount of usage up at the slowest 50Kwh fast charger.

I did a quick calc based on my normal usage from when I was fulltiming and not using campsites. I was travelling 50 miles a day and had 500Ah of battery which lasted a week without sunlight before I had to hit the generator. With an EV with 250 mile range I could go 4 days easily then hit a fast charger to top up.

The only downside to this is cost. I would be losing the free electric I used to get during the summer because under this scenario I do not have any solar installed (Pointless).

A couple of questions , from a non leccy savvy numpty,!!
If a 100ah battery only has 50ah available, surely it is only a 50ah battery and should be sold as such, have we all been mis sold battery capacity??
If solar is pointless in a battery powered vehicle, why are we seeing all these solar farms being built, surely any degree of solar would help extend battery life.
Or am i missing something here

 

[Gromett]

minesapint I just thought, the next question is likely to be... What if I am not in an area where there are any fast chargers.

I think by the time this becomes an issue, there will be fast chargers everywhere. But even using a normal 14KW or 22KW destination charger replacing the previous nights 3KWh (EXTREME) of usage would only take 8 - 12 minutes.
So basically, go to a local supermarket, hotel, cafe, council car park etc. Grab a coffee and hookup for 15 minutes to top up your usage.

Remember the examples I am giving are the extremes. Normal people don't and can't use 3KW when wilding.

 

[Gromett]

A couple of questions , from a non leccy savvy numpty,!!
If a 100ah battery only has 50ah available, surely it is only a 50ah battery and should be sold as such, have we all been mis sold battery capacity??

Because technically it does contain 100AH. But if you use it, you will rapidly kill the battery. 50% utilisation is usually the maximum recommended depth of discharge to allow you to get a decent lifespan out of the battery.

If solar is pointless in a battery powered vehicle, why are we seeing all these solar farms being built, surely any degree of solar would help extend battery life.
Or am i missing something here

If you could fit xMW of solar panels to the roof of your van without adding weight and drag then it would be worth adding.

But adding a 100w panel (0.1Kw) adds weight and drag to an EV and won't even touch a 60KWh battery never mind bigger ones I expect to see in panel vans later.

A 100W panel will have an impact on a 110ah (.6Kwh) leisure battery as it is 1/6th the size. A 0.1Kw panel is only 1/60th the size of a 60KWh battery.

The drag a panel adds to a van can be considerable. This may not be noticeable in a diesel but you are most definitely burning additional diesel to push it through the air. Then add the weight.
So not only are you getting very little benefit from adding a solar panel to an EV, you are actually reducing it's range as you do so.

 

[Jamesh]

Your 100Ah lead acid battery has 50Ah usable. which equates to .6Kwh of battery. If you have a 200Ah battery bank and go offgrid for a week with that, then going offgrid in an EV for one night and using a whole 1.2KWh will take around 3 miles off your range..

Wild campers tend to move every day, so getting topped up at a fast charger wouldn't be an issue. If you are an energy hog and use say a whole 500Ah of battery capacity in one night, then this is equivalent to 3Kwh of battery power or 9 miles of range.
A stop off at a fast charger will take you literally 6 minutes to top this huge amount of usage up at the slowest 50Kwh fast charger.

I did a quick calc based on my normal usage from when I was fulltiming and not using campsites. I was travelling 50 miles a day and had 500Ah of battery which lasted a week without sunlight before I had to hit the generator. With an EV with 250 mile range I could go 4 days easily then hit a fast charger to top up.

The only downside to this is cost. I would be losing the free electric I used to get during the summer because under this scenario I do not have any solar installed (Pointless).

Question is are charging points capable of accepting a 6-7-8m motorhome??

 

[SomeoneElse]

What a thread lots of entrenched views.
My entrenched view is that I don't need or want EHU. The CLs I've use have given me a lower price without it. I would have stayed even if I had to pay for something I didn't want because they were where I wanted to be.
Hurrah for THS usually a field with a tap in the corner and a price to match. Their downside is they're very popular now and most now require advanced booking.

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[Gromett]

My entrenched view is that I don't need or want EHU. The CLs I've use have given me a lower price without it.

Fantastic. I was much the same for a very long time.

BUT, the acid question is... Do you want to ban EHU because you don't use them? do you want to force businesses like Eddie's to be forced to make it optional? Or do you accept in a free market some will offer it, some won't and some will make it an optional thing and you are ok with that?

 

[Gromett]

Question is are charging points capable of accepting a 6-7-8m motorhome??

sorry? Can you fit in a cardboard box...

It depends on how big the cardboard box is. Depends on how big the parking bay attached to the charging point is.

 

[Gaston aires]

Cars, bikes, appliances, there has to be a case for multi level pitch prices. Pitch without leccy price. Leccy supplied and charged for usage. Germany and Italy have been doing this for years.
That would stop the waster’s.
Phil

 

[SomeoneElse]

I

Fantastic. I was much the same for a very long time.

BUT, the acid question is... Do you want to ban EHU because you don't use them? do you want to force businesses like Eddie's to be forced to make it optional? Or do you accept in a free market some will offer it, some won't and some will make it an optional thing and you are ok with that?

I don't want to dictate anything, I'm a consumer and as such make my choices in the market. My main choices THSs and frequent traveller tickets on eurotunnel. If cheaper simpler sites (aires) were available in the UK I might make different decisions.

 

[Jamesh]

sorry? Can you fit in a cardboard box...

It depends on how big the cardboard box is. Depends on how big the parking bay attached to the charging point is.

I meant most chargers are in front of standard car sized parking spaces, For MH your going to need bigger bays.... I haven't seen any yet?

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[Gromett]

I don't want to dictate anything,

So the third option then

Or do you accept in a free market some will offer it, some won't and some will make it an optional thing and you are ok with that?

If so then we don't have anything to argue about

 

[Gromett]

I meant most chargers are in front of standard car sized parking spaces, For MH your going to need bigger bays.... I haven't seen any yet?

supply usually follows demand. Works vans will cause a rethink if one is necessary.

 

[SomeoneElse]

Except Gromett I don't think its a free market, my view is that its a very regulated market. I make my choices in that market.

 

[eddie]

Except Gromett I don't think its a free market, my view is that its a very regulated market. I make my choices in that market.

Its probably one of the freest, most independent markets there is, when you take CL’s into the equation

Who in ‘your view‘ do you think ‘regulates” the market?

 

[Nedge68]

We have an electric car and have seen a steady increase in what we pay, you pay per kWH and the price varies massively, with some charging £0.70 per kWH. As people are effectively forced into electric vehicles this is only going to get worse. Paying for what you use is the only ‘fair’ way, but I can see that for a site to retrospectively fit the equipment is not practical or cost effective. If we are using our Motorhome I can’t see us either towing or driving our electric car around with us so we can charge it up on EHU

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