Petition to Reduce University student tuition fees from £9250 to £3000

[Chris]

Probably not but maybe you shouldn’t ha e been asked to do this in the first place. If I am being cynical university could be considered as a way of keeping the youth gainfully employed at the expense of the parents instead of the state. (Just another form of taxation).

That’s very true.

The boom in university courses ( like raising the school leaving age to 18) kept a lot of youngsters off the unemployment register.

 

[Hirsch]

Our VC had a salary of £314,000 (17/18 figures) for looking after a Uni with 16,500 students and around 1600 staff now. He is one of only 150 people who have double highly cited academics in the world and the University contributes 1.7 Billion to the UK economy.

We have 59 staff earning between 100-175,000. Our VC took a drop in pay to come to our Uni. One of the first things he did was bring in a donation of £1,000,000 from an associate.

Now if this chap was out in the real world running a corporation with 1.7 Billion turnover, how much would he be worth considering he paid his first 3 years wages within about a fortnight of turning up ?

Whats more is he is a thoroughly decent chap.

I am a decent chap. Where do I sign and when is my first pay day? I have never heard read so much rubbish.

 

[suavecarve]

I am a decent chap. Where do I sign and when is my first pay day? I have never heard read so much rubbish.

Your first sentence is negated by your 3rd

 

[Silver-Fox]

I would agree with the first bit. We have a number of people at our place who have degrees and are working alongside someone with no qualifications doing manual work for the logistics team. I do feel sorry for them, as someone must have sold the dream to them in the past. It seems 3 or 4 years wasted for some of these kids.
A bit off topic, but there was a post earlier about supermarket checkouts becoming automated. That is already happening in construction and I suspect in 20 or 30 years a significant number of manual jobs wont exist. There could be real social problems in the not too distant when automation replaces the majority of current occupations.

If you get sold the dream too easily maybe you shouldn’t be going to Uni in the first place

I would prefer to see youngsters striving to improve their knowledge in Maths, Engineering etc etc etc

As checkouts become more automated it will require people to look after them and back room systems people.

One door closes another opens etc

 

[Langtoftlad]

I am a decent chap. Where do I sign and when is my first pay day? I have never heard read so much rubbish.

Please forward your CV where you give examples of running a multi million pound business in the public sector.

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[Abacist]

As for University chancellors they are often figureheads, big names.
Ceremonial & ambassadorial roles
It is the 'Vice' Chancellors who earn the big bucks, they are de-facto CEO's of a large organisation, which like it or loathe it, has to balance the books... generate enough income to cover the costs of staffing, property & esoteric research.

Much like the salaries of big name charities, they have to run on sound business footings and thus the top bod can command a high salary.

They managed these roles quite well before the £9k fees came in at substantially less salaries!

I suppose Universities were an extension of the state when they were government funded which must have imposed some sort of cap on pay but now they are independent and self-funded they can pay what they like.

I find it quite obscene that there has been no reduction in fees as a result of the pandemic due to online learning as distinct from live lectures, tutorials etc.

 

[Coolcats]

They managed these roles quite well before the £9k fees came in at substantially less salaries!

I suppose Universities were an extension of the state when they were government funded which must have imposed some sort of cap on pay but now they are independent and self-funded they can pay what they like.

I find it quite obscene that there has been no reduction in fees as a result of the pandemic due to online learning as distinct from live lectures, tutorials etc.

What is interesting is that Universities despite the big money, they get are reducing Tutors pay and conditions including Pensions, the Vice Chancellors etc are not affected as they have the big money, sound familiar to industry really.

On the Tutoring front for those who undertook an OU Degree will tell you that Live lecture and tutorials where or are minimal, maybe 4 per year Undergrads will often moan that there are 100+ students in a lecture theatre but what they fail to tell you is the support they can receive but there is an expectation they do the reading and they do the research and write ups it is nothing like School for some its a big shock.

 

[Clipgate]

This A political as all governments have supported in one way or another fees.
However this is part of a larger picture of encouragement to enburden by debt the population.
Once in debt your not free to exercise choice over your life. The subject is far more complex than tuition fees, A book worth reading is Debt The First 5000 years, it put in perspective the currency game being played.
This leads me into the value of some "degrees" that should stir the pot! Then "The University Experience".

 

[The Wino]

It's a difficult one but one of the problems with the tuition fees argument is that students that do subjects that often lead to well paid jobs are likely to pay back a lot more than ones who do degrees they are interested in but realise they will add little or nothing to their future earnings potential.
Also if there a decision to reduce fees with the rest being funded presumably by the taxpayer what happens to recent graduates with student debt why should they be expected to pay back their debt and fund others through their taxation.
I think it was a wrong policy to expand universities so much but can't see any easy way back.

 

[SpeedyDux]

They managed these roles quite well before the £9k fees came in at substantially less salaries!

I suppose Universities were an extension of the state when they were government funded which must have imposed some sort of cap on pay but now they are independent and self-funded they can pay what they like.

I find it quite obscene that there has been no reduction in fees as a result of the pandemic due to online learning as distinct from live lectures, tutorials etc.

I could be wrong, but it looks to me like Unis aren't really self-funded to any great extent. The student loans are effectively taxpayer-funded, which might be the majority slice of the Unis' income. The other funding that Unis can generate independently is partly from fees paid by foreign students, from property rents, legacies and endowments from alumni, and funding for research and the profit share resulting from joint ventures to exploit that research and associated intellectual property rights.

Apparently there are some Oxbridge Colleges that are so richly endowed that they could afford to waive student fees but that must be exceptional.

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[Ivory55]

If you get sold the dream too easily maybe you shouldn’t be going to Uni in the first place

I would prefer to see youngsters striving to improve their knowledge in Maths, Engineering etc etc etc

As checkouts become more automated it will require people to look after them and back room systems people.

One door closes another opens etc

Yes that’s true to a point. Do you need as many to look after the automated tills as there are checkout workers ? Also people on the checkout now would not have or be able to learn to repair automatic tills

 

[tonyidle]

Also people on the checkout now would not have or be able to learn to repair automatic tills

That raises another interesting point. Already many complex systems are being maintained by 'parts changers'. Very little (and rapidly reducing) technical skill is required to look after anything with self-diagnostics designed in. The highly skilled jobs of the future will be in the imagining and design of totally new solutions. The technician will have much less of a role.

 

[Ivory55]

Yes there must be a limit to how many coffee and tea shops that are needed. I can’t see even replacing bits would be in my scope , so guessing plenty of others would be the same.

 

[hymerman]

The expansion of Universities offering so called Mickey Mouse degrees ( useless ) at least keeps all these people off of the unemployment register claiming benefit, which is where most of them will be when their so called degree is awarded.
I keep hearing of people complaining that they haven't been able to enjoy the ' University experience ' ,due to the current covid restrictions.
What's that all about?
University used to be just a place where people went to obtain a worthwhile degree to further their own lives choices, not a place to get pi---ed all the time and have a long holiday.
I'm obviously not referring to students studying to obtain a worthwhile degree.
We need more tradesmen, hopefully the Government will expand vocational training centres.

 

[Hirsch]

Please forward your CV where you give examples of running a multi million pound business in the public sector.

Sorry , I cannot give too much information away

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[Hirsch]

Your first sentence is negated by your 3rd

The last sentence doesn't mean I'm not a "thoroughly decent chap". It means I can be quite forthright at times.

 

[Coolcats]

The expansion of Universities offering so called Mickey Mouse degrees ( useless ) at least keeps all these people off of the unemployment register claiming benefit, which is where most of them will be when their so called degree is awarded.
I keep hearing of people complaining that they haven't been able to enjoy the ' University experience ' ,due to the current covid restrictions.
What's that all about?
University used to be just a place where people went to obtain a worthwhile degree to further their own lives choices, not a place to get pi---ed all the time and have a long holiday.
I'm obviously not referring to students studying to obtain a worthwhile degree.
We need more tradesmen, hopefully the Government will expand vocational training centres.

It is interesting when people say 'Micky Mouse' Degrees, it does depend on what people are studying and why they are studying them. As has been pointed out many trades are no longer required even in Building or tradesman as everything is becoming unitised. So would you find a degree in Hotel Management or sports Management a 'Mickey Mouse' degree? How about Music or Arts? One poster mentioned a degree on Roman Law, whilst on the face of t it may appear useless but may be highly valued within the Museum and History sector. There are many students who studied for a particular specialist trade or profession who then go on to work in a totally different field of work. Yet Just like an apprenticeship you carry the sthe learning and kills you have acquired and apply them in a different context. I value my apprenticeship, even though it was decades ago it has informed my decision making as much as the degrees I have undertaken.

 

[The Wino]

It is interesting when people say 'Micky Mouse' Degrees, it does depend on what people are studying and why they are studying them. As has been pointed out many trades are no longer required even in Building or tradesman as everything is becoming unitised. So would you find a degree in Hotel Management or sports Management a 'Mickey Mouse' degree? How about Music or Arts? One poster mentioned a degree on Roman Law, whilst on the face of t it may appear useless but may be highly valued within the Museum and History sector. There are many students who studied for a particular specialist trade or profession who then go on to work in a totally different field of work. Yet Just like an apprenticeship you carry the sthe learning and kills you have acquired and apply them in a different context. I value my apprenticeship, even though it was decades ago it has informed my decision making as much as the degrees I have undertaken.

I don't think anyone is saying courses that aren't likely to lead to employment should be ended but should all courses be equally subsidisd by the government if tuition fees were reduced.

 

[Ivory55]

One thing that these posts highlight is the different circles that people move in.

 

[Coolcats]

I don't think anyone is saying courses that aren't likely to lead to employment should be ended but should all courses be equally subsidisd by the government if tuition fees were reduced.

There are many courses that will not lead to direct employment, one example is Psychology, a degree in Psychology does not entitle you to call yourself a Psychologist or practise Psychology and most undergrad Psychology students do not go on to practise Psychology, so you could argue most undergrads who take that Degree are wasting their time and the course should not be subsidised. If you go and check out exit routes for particular courses you will see this is true for many.

However the underlying learning can for example be useful if you are entering HR or maybe an Account Manager. A Psychology proffesional has different routes, clinical, social, educational, organisational eco one of those titles will require much more training. So to become a Psychologist takes about 10 years + Masters + PhD + Hundreds of hours logged and supervised experience, non paying placements in the early stages then low paying ones and maybe just maybe a reasonable job when qualified.

So there is one example of one undergraduate degree that does not directly lead to employment and there are many more like this.

Many companies will give an undergrad a Job because they have a degree, with the thought that they should, with minimum guidance have the wherewith all to quickly start becoming a useful employee

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[Coolcats]

One thing that these posts highlight is the different circles that people move in.

Absolutely, I started with the notion that Higher Education should be for all at a reasonable cost should someone choose to do it.

 

[Ivory55]

Absolutely, I started with the notion that Higher Education should be for all at a reasonable cost should someone choose to do it.

But has to be paid for, but by who.

 

[busby]

So why do they choose to go to Uni and burden themselves and their family with debt?

Because it's the expected and done thing to go to UNI,, hate that abbreviation..Governments since the late 90s have really encouraged it because of advice from their advisors who have an ulterior motive,, they are all academics. New buzz word seems to be Apprentice and they think they have just invented them....What goes round comes round...BUSBY.

 

[busby]

I agree with that 100%

As you say obscene salaries paid to Chancellors who are glorified teachers. It shouldn't go unnoticed either that these obscene salaries only started getting paid when the tuition fees went from £3k to £9K, which tells its own story.

Vice Chancellors,,,BUSBY.

 

[Coolcats]

But has to be paid for, but by who.

Savings could be made to reduce costs and not just Chancellors pay, there are all the shiny new buildings. You have 100 students spending £9,700 per year all sitting in the same lecture theatre x 3 years is £2.76 Million, Essex University has for example 10,701 Undergraduates and 2,493 postgraduate. But this income is not the end of it all, Overseas students of which there are many is £19,950 (per year). If England wishes to have a bright educated workforce why not subsidise and make it affordable for all.....not just for those who have deep pockets. Why should we saddle the young with Debt that will follow them around before they start work making homes and starting families etc. My last Masters cost me £4,500 (today tuition fees would be £10K+ all the expenses) with travel books accommodation and other expenses it was more like £9K. I could afford it many cannot and I know there are many more brighter smarter and more capable than me but just cannot afford the cost, I would love others to have the same opportunity and not have Money as the barrier,

Just edited to say that the petition has nearly 500,000 signatures not bad in two day I think it is an emotive issue be good to see what happens

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[Spriddler]

I could afford it many cannot and I know there are many more brighter smarter and more capable than me but just cannot afford the cost, I would love others to have the same opportunity and not have Money as the barrier,

I left grammar school with 5 'O' levels in 1961 at age 16 and took up an engineering apprenticeship as there was absolutely no way that my parents could afford University for me. 'University' wasn't a word that ever occurred in our house and no-one in the family or of our acquaintance had been to University. My mother was 60 and my father 67 so almost Victorians.
The raison d'être of my grammar school was to have the kudos of producing university kids.
The day I left school (mid-term) the (feared) headmaster called me to his office (all walnut panelling, leather, punishment canes and oil portraits of past Heads): "Well, Boy, you can leave here with the satisfaction that you have squandered the place of someone who could have made a success of their life". That spiteful arrogance motivated me more to be 'successful' than anything else could have done.

 

[Coolcats]

I left grammar school with 5 'O' levels in 1961 at age 16 and took up an engineering apprenticeship as there was absolutely no way that my parents could afford University for me. 'University' wasn't a word that ever occurred in our house and no-one in the family or of our acquaintance had been to University. My mother was 60 and my father 67 so almost Victorians.
The raison d'être of my grammar school was to have the kudos of producing university kids.
The day I left school (mid-term) the (feared) headmaster called me to his office (all walnut panelling, leather, punishment canes and oil portraits of past Heads): "Well, Boy, you can leave here with the satisfaction that you have squandered the place of someone who could have made a success of their life". That spiteful arrogance motivated me more to be 'successful' than anything else could have done.

This made me smile, Grammar School eh you must have been clever and 'O'Levels something totally out of my reach, sounds like the important thing is you were motivated and became a success well done you.

I was told I had a laissez-faire attitude to life and would not succeed at anything........ The first thing I did was go to the library and look up the word to see what it meant even at the age of about 15 it made me chuckle. People learn what they are interested in and it doesn't matter whether its beekeeping, astronomy, knitting people obtain expertise from all sources and have to say an engineering apprenticeship will have stood you and anyone interested in good stead for whatever they chose to do in life.

 

[Ivory55]

Savings could be made to reduce costs and not just Chancellors pay, there are all the shiny new buildings. You have 100 students spending £9,700 per year all sitting in the same lecture theatre x 3 years is £2.76 Million, Essex University has for example 10,701 Undergraduates and 2,493 postgraduate. But this income is not the end of it all, Overseas students of which there are many is £19,950 (per year). If England wishes to have a bright educated workforce why not subsidise and make it affordable for all.....not just for those who have deep pockets. Why should we saddle the young with Debt that will follow them around before they start work making homes and starting families etc. My last Masters cost me £4,500 (today tuition fees would be £10K+ all the expenses) with travel books accommodation and other expenses it was more like £9K. I could afford it many cannot and I know there are many more brighter smarter and more capable than me but just cannot afford the cost, I would love others to have the same opportunity and not have Money as the barrier,

Just edited to say that the petition has nearly 500,000 signatures not bad in two day I think it is an emotive issue be good to see what happens

If it’s subsidised who is paying for it ?

 

[Ivory55]

Am guessing that get it for free will apply to everyone, like plumbers paying for corgi registration, hgv license, cpc and medical, electrician registration, etc etc .

 

[Coolcats]

Am guessing that get it for free will apply to everyone, like plumbers paying for corgi registration, hgv license, cpc and medical, electrician registration, etc etc .

No one said free what is said is to make it at a cost that is reasonable and fair for all to access.

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