Propane Calor Gas Refils?

[StitchUp]

We use two 6Kg (Orange) Calor gas bottles in our van. To refill locally costs £37, that is swap empty for full.

I notice on eBay there are these:

I'm unsure if it's easy to find refil stations - do you do it yourself - I'm told it's a lot cheaper or is it a no go?

The eBay fitting is circa £30

Any advice/comments?

Thanks

 

[Basildog]

hmm...not a great deal. They are £189 each brand new. External filling kit/hose is £76. I never understand why people use two. Do you have two petrol tanks in your car?

We use an 11 kg in around 3 days in winter so even 2 is nowhere near enough capacity

 

[VXman]

We use an 11 kg in around 3 days in winter so even 2 is nowhere near enough capacity

I think some people may need that kind of capacity - full timers, those who do longer winter trips, however the majority don't and there seems to be an automatic reccomendation for 2 bottles plus auto changer over. A very expensive systems that the majority probably wont require. There are inventive alternatives. I carry a spare 6kg calor which I have only used for 1 day in 2 years. I go aways for 2 month trips quite often too.

 

[gus-lopez]

In sealed to the van but floor vented lockers

Plenty of vans with spare bottles loose in garages I saw yesterday in Canterbury p&r

No they are in a sealed gas locker vented to outside air .
Sometimes difficult to get people to understand this .

As above .one bloke had 2 propane ,one of which he had connected to his outside barbecue.
My mate used to carry a 12,5 repsol ,a12,5 cepsa & an 18kg calor.why I've no idea as he had refillable?

hi i have just changed van and so now have two spare 6kg gaslow bottles available to sell if you want and are near Devon

chris

I'd have snapped them up when I was down there 3 weeks back.Too late now.

ebay should be made to withdraw these illegal adaptors .

&the tracker jamming tools, the Tibbes 'master keys'. Etc etc.The list of stuff allowed for sale for criminal use is far longer than you think.

 

[Roger J Holman]

In my humble opinion, those who advocate the filling of 'non-refillable' gas bottles should all be named and shamed.
Not only is the private filling of gas bottles ILLEGAL, that means BREAKING THE LAW, it clearly demonstrates a total lack of concern for their fellow men, and women. The fact that they have done it for years, and got away with it, is immaterial. The recent petrol station conflagration clearly demonstrates that accidents can, and will happen. Those people who advocate this practice must be taught that, in the event of a gas explosion, caused by their incompetence and utter selfishness, THEIR insurance will be invalid. I do not care about them, they will be the architects of their own downfall, but the problem will be that THEIR insurance, being invalidated due to THEIR arrogance, and ignorance, will not cover the loss and distress caused to OTHERS.
Whilst it may, or may not, br true that a major petrol supplier MAY carry their own insurance, this is by no means certain, and a number of perfectly innocent people may be seriously affected, maimed, or killed by the stupidity of one person.
As one surveyor say to me once "You cannot insure against stupidity; but you can insure against the consequences of stupidity."

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[gus-lopez]

but the problem will be that THEIR insurance, being invalidated due to THEIR arrogance, and ignorance, will not cover the loss and distress caused to OTHERS.

More nonsense. Insurance is legally liable for all 3rd party claims regardless of what the holder does. It always has been. It is only any claim the holder might make that is denied. The insurance company will usually claim off the wrong doer and bankrupt them.

 

[steve69]

Something that no-one has mentioned on here is that 6kg calor gas bottles appear to have become as rare as hen's teeth. When my last bottle ran out, I contacted many nearby outlets for these and the story was the same. They can't get hold of any either!
What has happened to them all?, I don't know.
All I know is I need propane and if a perfectly experienced, competent person can refill one for me, then so be it.

 

[TrudeandDall]

Yes I think all have drop vents except the vw California definitely doesn't.

But they aren't a super duper strong locker , just a cupboard with a bit of sealer round the joins.

Point I was making was it's the same lockers whether you have refillable bottles or standard bottles. So it's relatively pointless in the argument of whether these bottle attachments are safe or not.

The only difference between them really is they don't automatically turn off at 80% . It's down to the person filling them knowing the right amount. And as the pump displays how many litres is being dispensed it isn't that difficult to release the button at the right amount.

And that is exactly the danger point of filling a calor bottle ! Being OVERFILLED ABOVE THE 80% SAFETY LEVEL. It requires an integral mechanism or someone who knows exactly what they are doing to keep them at or below 80%, which a lot of funsters are capable of doing. However eBay does not just sell these adapters to competent funsters, there are no doubt other people buying them who are not as clued up. Ask the Health and Safety executive about any process that relies on a "human in the loop" verses a mechanical system.... And that is why, no matter what many people on this forum think, that it is illegal for the public to refill the likes of a calor cylinder.
There are enough quotes of the dangers of an OVERFILLED LPG vessel on this thread.

 

[TrudeandDall]

Something that no-one has mentioned on here is that 6kg calor gas bottles appear to have become as rare as hen's teeth. When my last bottle ran out, I contacted many nearby outlets for these and the story was the same. They can't get hold of any either!
What has happened to them all?, I don't know.
All I know is I need propane and if a perfectly experienced, competent person can refill one for me, then so be it.

They are rare because of the intended withdrawal of the 3.9kg cylinders and that people have exchanged the small ones for 6kg. Which is exactly what Calor asked people to do. Poor forward planning by Calor

 

[Jim]

Not only is the private filling of gas bottles ILLEGAL, that means BREAKING THE LAW,

What law is that? I know it's against Calor's Terms and Conditions, but its often reported as being "illegal". I'm writing an article now about gas in the UK. Can you point me to the relevant law that is broken as I've not found it. Thanks

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[Bobby dazzler]

I've used them to fill small bottles from larger bottles, I was a welder fabricator for years and when you are happy to open the valve and mix propane with oxygen and set fire to it then heat metal up to the point it melts then spray more oxygen on it to blow the molten metal away, carefully joining two bottles together opening the valves pouring out the gas (yes pouring it's liquid) then closing the valves and disconnecting the connector doesn't seem so scary. Yes technically a gas bottle has the capability of being a bomb as some have suggested, but that capability is still there when it's hooked up to the van.

Would I use one at a filling station yes if it was legal it literally is exactly the same as filling an lpg car apart from the manually opening and closing the valve, the gas is safely travelling through a sealed brass tube. Unlike when you pump petrol into a car with all that explosive vapour coming out of the filler tube as your doing it.

I believe the fumes at the petrol pump get drawn back down to the storage tanks

 

[JockandRita]

We use an 11 kg in around 3 days in winter so even 2 is nowhere near enough capacity

Our consumption is very similar in winter, with the Alde heating on 24/7, serving 12 x radiators, so for us it has to be 2 x 11s rather than just the 1 x.
Even in Spain over winter, we can get through a local 12Kg Propano in 5 x days.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[TrudeandDall]

What law is that? I know it's against Calor's Terms and Conditions, but its often reported as being "illegal". I'm writing an article now about gas in the UK. Can you point me to the relevant law that is broken as I've not found it. Thanks

Jim I think you will find that it is in T and C of Calor as they are duty bound under UK health and safety law as the owners of the cylinders and also every LPG supplier is potentially filling them and part of their operation. So start with the Health and Safety at Work Etc Act 1974. And for a specific law look at the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002. Which without going into every detail immediately brings up reference to regulation of "Gases that are under pressure (eg gas in a cylinder) may present a risk of explosion if not correctly handled in the workplace".
And to save me answering the prospect of people saying that "their camper is not a workplace" - the filling takes place within a workplace belonging to the LPG supplier and it is the filling that is illigal.

 

[TrudeandDall]

What law is that? I know it's against Calor's Terms and Conditions, but its often reported as being "illegal". I'm writing an article now about gas in the UK. Can you point me to the relevant law that is broken as I've not found it. Thanks

Jim I think you will find that it is in T and C of Calor as they are duty bound under UK health and safety law as the owners of the cylinders and also every LPG supplier is potentially filling them and part of their operation. So start with the Health and Safety at Work Etc Act 1974. And for a specific law look at the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002. Which without going into every detail immediately brings up reference to regulation of "Gases that are under pressure (eg gas in a cylinder) may present a risk of explosion if not correctly handled in the workplace".
And to save me answering the prospect of people saying that "their camper is not a workplace" - the filling takes place within a workplace belonging to the LPG supplier and it is the filling that is illigal.

 

[gus-lopez]

Something that no-one has mentioned on here is that 6kg calor gas bottles appear to have become as rare as hen's teeth. When my last bottle ran out, I contacted many nearby outlets for these and the story was the same.

I have had no problem obtaining refills near Brighton? In addition they also supplied me with a completely new 6kg as a spare.

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[TonyEmm]

Do Morrisons not accept safe/legal alternatives - i.e Gaslow ?

I can’t answer that! Where do Gaslow users get their cylinders refilled?

 

[TrudeandDall]

I believe the fumes at the petrol pump get drawn back down to the storage tanks

Only if the filling station is equipped with stage 2 vapour recovery. Stage 1 was implemented years ago to stop vapour being released during a tanker delivery, the vapours return to the tanker via a closed loop. Stage 2 was not fully introduced as it is not easy to facilitate the pump gun.

 

[Jim]

I cannot find any prosecutions, nor anything about specifically what law is broken when refilling a Calor Bottle. I've seen court cases where re-fillers were taken to court, but that was for breaches of T&Cs and ignoring cease and desist orders. If they had broken a law, surely Calor could have saved themselves the court fees and let the CPS do it for them.

Calor of course like to tell everyone it's illegal, but is it? So while I can happily inform readers of my article of the dangers and why they should not do it. (I've never done it it and would not condone it) I'll not be saying it's illegal because as far as I can ascertain it isn't. If it is, I'm sure a funster will be able to point me to the law.

 

[Ernesto]

I cannot find any prosecutions, nor anything about specifically what law is broken when refilling a Calor Bottle. I've seen court cases where re-fillers were taken to court, but that was for breaches of T&Cs and ignoring cease and desist orders. If they had broken a law, surely Calor could have saved themselves the court fees and let the CPS do it for them.

Calor of course like to tell everyone it's illegal, but is it? So while I can happily inform readers of my article of the dangers and why they should not do it. (I've never done it it and would not condone it) I'll not be saying it's illegal because as far as I can ascertain it isn't. If it is, I'm sure a funster will be able to point me to the law.

I ain’t no lawyer but is it possibly a case of English common law i.e. everything is legal unless specifically proscribed. So there isn’t a law on the statute books that says “thou shalt not refill thyne calor bottle…” but if you do and something bad happens, you will be guilty of breaching a raft of safety legislation and will be sued to the end of the earth and back by everyone affected ?

The issue isn’t so much whether it’s legal or not - speeding is illegal but it happens a lot. The issue is whether the refillers on here are putting other peoples lives and property at significant risk (or not)

 

[Bobby dazzler]

I suppose at the end of the day it's like me climbing on the roof of my House and walking along the ridge tiles
That's legal isn't it but is it wise probably not i suspect

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[Ernesto]

I suppose at the end of the day it's like me climbing on the roof of my House and walking along the ridge tiles
That's legal isn't it but is it wise probably not i suspect

Except the only person you’ll kill or injure is yourself. I think a lot of the friction in this thread is the potential impact on other people and their possessions, if the worst happens.

 

[Pausim]

I agree that legality is less important than safety in this matter.

Legality is not confined to criminal law where a specific law or regulation may have been broken. Civil law can be broken too and I suspect this is the case with Calor and Flogas bottles. They are owned by the supplier and the first bottle is only handed over on the signing of a legally binding agreement, which doubtless applies to all subsequent exchange bottles too. There may well be other potential breaches such as an implied duty of care and broad responsibilities under health and safety laws. I have long since lost my Calor hire agreement but I recall a lot of small print and rules, which of course I read carefully (not).

 

[meanders]

Jim I suggest contacting Calor direct. They will (should) know the relevant legislation. Hopefully they would welcome your input and concern. If they come forward with the relevant regulation/legislation, you will be helping the very many of us who have posted in this thread.

 

[fat haggis]

I worked for air products for a bit after I left the military. I would fill lpg bottles with basic fast connect hardware. It was done on weight the gas would stop filling once the bottles tare weight was taken and how meany kilos of lpg you wanted to put in. Simple fast and easy. Now filling yourself on a ordinary log bottle is dangerous as it will overfill

 

[Jim]

I ain’t no lawyer but is it possibly a case of English common law i.e. everything is legal unless specifically proscribed.

I agree, but for something to be illegal as Calor claim, a law has to exist.

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[Stoosal]

I cannot find any prosecutions, nor anything about specifically what law is broken when refilling a Calor Bottle. I've seen court cases where re-fillers were taken to court, but that was for breaches of T&Cs and ignoring cease and desist orders. If they had broken a law, surely Calor could have saved themselves the court fees and let the CPS do it for them.

Calor of course like to tell everyone it's illegal, but is it? So while I can happily inform readers of my article of the dangers and why they should not do it. (I've never done it it and would not condone it) I'll not be saying it's illegal because as far as I can ascertain it isn't. If it is, I'm sure a funster will be able to point me to the law.

As well as the civil type laws it may be that there is other legislation which may come into effect dependant on the circumstances. Although the law may not specifically state what the criminal act is the circumstances would still invoke the court action. For example, where a Calor cylinder was being filled incorrectly by a person who should have known to fill it in such a manner held recognised risks and the resultant action (explosion/fire) led to death/injury/significant financial loss etc then criminal action may result eg manslaughter, reckless conduct etc etc.

 

[Jim]

As well as the civil type laws it may be that there is other legislation which may come into effect dependant on the circumstances. Although the law may not specifically state what the criminal act is the circumstances would still invoke the court action. For example, where a Calor cylinder was being filled incorrectly by a person who should have known to fill it in such a manner held recognised risks and the resultant action (explosion/fire) led to death/injury/significant financial loss etc then criminal action may result eg manslaughter, reckless conduct etc etc.

Yes, of course. The same as if a bonfire got out of hand and burned a neighbour's house down or your dog attacked someone. You could be sued for negligence. But dogs and bonfires are not illegal. And as far as I can find out, neither is filling Calor bottles.

 

[Ernesto]

Yes, of course. The same as if a bonfire got out of hand and burned a neighbour's house down or your dog attacked someone. You could be sued for negligence. But dogs and bonfires are not illegal. And as far as I can find out, neither is filling Calor bottles.

I agree … it would be an impossible law to write. I dont think it’s illegal … but if it all went wrong, prosecution might follow.
There was that rugby club a few years back that lit a bonfire next to the M5 and caused a massive pile up on the M5 in the smoke - 7 died and 51 injured. Bonfire organiser was charged with manslaughter but was acquitted on grounds that it was foggy that night.

 

[Boldly]

So is the filling of calor bottles by whoever more likely to cause injury to someone else than the risk of transmitting foot and mouth or other disease by the illegal transport of meat. Are there any statistics available for either? Who decides which rules are ok to bend and which ones aren't?

 

[Ernesto]

So is the filling of calor bottles by whoever more likely to cause injury to someone else than the risk of transmitting foot and mouth or other disease by the illegal transport of meat. Are there any statistics available for either? Who decides which rules are ok to bend and which ones aren't?

Who knows. In this life there are rule followers and rule breakers. The rule breakers are having some fun by posting about their exploits, annoying the rule followers

As is usual, if anything bad happens, it’s unlikely we’ll get to hear about it, but this thread will help inform people about the risks they may be taking if they decide to try it

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[Northernraider]

vent . There's a moulded water tank with a cylinder mould that the gas bottle sits in then just the wooden base of the wardrobe sits on top .

And that is exactly the danger point of filling a calor bottle ! Being OVERFILLED ABOVE THE 80% SAFETY LEVEL. It requires an integral mechanism or someone who knows exactly what they are doing to keep them at or below 80%, which a lot of funsters are capable of doing. However eBay does not just sell these adapters to competent funsters, there are no doubt other people buying them who are not as clued up. Ask the Health and Safety executive about any process that relies on a "human in the loop" verses a mechanical system.... And that is why, no matter what many people on this forum think, that it is illegal for the public to refill the likes of a calor cylinder.
There are enough quotes of the dangers of an OVERFILLED LPG vessel on this thread.

What a load of tosh.

Simple mathematics gets you 80% of 22 litres.

If you are incapable that's OK not everyone has the same abilities but don't judge others by your failings.