Residency / Citizenship in another EU country - How easy or hard?

[Freespirit1]

What should definitely happen is after Brexit, those that want to remain part of Europe should be allowed to keep their EU citizenship to work and travel freely. This from the independent:

The Brexit Secretary said he would “look seriously” at “associate citizenship” – and idea backed by the European Parliament to allow Brits to keep the right to live and work in the EU.

Us associate citizens, can then move freely between borders, use the E111, have EU number plates, maroon passports, can enjoy EU food and have the European Court of Human rights to protect us.

Those that want to disassociate themselves from the EU can have their shiny new blue British only passports,GB license plates, get stopped at borders, have extra health insurance, get ruled by British politicians only and eat using their ration cards.

It's a superb solution to the whole thing.

Steve - as much as I agree with your sentiments I think it is best to keep Brexit out of this thread if we are going to try and get some help for me and you from our ex -pats who have already gone down this route - we don’t want the Brexit supporters hijacking this thread please and you and me should refrain from stirring them up please!

 

[Silver-Fox]

we don’t want the Brexit supporters hijacking this thread please and you and me should refrain from stirring them up!

As an observation most of the posts I have seen about general subjects, then turned into a Brexit leave/remain disagreement has been started by remainers.
Just saying like

 

[Yorick]

So some are saying it's illegal for a resident (me) to drive an English vehicle. Is that one that belongs to them?

I'm gonna transfer my log book to my missus so it's all legal. She's still UK.

So does this mean that I can't drive it, even though I'd be on the new insurance ?

 

[Freespirit1]

As an observation most of the posts I have seen about general subjects, then turned into a Brexit leave/remain disagreement has been started by remainers.
Just saying like

Well - you and me are probably guilty of that being on opposite sides so let’s you and me try it this way eh! and see if we can keep it like that

 

[Makingtrax]

Steve - as much as I agree with your sentiments I think it is best to keep Brexit out of this thread if we are going to try and get some help for me and you from our ex -pats who have already gone down this route - we don’t want the Brexit supporters hijacking this thread please and you and me should refrain from stirring them up please!

I'm being serious Chris. If you want to benefit from travel and freedom of movement as you mention in your opening post. Wouldn't this be the solution, it appears to be on the table at the moment. Unless you specifically want to be a citizen of another country.

This was reported recently in all the papers.

UK Brexit boss David Davis told MPs in London yesterday that he is interested in discussing the idea of optional EU citizenship for Brits.

The offer, originally floated by the European Parliament’s lead Brexit negotiator Guy Verhofstadt, aims to allow UK citizens who want to continue to benefit from the advantages of EU membership – including free movement and the right to vote in European elections – to do so.

I'm really hoping this comes about, it could be a life line for motorhomers and Europhiles alike.

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[Freespirit1]

I'm being serious Chris. If you want to benefit from travel and freedom of movement as you mention in your opening post. Wouldn't this be the solution, it appears to be on the table at the moment. Unless you specifically want to be a citizen of another country.

This was reported recently in all the papers.

UK Brexit boss David Davis told MPs in London yesterday that he is interested in discussing the idea of optional EU citizenship for Brits.

The offer, originally floated by the European Parliament’s lead Brexit negotiator Guy Verhofstadt, aims to allow UK citizens who want to continue to benefit from the advantages of EU membership – including free movement and the right to vote in European elections – to do so.

I'm really hoping this comes about, it could be a life line for motorhomers and Europhiles alike.

Umm - extreamly interesting - I totally agree that is the best option - however i’m looking at alternatives here for Motorhomers if we don’t get that option - let’s hope it is not resisted by the hard line Brexiteers!

 

[jumar]

Like most things in Spain, you can get away with it only until, you are caught, until there is a clamp down, until you fall out with your neighbour, who then shops you......
Spanish authorities are not what you can call..."On the Ball" but when needed to do so, can impose anything the law allows them to do, its times like this that they can come down on you like "Hell"...
Getting on the right side of the law can also be made difficult, that's why so many shy away, avoid it, it can be difficult, because they make it difficult, because its the way it's done here, the Spanish way, their way, no logic, can do your head in, @jumartoo and I have done it, but we live here, drive Spanish registered vehicles, NOT UK ones.
Our process to become legal was made easier by asking other people who know, for example. @gus-lopez rather that someone who is employed to know, it wasn't too difficult, but in our situation was required...by Law.....even though nobody checks....UNTIL THEY DO.

 

[busby]

What should definitely happen is after Brexit, those that want to remain part of Europe should be allowed to keep their EU citizenship to work and travel freely. This from the independent:

The Brexit Secretary said he would “look seriously” at “associate citizenship” – and idea backed by the European Parliament to allow Brits to keep the right to live and work in the EU.

Us associate citizens, can then move freely between borders, use the E111, have EU number plates, maroon passports, can enjoy EU food and have the European Court of Human rights to protect us.

Those that want to disassociate themselves from the EU can have their shiny new blue British only passports,GB license plates, get stopped at borders, have extra health insurance, get ruled by British politicians only and eat using their ration cards.

It's a superb solution to the whole thing.

What borders?? BUSBY..

 

[busby]

What should definitely happen is after Brexit, those that want to remain part of Europe should be allowed to keep their EU citizenship to work and travel freely. This from the independent:

The Brexit Secretary said he would “look seriously” at “associate citizenship” – and idea backed by the European Parliament to allow Brits to keep the right to live and work in the EU.

Us associate citizens, can then move freely between borders, use the E111, have EU number plates, maroon passports, can enjoy EU food and have the European Court of Human rights to protect us.

Those that want to disassociate themselves from the EU can have their shiny new blue British only passports,GB license plates, get stopped at borders, have extra health insurance, get ruled by British politicians only and eat using their ration cards.

It's a superb solution to the whole thing.

What borders,,/??You will still be able to travel and work in Europe,,BUSBY,,

 

[Freespirit1]

So some are saying it's illegal for a resident (me) to drive an English vehicle. Is that one that belongs to them?

I'm gonna transfer my log book to my missus so it's all legal. She's still UK.

So does this mean that I can't drive it, even though I'd be on the new insurance ?

Well - if your wife Penny stays with you 90 consecutive days or longer ( a big ask- granted ) and does not return to another country outside of Spain then she it seems will automatically be viewed by the law as a resident of Spain and therefore they could impound the British Reg vehicle if she drives it and fine her! @gus-lopez maybe will confirm?

Also if she resets the 90 day rule by leaving Spanish territory before 90 days BUT exceeds 183 cumulative days within a 12 month period on Spanish territory then again she will automatically be regarded by Spanish law to be a resident of Spain and therefore would again not be able to drive a British Reg vehicle @gus-lopez to confirm? My guess is that she probably does exceed the 183 day cumulative rule on a regular annual basis!

My question is : what determines the start date and end date of the 12 month period please?

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[tacr2man]

What should definitely happen is after Brexit, those that want to remain part of Europe should be allowed to keep their EU citizenship to work and travel freely. This from the independent:

The Brexit Secretary said he would “look seriously” at “associate citizenship” – and idea backed by the European Parliament to allow Brits to keep the right to live and work in the EU.

Us associate citizens, can then move freely between borders, use the E111, have EU number plates, maroon passports, can enjoy EU food and have the European Court of Human rights to protect us.

Those that want to disassociate themselves from the EU can have their shiny new blue British only passports,GB license plates, get stopped at borders, have extra health insurance, get ruled by British politicians only and eat using their ration cards.

It's a superb solution to the whole thing.

From your POV obviously ,
If you don't want the benefits of being in a sovereign UK , you already have a solution , but I suppose its the old cake and eat thing ? If you think the EU is eden then why not revoke your UK passport and rights and put YMWYMI
ps the ECJ part is the biggest non starter.

 

[tacr2man]

Money solves most things so maybe paying for extra days access might be the answer ?

What would be a fair daily rate ?

 

[busby]

Well - if your wife Penny stays with you 90 consecutive days or longer ( a big ask- granted ) and does not return to another country outside of Spain then she it seems will automatically be viewed by the law as a resident of Spain and therefore they could impound the British Reg vehicle if she drives it and fine her! @gus-lopez maybe will confirm?

Also if she resets the 90 day rule by leaving Spanish territory before 90 days BUT exceeds 183 cumulative days within a 12 month period on Spanish territory then again she will automatically be regarded by Spanish law to be a resident of Spain and therefore would again not be able to drive a British Reg vehicle @gus-lopez to confirm? My guess is that she probably does exceed the 183 day cumulative rule on a regular annual basis!

My question is : what determines the start date and end date of the 12 month period please?

And who knows in authority if you enter Spain by road,,BUSBY,,

 

[Freespirit1]

Money solves most things so maybe paying for extra days access might be the answer ?

What would be a fair daily rate ?

Well - if Associate European Citizenship comes at a cost and quite understandably - then I personally would think an annual fee of perhaps £300 - £500 would be a fair price to pay!

 

[Freespirit1]

And who knows in authority if you enter Spain by road,,BUSBY,,

Apparently the Spanish authorities monitor British and other Foreign vehicles and assume that if they stay within their territory for longer than 90 days then the driver has stayed there that long as well!

We all need that confirmed in some way or other of course and that comes from the experiences of our ex-pat Funsters here I’m hoping?

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[busby]

Apparently the Spanish authorities monitor British and other Foreign vehicles and assume that if they stay within their territory for longer than 90 days then the driver has stayed there that long as well!

We all need that confirmed in some way or other of course and that comes from the experiences of our ex-pat Funsters here I’m hoping?

I have friends that spend 9 months a year in Spain,,illegal yes but thousands do,,bit like uk but you just keep your head down,,BUSBY,,

 

[Minxy]

My question is : what determines the start date and end date of the 12 month period please?

There won't be a 'set' one as such as it will 'move' each day as it will be a rolling 12 month period, for example if you go into Spain on 31st January that means the rolling period being considered would have 'started' on 1st February the previous year, on 10th February it would be from 11th February the previous year etc.

 

[Makingtrax]

From your POV obviously ,
If you don't want the benefits of being in a sovereign UK , you already have a solution , but I suppose its the old cake and eat thing ? If you think the EU is eden then why not revoke your UK passport and rights and put YMWYMI
ps the ECJ part is the biggest non starter.

Benefits of being in a sovereign UK? You're trying to provoke me into a Brexit discussion by talking nonsense, when I'm trying to avoid it for the sake of the OP

 

[Minxy]

Apparently the Spanish authorities monitor British and other Foreign vehicles and assume that if they stay within their territory for longer than 90 days then the driver has stayed there that long as well!

We all need that confirmed in some way or other of course and that comes from the experiences of our ex-pat Funsters here I’m hoping?

I suspect that rather than the authorities having to prove that someone has been there over the permitted period and not registering the accused will have to prove they haven't ... that could be tricky and difficult to do!

 

[Freespirit1]

There won't be a 'set' one as such as it will 'move' each day as it will be a rolling 12 month period, for example if you go into Spain on 31st January that means the rolling period being considered would have 'started' on 1st February the previous year, on 10th February it would be from 11th February the previous year etc.

I can understand that for the 90 day rule however if you exit Spain before the 90 days - your saying that on your return the 12 month period resets and starts again? Cumulative means surely they add up all your days on a number of visits!

Ok - I think I understand now lol - they then count up your days in the previous 12 month period and that’s when they say you’ve exceeded 183 days and your now entering Spain as a resident ! - impound your vehicle , fine you and let you go on your way on foot lol.

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[Minxy]

I can understand that for the 90 day rule however if you exit Spain before the 90 days - your saying that on your return the 12 month period resets and starts again? Cumulative means surely they add up all your days on a number of visits!

Gus has already answered that, the 90 days is the maximum period in one 'chunk', the 183 days is for the whole of the of the 12 month period, so if you go for several visits, if they add up to 183 days in the whole 12 month period up to that day you can't official go anymore, when and how long you can go again will depend on when the first of the 183 days started and how long you were initially there for ...

 

[gus-lopez]

It is when you read stuff like that you understand were the nonsense comes from.

Are you saying that the lifestyle group are right or wrong please?[/QUOTE]
Much of it is ,yes, You cannot have a vehicle here for nearly 12 months is the 1st glaring error. Not using it anyway.

So some are saying it's illegal for a resident (me) to drive an English vehicle. Is that one that belongs to them?

I'm gonna transfer my log book to my missus so it's all legal. She's still UK.

So does this mean that I can't drive it, even though I'd be on the new insurance ?

Yes you still wouldn't be able to legally drive it.
You might get away with it for years for ever but the real problem would come in the event of an accident in which there were injuries or death.
In any event if you are a resident they would class your wife as resident without any legal proof to the contrary. Like tax it would come down to "where is your/her centre of interest?"

It is illegal for you, the resident , to drive anything with foreign plates whether owned or borrowed. Same as when I return to the Uk my spanish vehicle cannot be driven by any UK resident legally.
The thing is as a resident there is a time period before your UK licence has to be changed to a Spanish one /registered at Trafico. In the event of an on the ball Trafico officer asking for the licence & spotting that you have a spanish one & the vehicle is UK then a @poacher s post No:18 stated you'll be walking.

**There has appeared in some 'Your Europe' links a paragraph that states " it can be driven when the owner is in vehicle as well " but this appears to be relatively new & there is no chance of any one here even knowing of it .**

Well - if your wife Penny stays with you 90 consecutive days or longer ( a big ask- granted ) and does not return to another country outside of Spain then she it seems will automatically be viewed by the law as a resident of Spain and therefore they could impound the British Reg vehicle if she drives it and fine her! @gus-lopez maybe will confirm?

Also if she resets the 90 day rule by leaving Spanish territory before 90 days BUT exceeds 183 cumulative days within a 12 month period on Spanish territory then again she will automatically be regarded by Spanish law to be a resident of Spain and therefore would again not be able to drive a British Reg vehicle @gus-lopez to confirm? My guess is that she probably does exceed the 183 day cumulative rule on a regular annual basis!

My question is : what determines the start date and end date of the 12 month period please?

Yes & Yes see reply above.. It would normally be a rolling 12 month period & the onus would be on you to prove it.

And who knows in authority if you enter Spain by road,,BUSBY,,

Even on the smaller roads there are cameras. If it is getting messy/nasty or an accident with injury/death involved they will normally be able to confirm/disprove your statement as it is down to you to prove it.

I can understand that for the 90 day rule however if you exit Spain before the 90 days - your saying that on your return the 12 month period resets and starts again? Cumulative means surely they add up all your days on a number of visits!

Ok - I think I understand now lol - they then count up your days in the previous 12 month period and that’s when they say you’ve exceeded 183 days and your now entering Spain as a resident ! - impound your vehicle , fine you and let you go on your way on foot lol.

Yes & no. "residency" is 90 days cumulative & what they'd be looking for . Leave after 89 days & the clock resets . I keep all & anything so that I can prove when traveling that I comply.

I very much doubt that on the side of the road they would be interested in you exceeding, & them being able to prove additionally, that your total days in the country exceeded 183 cumulatively & therefore you would be "Tax Resident" .
Even if they did as long as you have not exceeded 90 days consecutively in any period during the previous 12 months you have no problem driving the vehicle. They could only report you for being ,possibly, a "tax resident"

 

[gus-lopez]

As a Spanish registered permanent resident I have on 3 occasions been stopped/interviewed at Dover. Once in car ,twice in the MH.
On each occasion exactly the same questions.
" Are you returning ?"
" Purpose of visit?"
" How long have you owned the vehicle?"
"paperwork" ( I had to prove I was a spanish resident/spahish licence holder allowing me to legally drive it in UK as a British subject. The same as I would have to do on the side of the road)
" Are you intending to stay over 90 days ? "
" The vehicle has to leave when you do & cannot be sold /lent/ etc;"

& if you have passengers they are all asked the same questions.

 

[Snowbird]

The simple answer is, if you want to live in Spain, buy a Spanish registered vehicle. Pay your Spanish taxes and any other dues. Why cherry pick the best from both countries and then try to excuse your wrong doings. How many times have I heard people say that immigrants to the UK do not want to abide by our laws. Its no different if a Brit is living in Spain. When in Rome !!!.

 

[The Nomad]

I have no idea why so many people choose to still believe “the guy down the pub”, or the vehicle seller who is trying to offload the British plated car/bike onto you on something as serious and important as this, rather than acquainting themselves with the actual law.

The first BIG warning sign for you that they haven't got a clue what they are talking about is when they refer to a “UK plated” vehicle.
There is not such thing.
It is a “British plated” vehicle, under the British registration system, as Northern Ireland has it's own separate registration system

In order for a British registered vehicle to be legally used anywhere else across the EU, it must at all times be in compliance with all the legal requirements of its "home" country.
This legal rule applies equally to all other vehicles registered in the EU - thus it would apply if you were driving a Spanish registered vehicle in Britain.



Living here is NOT in fact some sort of jolly kiddies let's-pretend, fantasy game, where Brits (and anyone else) only need to abide by those Spanish laws that they want to apply to them, and can avoid criminal responsibility, court, and prison, by saying “ lalalalala” with their fingers in their ears.

Let us be perfectly clear on this. It is not difficult. To be used legally on Spanish roads, or any other roads outside of Britain, a British registered car/motorbike MUST have current British road fund licence (and thus NOT be criminally fraudulently “SORN”d at some fantasy British address: and it must have a current British MOT certificate (if of an age where an MOT certificate is needed).



I will repeat:
If in doubt, please read this bit slowly:- to be used legally on Spanish roads, or any other roads within or outside of Britain, a British registered car/motorbike MUST have current British road fund licence, and a current British MOT certificate (if of an age where an MOT certificate is needed).





Remember also, that you can only use a British registered vehicle in Spain, even when properly Taxed and MOT'd, for up to 183 consecutive days/or 183 total days in any running 12 months. Any longer than that and it should be returned to the UK, or legally imported onto Spanish registration.


After any accident, it would be for you to prove to the satisfaction of the UK insurance company that you had complied with that Spanish legal provision (by showing proof of ferry crossing, or other proof of the vehicle travel outwards from the UK, within the prior 6 months)


A Spanish ITV certificate on a British registered vehicle is an utter irrelevance.
It is not an MOT test or certificate.

It means nothing whatsoever on a non-Spanish matriculated vehicle because it is not a requirement of the British vehicles "home country".

The Spanish ITV test only has legal validity for Spanish registered vehicles. It only tests things required within that test under Spanish law, at frequencies set out in Spanish law, for Spanish registered vehicles.

A current British MOT is what is legally required on a British registered vehicle

And MOT testing/certification is ONLY available from MOT testing stations in Britain.

If your British plated vehicle hasn't got the required current UK Road Fund Licence and UK MOT certificate, then it is illegal to use it on any roads, anywhere - whether in the UK or here.
You are liable to a very hefty fine, and to seizure of the vehicle if caught here; and following any accident, your insurers can do a legal thing called "repudiation of contract" because of your “fundamental breach of contract” when they check your vehicles paperwork and your licence. What that means is they will rip up all parts of the insurance contract other than the Third Party element, as though it had never existed; and refuse to pay you a penny for any damage to your vehicle or injuries you suffer..
They will do this because any insurance contract is what's known as a "contract of the utmost good faith" (ie, to have enforceable validity, you must have been completely honest with them in all material matters, and comply in practice with what you'd agreed when you signed to take out that insurance contract). You signed and agreed that you understood that you must only use the vehicle in accordance with the laws of Britain, and also of any other country that you visit with it).


You would then be liable to have to pay ALL the costs of accident damage to your vehicle, and injuries to yourself, which could amount to hundreds of thousands of euros or even millions of euros if you permanently disabled.

Additionally you would be liable to criminal prosecution for attempted fraud if you had submitted any insurance claim.
Additionally the Insurance Company, having had by law to make Third Party payouts (because under EU law once an insurer has accepted a vehicle insurance contract of risk they cannot repudiate the Third Party element of it even if the insured person then acts criminally)........can then back-sue you for all of the payment that they had to make to Third parties as a result of your driving that vehicle illaglly at the time whern you had the accident. That could be literally millions of euros.


Every time, for every minute, that you drive in an untaxed, un-MOT'd UK car/bike here, you are in fact gambling with and can potentially lose your house, all your possessions, all your savings, all your families savings, and then get a prison sentence too. In a Spanish prison. Have you any concept whatsoever of just what it is really like inside a Spanish prison?




Remember also, that if you've lied to a British Insurance Company in a contract you took out with them in Britain to insure your car in Britain about where your real home address is, and/or you've been using your car outside of the UK for more the (say) 30 days at a time that you're allowed to under that policy, and then you have an accident in it in Spain, their Insurers Investigators WILL find out, when you can't show the proof of ferry/Channel Tunnel travel records to show that you aren't trying to defraud them.
Once that fraud is discovered, they will of course not pay out above Third Party, and you may face prosecution in the British criminal courts too for criminal fraud.


You would then be left personally liable here in Spain to pay every euro of all the thousands/tens of thousands/ hundreds of thousands or even millions, for damage/injuries caused, in addition to any Spanish Criminal Court action against you.



That some people, who will assert loudly that they are intelligent adults, actually decide to deliberately take that sort of utterly bankrupting risk, and risk the financial ruination of their family, their children, day after day after day, for years, seems utter idiotic, selfish, lunatic, immature, thoughtless stupidity to me.

And that others, families and friends, will actually, of their own free will, get into those illegal British registered vehicles and actually allow themselves to be driven around by such criminal fraudsters, in the knowledge that there is no tax on the car, or no MOT, and/or the car has been here illegally for years, is frankly just as utterly dumb.





Road, vehicle and traffic laws ain't voluntary.
They aren't negotiable. And they don't go away if you ignore them.

And they ain't specific to Spain. There are exactly similar laws about vehicle legality, defrauding DVLA, and attempted insurance fraud in all other EU countries too.

And pretending ignorance it no excuse.

In law, if you're bright enough and mature enough to drive a one ton metal missile around on the roads, you're also deemed to be bright enough and mature enough to have informed yourself about the laws associated with doing that, in the country you are doing it in.



The "good old days" when Brits could merrily drive around, even pissed up, in an old non-taxed and non-MOT'd British registered car, with very little chance of getting caught, and very little chance of getting a truly massive fine, the car impounded and crushed, or a prison sentence as a result of crashing into/maiming or killing other people after acting criminally fraudulently, have well and truly gone.
The Spanish Police, especially Trafico, have got MUCH better at understanding such legal requirements in foreign vehicles in the past 2 years; they are much more hungry for fine/prosecution revenue; and are now arresting such criminal fraudsters, either in their checkpoint stops before those drivers hurt others, or afterwards when they investigate accidents.

Spanish police, and indeed the Police in all other European countries, now have instant online access to the DVLA and MID vehicle records for every British registered vehicle – which tells them immediately whether that vehicle has or does not have valid VED (road tax), valid MOT, and valid insurance.





Things get even better when you try to drive back to Blighty in your illegal UK car (rather than having it taken by car transporter). If you manage to get through Spain/France without getting stopped; you've then got to get it into Britain.

There has been a BIG change to automatic vehicle checking at UK borders since summer 2011.

Now every Ferry Company and the Chunnel operators too, have to send ahead to UK Border Agency staff a manifest of the registration numbers of all vehicles on their way across/under the channel.
The UK Border Agency computer then auto-searches the DVLA database, the UK “MID” insurance database, and MOT central records (now computerised too) and flags up any that ain't right.

The moment you then drive off the ferry onto British soil in your untaxed, un-MOT'd and fraudulently “SORN”ed vehicle, you now get flagged down, questioned, then arrested.
Your vehicle gets impounded...and subsequently crushed (for which you pay the costs), and you get charged with the various criminal offences that you've knowingly committed.






There may still be some people who, even after all of this, is still confused, mis-guided or even deliberately deluded into still thinking their British reg'd car is, whilst illegal in Britain without Road Fund Licence and UK MOT, somehow miraculously not illegal in Spain when driven here whilst lacking those same two, key legal requirements.



For them I list below the actual Spanish source law, which describes what Spanish, and foreign registered, vehicles need to comply with when drive in Spain.

(There are also a whole lot of subsidiary "regulacions" made under these two "enabling" Acts which go into more technical detail which you can also study if you have time to begin 30 years of legal training)
But these are the two key source laws on the subject:

"Real Decreto 711/2006, de 9 de junio, por el que se modifican determinados reales decretos relativos a la inspección técnica de vehículos y a la homologación de vehículos, sus partes y piezas y se modifica, así mismo, el Reglamento General de Vehículos, aprobado por Real Decreto 2822/1998, de 23 de diciembre."

Look them up, or get a properly-qualified Abogado to do so, if you still genuinely cannot grasp or refuse to accept the reality of what I have written above.

Now, no-one with an IQ in treble figures really believes, if they actually think about it for one nano-second, that having no Road Fund Licence and no MOT on a British registered car, and/or lying to DVLA by saying it is “SORN”ed at some invented UK address, somehow doesn't make the car illegal to use in Spain, even though they know instantly that such failings make it totally illegal and uninsured even in it's own home country.
They know that driving it in the UK would be a criminal offence. Yet still some people insist on committing the exact same criminal offences day after day here in Spain, and pretend that is is OK here.


Similarly, every adult knows when they tell the truth, and when they tell a deliberate lie to an insurance Company, whether in the UK or Spain, about where they are living, where the car is normally kept, and how long it really spends outside of it's home country.
Why on Earth do those people still think that such an Insurance Company will ever willingly pay out a penny on their behalf after they have a serious accident here if/when the Insurer discovers that they have deliberately lied, and thus attempted a criminal fraud against them?




But hey, people are free to ignore all of this, and instead accept what the guy in the bar says whilst he tries to offload onto you an old illegal British reg'd car with no Road Fund Licence or MOT, on a criminally fraudulent SORN certificate.


If he says “No road tax or mot on this motor? Nah, it don't matter over here guvnor.” then ask him to do just one thing before you buy his old banger......
Ask him to come with you to a Notary and put that assertion in writing for you; and also sign an attached legal indemnity for you, in front of that Notary, undertaking that he will pay all subsequent fines, pay all uninsured damages costs, all uninsured injury costs, and to replace the vehicle if impounded and crushed, and that he will also do any prison time in a Spanish or UK prison on your behalf if what he's trying to get you to swallow turns out to be total lies.

Good luck with getting him to do that....

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[Freespirit1]

I have no idea why so many people choose to still believe “the guy down the pub”, or the vehicle seller who is trying to offload the British plated car/bike onto you on something as serious and important as this, rather than acquainting themselves with the actual law.

The first BIG warning sign for you that they haven't got a clue what they are talking about is when they refer to a “UK plated” vehicle.
There is not such thing.
It is a “British plated” vehicle, under the British registration system, as Northern Ireland has it's own separate registration system

In order for a British registered vehicle to be legally used anywhere else across the EU, it must at all times be in compliance with all the legal requirements of its "home" country.
This legal rule applies equally to all other vehicles registered in the EU - thus it would apply if you were driving a Spanish registered vehicle in Britain.



Living here is NOT in fact some sort of jolly kiddies let's-pretend, fantasy game, where Brits (and anyone else) only need to abide by those Spanish laws that they want to apply to them, and can avoid criminal responsibility, court, and prison, by saying “ lalalalala” with their fingers in their ears.

Let us be perfectly clear on this. It is not difficult. To be used legally on Spanish roads, or any other roads outside of Britain, a British registered car/motorbike MUST have current British road fund licence (and thus NOT be criminally fraudulently “SORN”d at some fantasy British address: and it must have a current British MOT certificate (if of an age where an MOT certificate is needed).



I will repeat:
If in doubt, please read this bit slowly:- to be used legally on Spanish roads, or any other roads within or outside of Britain, a British registered car/motorbike MUST have current British road fund licence, and a current British MOT certificate (if of an age where an MOT certificate is needed).





Remember also, that you can only use a British registered vehicle in Spain, even when properly Taxed and MOT'd, for up to 183 consecutive days/or 183 total days in any running 12 months. Any longer than that and it should be returned to the UK, or legally imported onto Spanish registration.


After any accident, it would be for you to prove to the satisfaction of the UK insurance company that you had complied with that Spanish legal provision (by showing proof of ferry crossing, or other proof of the vehicle travel outwards from the UK, within the prior 6 months)


A Spanish ITV certificate on a British registered vehicle is an utter irrelevance.
It is not an MOT test or certificate.

It means nothing whatsoever on a non-Spanish matriculated vehicle because it is not a requirement of the British vehicles "home country".

The Spanish ITV test only has legal validity for Spanish registered vehicles. It only tests things required within that test under Spanish law, at frequencies set out in Spanish law, for Spanish registered vehicles.

A current British MOT is what is legally required on a British registered vehicle

And MOT testing/certification is ONLY available from MOT testing stations in Britain.

If your British plated vehicle hasn't got the required current UK Road Fund Licence and UK MOT certificate, then it is illegal to use it on any roads, anywhere - whether in the UK or here.
You are liable to a very hefty fine, and to seizure of the vehicle if caught here; and following any accident, your insurers can do a legal thing called "repudiation of contract" because of your “fundamental breach of contract” when they check your vehicles paperwork and your licence. What that means is they will rip up all parts of the insurance contract other than the Third Party element, as though it had never existed; and refuse to pay you a penny for any damage to your vehicle or injuries you suffer..
They will do this because any insurance contract is what's known as a "contract of the utmost good faith" (ie, to have enforceable validity, you must have been completely honest with them in all material matters, and comply in practice with what you'd agreed when you signed to take out that insurance contract). You signed and agreed that you understood that you must only use the vehicle in accordance with the laws of Britain, and also of any other country that you visit with it).


You would then be liable to have to pay ALL the costs of accident damage to your vehicle, and injuries to yourself, which could amount to hundreds of thousands of euros or even millions of euros if you permanently disabled.

Additionally you would be liable to criminal prosecution for attempted fraud if you had submitted any insurance claim.
Additionally the Insurance Company, having had by law to make Third Party payouts (because under EU law once an insurer has accepted a vehicle insurance contract of risk they cannot repudiate the Third Party element of it even if the insured person then acts criminally)........can then back-sue you for all of the payment that they had to make to Third parties as a result of your driving that vehicle illaglly at the time whern you had the accident. That could be literally millions of euros.


Every time, for every minute, that you drive in an untaxed, un-MOT'd UK car/bike here, you are in fact gambling with and can potentially lose your house, all your possessions, all your savings, all your families savings, and then get a prison sentence too. In a Spanish prison. Have you any concept whatsoever of just what it is really like inside a Spanish prison?




Remember also, that if you've lied to a British Insurance Company in a contract you took out with them in Britain to insure your car in Britain about where your real home address is, and/or you've been using your car outside of the UK for more the (say) 30 days at a time that you're allowed to under that policy, and then you have an accident in it in Spain, their Insurers Investigators WILL find out, when you can't show the proof of ferry/Channel Tunnel travel records to show that you aren't trying to defraud them.
Once that fraud is discovered, they will of course not pay out above Third Party, and you may face prosecution in the British criminal courts too for criminal fraud.


You would then be left personally liable here in Spain to pay every euro of all the thousands/tens of thousands/ hundreds of thousands or even millions, for damage/injuries caused, in addition to any Spanish Criminal Court action against you.



That some people, who will assert loudly that they are intelligent adults, actually decide to deliberately take that sort of utterly bankrupting risk, and risk the financial ruination of their family, their children, day after day after day, for years, seems utter idiotic, selfish, lunatic, immature, thoughtless stupidity to me.

And that others, families and friends, will actually, of their own free will, get into those illegal British registered vehicles and actually allow themselves to be driven around by such criminal fraudsters, in the knowledge that there is no tax on the car, or no MOT, and/or the car has been here illegally for years, is frankly just as utterly dumb.





Road, vehicle and traffic laws ain't voluntary.
They aren't negotiable. And they don't go away if you ignore them.

And they ain't specific to Spain. There are exactly similar laws about vehicle legality, defrauding DVLA, and attempted insurance fraud in all other EU countries too.

And pretending ignorance it no excuse.

In law, if you're bright enough and mature enough to drive a one ton metal missile around on the roads, you're also deemed to be bright enough and mature enough to have informed yourself about the laws associated with doing that, in the country you are doing it in.



The "good old days" when Brits could merrily drive around, even pissed up, in an old non-taxed and non-MOT'd British registered car, with very little chance of getting caught, and very little chance of getting a truly massive fine, the car impounded and crushed, or a prison sentence as a result of crashing into/maiming or killing other people after acting criminally fraudulently, have well and truly gone.
The Spanish Police, especially Trafico, have got MUCH better at understanding such legal requirements in foreign vehicles in the past 2 years; they are much more hungry for fine/prosecution revenue; and are now arresting such criminal fraudsters, either in their checkpoint stops before those drivers hurt others, or afterwards when they investigate accidents.

Spanish police, and indeed the Police in all other European countries, now have instant online access to the DVLA and MID vehicle records for every British registered vehicle – which tells them immediately whether that vehicle has or does not have valid VED (road tax), valid MOT, and valid insurance.





Things get even better when you try to drive back to Blighty in your illegal UK car (rather than having it taken by car transporter). If you manage to get through Spain/France without getting stopped; you've then got to get it into Britain.

There has been a BIG change to automatic vehicle checking at UK borders since summer 2011.

Now every Ferry Company and the Chunnel operators too, have to send ahead to UK Border Agency staff a manifest of the registration numbers of all vehicles on their way across/under the channel.
The UK Border Agency computer then auto-searches the DVLA database, the UK “MID” insurance database, and MOT central records (now computerised too) and flags up any that ain't right.

The moment you then drive off the ferry onto British soil in your untaxed, un-MOT'd and fraudulently “SORN”ed vehicle, you now get flagged down, questioned, then arrested.
Your vehicle gets impounded...and subsequently crushed (for which you pay the costs), and you get charged with the various criminal offences that you've knowingly committed.






There may still be some people who, even after all of this, is still confused, mis-guided or even deliberately deluded into still thinking their British reg'd car is, whilst illegal in Britain without Road Fund Licence and UK MOT, somehow miraculously not illegal in Spain when driven here whilst lacking those same two, key legal requirements.



For them I list below the actual Spanish source law, which describes what Spanish, and foreign registered, vehicles need to comply with when drive in Spain.

(There are also a whole lot of subsidiary "regulacions" made under these two "enabling" Acts which go into more technical detail which you can also study if you have time to begin 30 years of legal training)
But these are the two key source laws on the subject:

"Real Decreto 711/2006, de 9 de junio, por el que se modifican determinados reales decretos relativos a la inspección técnica de vehículos y a la homologación de vehículos, sus partes y piezas y se modifica, así mismo, el Reglamento General de Vehículos, aprobado por Real Decreto 2822/1998, de 23 de diciembre."

Look them up, or get a properly-qualified Abogado to do so, if you still genuinely cannot grasp or refuse to accept the reality of what I have written above.

Now, no-one with an IQ in treble figures really believes, if they actually think about it for one nano-second, that having no Road Fund Licence and no MOT on a British registered car, and/or lying to DVLA by saying it is “SORN”ed at some invented UK address, somehow doesn't make the car illegal to use in Spain, even though they know instantly that such failings make it totally illegal and uninsured even in it's own home country.
They know that driving it in the UK would be a criminal offence. Yet still some people insist on committing the exact same criminal offences day after day here in Spain, and pretend that is is OK here.


Similarly, every adult knows when they tell the truth, and when they tell a deliberate lie to an insurance Company, whether in the UK or Spain, about where they are living, where the car is normally kept, and how long it really spends outside of it's home country.
Why on Earth do those people still think that such an Insurance Company will ever willingly pay out a penny on their behalf after they have a serious accident here if/when the Insurer discovers that they have deliberately lied, and thus attempted a criminal fraud against them?




But hey, people are free to ignore all of this, and instead accept what the guy in the bar says whilst he tries to offload onto you an old illegal British reg'd car with no Road Fund Licence or MOT, on a criminally fraudulent SORN certificate.


If he says “No road tax or mot on this motor? Nah, it don't matter over here guvnor.” then ask him to do just one thing before you buy his old banger......
Ask him to come with you to a Notary and put that assertion in writing for you; and also sign an attached legal indemnity for you, in front of that Notary, undertaking that he will pay all subsequent fines, pay all uninsured damages costs, all uninsured injury costs, and to replace the vehicle if impounded and crushed, and that he will also do any prison time in a Spanish or UK prison on your behalf if what he's trying to get you to swallow turns out to be total lies.

Good luck with getting him to do that....

Wow!! - what an informative and thought provoking post - particularly for the ex-pats and a reminder for us all to get it RIGHT!! And that is what this thread is all about I hope - many thanks The Nomad

 

[Yorick]

Well - if your wife Penny stays with you 90 consecutive days or longer ( a big ask- granted ) and does not return to another country outside of Spain then she it seems will automatically be viewed by the law as a resident of Spain and therefore they could impound the British Reg vehicle if she drives it and fine her! @gus-lopez maybe will confirm?

Also if she resets the 90 day rule by leaving Spanish territory before 90 days BUT exceeds 183 cumulative days within a 12 month period on Spanish territory then again she will automatically be regarded by Spanish law to be a resident of Spain and therefore would again not be able to drive a British Reg vehicle @gus-lopez to confirm? My guess is that she probably does exceed the 183 day cumulative rule on a regular annual basis!

My question is : what determines the start date and end date of the 12 month period please?

My missus flies to UK every 4 weeks to see her folks. So always has flight tickets to show.

 

[Freespirit1]

My missus flies to UK every 4 weeks to see her folks. So always has flight tickets to show.

How about the 183 days cumulative work out then?

 

[Speve]

After all that I would still like to know how the Spanish authorities would know when we crossed into Spain as there are no border checks and the same throughout schengen countries so it would be difficult for them to prove date of entry?

 

[jumartoo]

so it would be difficult for them to prove date of entry?

They don't have to prove anything, you do!

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