Propane Calor Gas Refils?

[StitchUp]

We use two 6Kg (Orange) Calor gas bottles in our van. To refill locally costs £37, that is swap empty for full.

I notice on eBay there are these:

I'm unsure if it's easy to find refil stations - do you do it yourself - I'm told it's a lot cheaper or is it a no go?

The eBay fitting is circa £30

Any advice/comments?

Thanks

 

[sweetie]

Refilled by qualified people and proper equipment not chancers Gaslow gasit or Safefill is the way to go all have 80% shut off valve.

 

[Northernraider]

And they are all vented Tam.............as per construction regs for LPG cylinder storage in self contained MHs, whether or not you have observed it for yourself.

Can we not just accept that many of the regulation/legislation, is there for the general good and safety of the public in general, be they suppliers, or end users?

Cheers,

Jock.

As I said earlier on this thread jock I haven't personally used one of these adapters I've always had gasit or gaslow cylinders. I have however seen many folk using them. Have yet to see one actually being filled inside the van , always had cylinders removed and refilled when they are outside.

I also stated I witnessed a fuel station attendant filling 2 11kg bottles for someone using one of those adapters.


I just object to how there's a lot of folk on here calling people idiots etc because they decide they don't want to do something themselves but those people have been doing it safely for years.

The thread is now 6 pages long and it's the same folk doing the name calling etc.

Neither side will change the others opinion.

But really none of the gas systems in any motorhomes are 100% safe there's always the chance of leaks etc whatever cylinders you have fitted.

 

[Northernraider]

But by qualified people and proper equipment not chancers

Yeah I've heard mechanics giving that answer too.


Many of which I'd not trust to put water in my washer bottle.

 

[TrudeandDall]

I did and without naming the people I know at least 2 folk on this forum with factory pvc conversions running refillable bottles and those bottles are inside a cupboard inside the back doors .

What's that got to do with refilling calor bottles? But on your statement you are right as that is exactly where my gaslow bottles in my German conversion van are designed to be kept and are kept. There are 2 large drop outs which in the event of a leak at the bottle or regulator any escaping gas, by virtue of being heavier than air, will fall out via the drop outs.
My gaslow bottles are mechanically designed and approved in the UK and wider EU to be refilled and the internal mechanical system prevents overfill of the bottles. So a safe system .......

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[JockandRita]

As I said earlier on this thread jock I haven't personally used one of these adapters I've always had gasit or gaslow cylinders. I have however seen many folk using them. Have yet to see one actually being filled inside the van , always had cylinders removed and refilled when they are outside.

I also stated I witnessed a fuel station attendant filling 2 11kg bottles for someone using one of those adapters.


I just object to how there's a lot of folk on here calling people idiots etc because they decide they don't want to do something themselves but those people have been doing it safely for years.

The thread is now 6 pages long and it's the same folk doing the name calling etc.

Neither side will change the others opinion.

But really none of the gas systems in any motorhomes are 100% safe there's always the chance of leaks etc whatever cylinders you have fitted.

I totally get and appreciate everything you say Tam. I too have never seen anyone refilling "non specific" refillable cylinders with one of those adaptors, and I hope I never do TBH.
As much as I like to save a few quid where I can, I simply can't condone the use of, nor bring myself to utilise one of these adapters, as even with my knowledge and appreciation of the risks involved, I'd never forgive myself if I ever slipped up and "got it wrong" which is so easy to do. None of us are infallible.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[stevewagner]

To those that believe no explanation is necessary, to those that don't believe no explanation will do!

 

[Northernraider]

What's that got to do with refilling calor bottles? But on your statement you are right as that is exactly where my gaslow bottles in my German conversion van are designed to be kept and are kept. There are 2 large drop outs which in the event of a leak at the bottle or regulator any escaping gas, by virtue of being heavier than air, will fall out via the drop outs.
My gaslow bottles are mechanically designed and approved in the UK and wider EU to be refilled and the internal mechanical system prevents overfill of the bottles. So a safe system .......

Right

So your cabinet in the van is bombproof is it?

It really isn't rocket science . If the bottle being filled using one of these adapters is filled outside of the vehicle and is only filled to maximise of 80% then it is no more dangerous than your or indeed my gaslow cylinders.

But if you believe that your system is 100% safe you are deluded as there are pipes and hoses between those cylinders and appliances the same as in any van .

 

[Ashy]

Indeed Ashy they are refillable : But not by the public, only by Calor - who have competent people, the safe mechanical filling systems and a safe process to do so.
I'm not the calor police, I'm just sick of people trying to justify something that in the some circumstances is dangerous and in all circumstances illigal.
It's people filling calor bottles who have already stopped many LPG sellers from allowing the filling of any bottles, including "safefill" and "gaslow direct fill".

I got a bite, yippee

 

[Outofthefire]

I've used them to fill small bottles from larger bottles, I was a welder fabricator for years and when you are happy to open the valve and mix propane with oxygen and set fire to it then heat metal up to the point it melts then spray more oxygen on it to blow the molten metal away, carefully joining two bottles together opening the valves pouring out the gas (yes pouring it's liquid) then closing the valves and disconnecting the connector doesn't seem so scary. Yes technically a gas bottle has the capability of being a bomb as some have suggested, but that capability is still there when it's hooked up to the van.

Would I use one at a filling station yes if it was legal it literally is exactly the same as filling an lpg car apart from the manually opening and closing the valve, the gas is safely travelling through a sealed brass tube. Unlike when you pump petrol into a car with all that explosive vapour coming out of the filler tube as your doing it.

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[Petroleumblownapart]

We use two 6Kg (Orange) Calor gas bottles in our van. To refill locally costs £37, that is swap empty for full.

I notice on eBay there are these:
View attachment 783640

I'm unsure if it's easy to find refil stations - do you do it yourself - I'm told it's a lot cheaper or is it a no go?

The eBay fitting is circa £30

Any advice/comments?

Thanks

As trained LPG engineer I can categorically say DO NOT DO THIS DANGEROUS AND STUPID THING. The cylinder should never be more than 80% full and you can exceed that easily with a pump. If the temperature rises above that at which it was when you guessed at 80% you risk either a blow off through the propane cylinder safety valve of either liquid gas or vapour and if the safety should valve fail to operate, a massive fireball. It's not worth the risk.... Vapourised propane is 11 times more explosive than TNT.
A Taxi filled a tank without a safety valve beyond the 80% by not opening the Ullage Valve, parked up for lunch in the sun and destroyed a block of flats with the ensuing . Like all accidents several things that weren't expected all came together at once... Are you always lucky or just so far?

 

[Outofthefire]

The cylinder should never be more than 80% full and you can exceed that easily with a pump. I

How do they stop lpg tanks on vehicles being filled more than 80% with the forecourt pump?

 

[Basildog]

Surely propane cylinders are "indoors" on a caravan or motorhome.

No they are in a sealed gas locker vented to outside air .
Sometimes difficult to get people to understand this .

 

[Basildog]

My statement might make a few people check their own. I suspect that mine being out of date might be the tip of a very large iceberg. What are the likely problems caused by cylinder age? I can understand that portable cylinders will suffer from a build-up of transport damage and are presumably checked when being refilled. Do the valves/shut off floats on "tank" cylinders deteriorate? How are out-of-date cylinder tanks tested? I've always examined connections & tested for leaks during my MoT prep (just a convenient memory jogger) and have seen no issues. The cylinders are visually undamaged and not corroded.

Basically there isn’t any company in the U.K. that will test gas cylinders / tanks privately owned in small volumes so we have a policy of telling customers that cylinders / tanks have effectively a 10 year lifespan.
The PRV manufacturers also state that it needs replacing at 10 years .

 

[Minxy]

The vw campers gas bottles are inside the van bottom of wardrobe , and I'm certain there are other pvc conversions the same . Gas bottle in cupboard inside back doors . I've seen a few in photos

Unless they have an underslung tank they will all be inside in a purpose designed cupboard with seals to prevent any escaping gas leaking into the inner and have drop vents in the base to the outside. Our 3 PVCs were like that as was the ambulance conversion I did.

I did and without naming the people I know at least 2 folk on this forum with factory pvc conversions running refillable bottles and those bottles are inside a cupboard inside the back doors .

No need to worry as they are legal as they'll be as I've described above.

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[chrisandbev]

hi i have just changed van and so now have two spare 6kg gaslow bottles available to sell if you want and are near Devon

chris

 

[Northernraider]

Unless they have an underslung tank they will all be inside in a purpose designed cupboard with seals to prevent any escaping gas leaking into the inner and have drop vents in the base to the outside. Our 3 PVCs were like that as was the ambulance conversion I did.


No need to worry as they are legal as they'll be as I've described above.

Yes and a normal gas bottle that's been filled is normally in the same cupboard. I've never seen anyone with one of these adapters fill the bottle inside the van . They remove the bottle ,fill it then put it back in the same cupboard as the people with the refillable bottles.


If the bottle is completely empty when they fill it I really don't see how it's any less safe. The lpg pumps all have a dead man button for filling . If you release the button it stops and it can't be restarted unless the attendant resets it . So as long as the person does their calculations correct it's fairly easy to put the right amount of gas in to the cylinder.

Unlike the refillable bottles the valve has to be open to fill a standard bottle so if its open and no gas is coming out then the bottle is empty. So of you've an 11kg bottle and you put in 17 litres then you're below 80%



P.s I can categorically guarantee the vw California camper does not have a sealed gas locker . The gas bottle sits in a recess in the fresh water tank under the wardrobe. There's no vent and there's no sealed cupboard. I changed the bottle on Jackie's 2017 vw California several times over the last few years . OK it was a butane bottle not propane but its still gas .

Also the "sealed " cupboards in other vans I've seen with refillable bottles has been a wooden cupboard with a bit silicone around the edges.

Not that it really matters as like I said everytime I've seen someone filling a standard bottle they've done it outside the van as it needs to be disconnected to fill it.

 

[Clive Beeza]

I've used them to fill small bottles from larger bottles, I was a welder fabricator for years and when you are happy to open the valve and mix propane with oxygen and set fire to it then heat metal up to the point it melts then spray more oxygen on it to blow the molten metal away, carefully joining two bottles together opening the valves pouring out the gas (yes pouring it's liquid) then closing the valves and disconnecting the connector doesn't seem so scary. Yes technically a gas bottle has the capability of being a bomb as some have suggested, but that capability is still there when it's hooked up to the van.

Would I use one at a filling station yes if it was legal it literally is exactly the same as filling an lpg car apart from the manually opening and closing the valve, the gas is safely travelling through a sealed brass tube. Unlike when you pump petrol into a car with all that explosive vapour coming out of the filler tube as your doing it.

 

[Mclouis700]

ebay should be made to withdraw these illegal adaptors . I have Gaslow fitted and find no problem getting refilled just the difference in price/ltre £0.99 BP stations nationally or local to me in Telford £0.76ltre. Safety First is my priority.

 

[Northernraider]

ebay should be made to withdraw these illegal adaptors . I have Gaslow fitted and find no problem getting refilled just the difference in price/ltre £0.99 BP stations nationally or local to me in Telford £0.76ltre. Safety First is my priority.

That's the point who said they are illegal to sell?

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[stevewagner]

Yes and a normal gas bottle that's been filled is normally in the same cupboard. I've never seen anyone with one of these adapters fill the bottle inside the van . They remove the bottle ,fill it then put it back in the same cupboard as the people with the refillable bottles.


If the bottle is completely empty when they fill it I really don't see how it's any less safe. The lpg pumps all have a dead man button for filling . If you release the button it stops and it can't be restarted unless the attendant resets it . So as long as the person does their calculations correct it's fairly easy to put the right amount of gas in to the cylinder.

Unlike the refillable bottles the valve has to be open to fill a standard bottle so if its open and no gas is coming out then the bottle is empty. So of you've an 11kg bottle and you put in 17 litres then you're below 80%



P.s I can categorically guarantee the vw California camper does not have a sealed gas locker . The gas bottle sits in a recess in the fresh water tank under the wardrobe. There's no vent and there's no sealed cupboard. I changed the bottle on Jackie's 2017 vw California several times over the last few years . OK it was a butane bottle not propane but its still gas .

Also the "sealed " cupboards in other vans I've seen with refillable bottles has been a wooden cupboard with a bit silicone around the edges.

Not that it really matters as like I said everytime I've seen someone filling a standard bottle they've done it outside the van as it needs to be disconnected to fill it.

Every lpg pump I’ve used allows you to press and release the button and still work

 

[Northernraider]

Every lpg pump I’ve used allows you to press and release the button and still work

Interesting as every single pump I've used in 26 countries if you press the button and start it then release the button it will not start again till the attendant resets it. It won't pump unless your hand is on the button.

It's a dead man button for a reason.
It also won't dispense the gas if not a tight connection



I've had to go in to morrisons on at least 2 occasions to have it reset as my hand slipped

 

[Clive Beeza]

That's the point who said they are illegal to sell?

Think the suggestion is that they should be illegal to sell
I guarantee they do not have a B S stamp on them
otherwise they would be for sale at LPG stations

 

[Albacore]

I did and without naming the people I know at least 2 folk on this forum with factory pvc conversions running refillable bottles and those bottles are inside a cupboard inside the back doors .

Yes I have a factory built German PVC and my gas locker is inside the rear doors. However the gas locker is vented to the outside beneath the bottles.

 

[Northernraider]

Yes I have a factory built German PVC and my gas locker is inside the rear doors. However the gas locker is vented to the outside beneath the bottles.

Yes I think all have drop vents except the vw California definitely doesn't.

But they aren't a super duper strong locker , just a cupboard with a bit of sealer round the joins.

Point I was making was it's the same lockers whether you have refillable bottles or standard bottles. So it's relatively pointless in the argument of whether these bottle attachments are safe or not.

The only difference between them really is they don't automatically turn off at 80% . It's down to the person filling them knowing the right amount. And as the pump displays how many litres is being dispensed it isn't that difficult to release the button at the right amount.

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[Lenny HB]

Not in every van

Vw campers the gas bottle Is inside the van

Same with a lot of vans providing the locker is sealed to the rest of the van and has drop vents it's not a problem.
Our last Hymer A Class and our present one in both the gas locker is internal, accessed via a door in the garage.

 

[VXman]

No reason why the service should be ended, just train the staff!

Morrisons Kings Lynn might ask to see your cylinder, Morrisons Wisbech definitely won’t! But then, there is only ever one on the tills. My 1st safefill fill up was at Wisbech, I asked for assistance to make sure I was doing it ok, she said “no chance, 1. I’m on my own , 2. I’ve not been trained”

Do Morrisons not accept safe/legal alternatives - i.e Gaslow ?

 

[VXman]

£600, stainless hoses and they are full.

hmm...not a great deal. They are £189 each brand new. External filling kit/hose is £76. I never understand why people use two. Do you have two petrol tanks in your car?

 

[Two on Tour]

I never understand why people use two. Do you have two petrol tanks in your car?

My Jag did.

 

[VXman]

And they are all vented Tam.............as per construction regs for LPG cylinder storage in self contained MHs, whether or not you have observed it for yourself.

By the way, this only protects against leakage from the bottle to the hose and from the hose to the regulator. Beyond that there will be much pipeing inside the van to link to ovens, hobs, water and van heaters. All this is a potential risk indoors anyway. Also, when cooking with hob/oven a nearby window needs to be open to allow venting of Carbon dioxide ,methane and nitrous oxide

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[VXman]

My Jag did.

Because it could only manage 10mpg.