Not looking good for diesels in Germany

[The Wino]

It sounds far worse than the UK & should have been addressed years ago along with the stupid early retirement allowed in many positions.


They have never done that, nor will they ever. If they had done in other areas & especially with the north sea oil the Uk would be in as good a position as Norway.As @Ivory55 pointed out politicians in any country will always put the party second after they have looked after themselves. The populace & country are merely a means to there ends.

That one has lost me ? Are we talking additional taxes on domestic or what ?



& here we are in Spain with a complete phase out & nothing but electric allowed from 2050 & the usual house supply is 5kw .That's going to work well ? I've never seen a car charging point anywhere in spain except the odd Tesla installation.
You also have to remember that here in what is termed as the 'campo' , countryside , if you construct any type of building, for whatever purpose be it agricultural, engineering, vegetable or fruit production/packaging, you have no right to an electricity supply. You have to install solar /generators /whatever.
As far as I can see there is no joined up thinking from anyone & they are all kicking the problem down the line & have been doing the same for years & now we are in a situation where something needs to be done but no one has a clue.

Totally agree wit the last sentance

 

[barsteward]

Just why do you think all those people are travelling through France to get here? We could tomorrow set regulations on new arrivals here to regulate migration but the fact non-eu migration is rising and EU migration is falling seems to have escaped totally the attention of the followers of Farage. Its yet another example of people looking at the failings (if you think migration is a bad thing and I don't necessarily agree) in our country and blaming them on someone else.

look, I'm a numpty so please explain so that the rest of the numpties like me can understand, I then may be able to decipher what is happening in Britain...... Crumbling infrastructure, Crumbling NHS, Crumbling Police System and we are the 5th largest economy in Europe. I don't know (because quite honestly I haven't got the patients anymore) how or why there is a que of people many of whom have just passed through the 4 other wealthier european economies are encamped on our already overcrowded doorstep? This is not a political point scoring question I genuinely have a problem if Europe is so encompassing and awe inspiring why is it that we have...no housing, a struggling health service etc etc.

 

[The Wino]

look, I'm a numpty so please explain so that the rest of the numpties like me can understand, I then may be able to decipher what is happening in Britain...... Crumbling infrastructure, Crumbling NHS, Crumbling Police System and we are the 5th largest economy in Europe. I don't know (because quite honestly I haven't got the patients anymore) how or why there is a que of people many of whom have just passed through the 4 other wealthier european economies are encamped on our already overcrowded doorstep? This is not a political point scoring question I genuinely have a problem if Europe is so encompassing and awe inspiring why is it that we have...no housing, a struggling health service etc etc.

I think there is a mix of things that encourage people to come here. One is the language a lot learn American really but it does here. Theres also the fact you qualify immediately for a lot of state help we could change that to like in other countries you have to pay in for a length of time before being able to get anything out ( or compulsory work if claiming and out of work more than 3 months litter collecting public works etc). you also have to look at how our system looks when you come from a country with no healthcare no unemployment/in work benefits no free education no free speech etc etc. We are still very well off in world terms its just a lot have got used to expecting things to get better year on year and are now pI***d off when they don't. The number of illegals is a drop in the ocean compared tot he population anyway

 

[PhilG]

I am really in favour of increasing fuel prices rather than banning . I know a lot will say the rich will not be affected but thats true of everything!!. Increasing fuel costs directly encouraged less fuel use domestic and vehicle and in industry

But increasing fuel costs , increases the cost of absolutely everything. Whereas taxing cars are their purchase price takes money from those who can afford it , without raising costs for those that cant. If you can afford an £80k car , you can pay a grand a year to tax it . and if you have 2, the second one should be more. But if you are running a low emmision car with a 1 litre engine, that should be free.

 

[barsteward]

I think there is a mix of things that encourage people to come here. One is the language a lot learn American really but it does here. Theres also the fact you qualify immediately for a lot of state help we could change that to like in other countries you have to pay in for a length of time before being able to get anything out ( or compulsory work if claiming and out of work more than 3 months litter collecting public works etc). you also have to look at how our system looks when you come from a country with no healthcare no unemployment/in work benefits no free education no free speech etc etc. We are still very well off in world terms its just a lot have got used to expecting things to get better year on year and are now pI***d off when they don't. The number of illegals is a drop in the ocean compared tot he population anyway

Which is kinda like what I am trying to say really, there's loads of room out there just everyone seems to want the bit we're living in regardless of culture, that's not my problem' I can drive unfettered for hundreds of miles in France and Spain but I cant get onto the main road outside my house because of congestion and 20 years ago my horse and cart would have only been overtaken by modern side valve engine.

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[The Wino]

But increasing fuel costs , increases the cost of absolutely everything. Whereas taxing cars are their purchase price takes money from those who can afford it , without raising costs for those that cant. If you can afford an £80k car , you can pay a grand a year to tax it . and if you have 2, the second one should be more. But if you are running a low emmision car with a 1 litre engine, that should be free.

Too complicated and it encourages manufacturers to do a VW just stick up the price of fuel not only encourages smaller engined cars also encourages car sharing/public transport etc. There could also be an increase in purchase tax depending on emissions but car tax is too complicated with all the year on year changes

 

[The Wino]

Which is kinda like what I am trying to say really, there's loads of room out there just everyone seems to want the bit we're living in regardless of culture, that's not my problem' I can drive unfettered for hundreds of miles in France and Spain but I cant get onto the main road outside my house because of congestion and 20 years ago my horse and cart would have only been overtaken by modern side valve engine.

Maybe not 20 years but 50 yes!!. But is it a problem and if so what to do?

 

[PhilG]

Too complicated and it encourages manufacturers to do a VW just stick up the price of fuel not only encourages smaller engined cars also encourages car sharing/public transport etc. There could also be an increase in purchase tax depending on emissions but car tax is too complicated with all the year on year changes

Whats complicated ? If it costs this, you pay that, and if the manufacturers start building cars to a price ceiling, to avoid it, well we have cheaper cars so who cares. It seems to work ok with people's earnings,and i can choose to buy a cheap car, and my next door neighbour who has the thick end of £100k on his drive can pay for the priviledge of having it.

Tax the rich, not the world

 

[The Wino]

Whats complicated ? If it costs this, you pay that, and if the manufacturers start building cars to a price ceiling, to avoid it, well we have cheaper cars so who cares. It seems to work ok with people's earnings,and i can choose to buy a cheap car, and my next door neighbour who has the thick end of £100k on his drive can pay for the priviledge of having it.

Tax the rich, not the world

No in this case tax the polluters rich or poor. If you want an example of how badly car tax works in reducing emissions look at the way lots of co. cars are now hybrids which must use more energy and pollution to produce but are being driven but never plugged in !!

 

[PeteH]

An equally simplistic view:

I wonder how many realise that when flying in a jet passenger plane, three quarters of the Earth's atmosphere is below you. The Earth has a diameter of 25,000 miles, yet three quarters of the atmosphere is a layer just 7 miles thick. Mount Everest is 5.5 miles high!

Its a very thin layer of air we are chucking all that pollution into.

Exactly. BUT, the very Jet you are in is dumping more pollution than we ever do individually. I remember some years back, David Bellamy. Flew to Australia JUST to collect an award for his "environmental work!.

People complain about ships being "polluters", But again one ship transports goods and food at extremely low cost per Kg. Air Freight is fast, yes, but very very costly in the "Pollution" arena.

"Coal" as a furnace fuel is slagged off. But the tech: to reduce and Capture the CO2 exists, not cheap but it exists and could have been used in the UK, had the will been there

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[Nicepix]

So who pays for the carrots the people in citys who have decided to do without a car those who have bought an electric one to reduce pollution those who can't afford a car?. Sounds to me like I'm all right Pierre let someone else pay. Its a bit like when I used to see people at work who retired to the countryside then their sight was too bad to drive they would always say but I need to drive there are no busses who has the greater right the person in the countryside of the kid they run over?

Sorry, but you simply do not grasp the wider implications. You have a very narrow minded and I might add, biased view.

For one thing there is not yet an overwhelming verdict on the needs for these measures. That graph posted a few pages back as evidence of the climate change does not actually support that view. There are contrary opinions dependent on who you believe. Unless there is a unified view that the majority believe in then somebody will naturally feel victimised for losing out.

Where are all these green targets that the UK and France have to meet coming from? The EU, that's where. Each country is being made to bring in these measures by EU directives. Do EU directives alter the policies of China, USA and other large industrial countries?

If not, what actual benefit would a European only initiative solve?

Why is the answer always to increase taxes?

For decades there have been government and council programs to push retail and services out of town and city centres. Retail parks nowadays also have clinics and veterinary centres as well as other services. Few if any could be fully used by public transport alone yet all the major rail stations go to town and city centres. How do you change that?

How would you envisage to accommodate all the country living folk to be absorbed into already crowded and overly expensive town and city centres in the time scale that these measures dictate?

Your views are simply naive at best and biased at worst.

 

[The Wino]

Sorry, but you simply do not grasp the wider implications. You have a very narrow minded and I might add, biased view.

For one thing there is not yet an overwhelming verdict on the needs for these measures. That graph posted a few pages back as evidence of the climate change does not actually support that view. There are contrary opinions dependent on who you believe. Unless there is a unified view that the majority believe in then somebody will naturally feel victimised for losing out.

Where are all these green targets that the UK and France have to meet coming from? The EU, that's where. Each country is being made to bring in these measures by EU directives. Do EU directives alter the policies of China, USA and other large industrial countries?

If not, what actual benefit would a European only initiative solve?

Why is the answer always to increase taxes?

For decades there have been government and council programs to push retail and services out of town and city centres. Retail parks nowadays also have clinics and veterinary centres as well as other services. Few if any could be fully used by public transport alone yet all the major rail stations go to town and city centres. How do you change that?

How would you envisage to accommodate all the country living folk to be absorbed into already crowded and overly expensive town and city centres in the time scale that these measures dictate?

Your views are simply naive at best and biased at worst.

But your views are the climate change deniers they will do nothing until its too late as I said its the I'm all right Jack stuff the next generations selfish and narrow minded.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I think there is a mix of things that encourage people to come here. One is the language a lot learn American really but it does here. Theres also the fact you qualify immediately for a lot of state help we could change that to like in other countries you have to pay in for a length of time before being able to get anything out ( or compulsory work if claiming and out of work more than 3 months litter collecting public works etc). you also have to look at how our system looks when you come from a country with no healthcare no unemployment/in work benefits no free education no free speech etc etc. We are still very well off in world terms its just a lot have got used to expecting things to get better year on year and are now pI***d off when they don't. The number of illegals is a drop in the ocean compared tot he population anyway

I agree with your post, except the last sentence. Regarding "a drop in the ocean":

150,000 illegals a year - that's the official guesstimate. The most recent annual number of net (legal) immigrants, 270,000 is also suspect because it is based on small sample passenger surveys. The Government has no reliable hard data on immigration and emigration because it is their policy not to collect such data at ports and airports. Incredible, when they require biometric passports, and in the case of non-EU countries, visas.

Google and Facebook probably could mine all the estimated 4000 data points they hold on everyone in the UK (illegals all seem to use smartphones so that makes it easier), and could come up with a more reliable set of statistics for the total of non-British illegal and legal migrants currently in the UK. Also, the actual total population number which is likely to be at variance with the official number based on the last Census.

The government regardless whether it is Labour or Tory simply doesn't care about actual migration numbers and long ago stopped listening to public opinion. Maybe it shares your view that this a drop in the ocean. Everyone who has experienced overstretched public services, housing shortages and unaffordability for the younger generation, soaring private rents, frequent gridlock on the road system and trains with standing room only, would disagree. All these drops in the ocean added together mean that today parts of the UK are seriously underwater as far as population is concerned.

Public perception outside Westminster is that we are badly overcrowded with too high a population density, certainly in much of England. (Scotland except Glasgow has a declining population trend but not many migrants head towards Scotland. Pro-migration lobbyists quote the overall UK population density but that ignores the distribution that in reality sees them concentrated in England especially London and the South.)

Even T May eventually admitted that immigration was one reason why Leave won the referendum. She recently made the somewhat hollow claim that her WA deal takes back control of immigration. Forgetting her woeful failure during her long tenure as Home Secretary to deliver the repeated Tory election promises of reducing net migration to the "tens of thousands", including her failure to apply the basic controls that EU rules allowed. Weasel words and hypocrisy.

 

[gus-lopez]

No in this case tax the polluters rich or poor. If you want an example of how badly car tax works in reducing emissions look at the way lots of co. cars are now hybrids which must use more energy and pollution to produce but are being driven but never plugged in !!

& this is because the rules are introduced by half wits which is what most politicians & civil servants are. They need to be drafted by people who will always assume that the user will attempt to bypass/bend/abuse any rules & so be all encompassing & without any loopholes.
You need people to draft them whose main trait is pessimism & "what if" "why?" as a first response to all & any new ideas,rules or regulations. People who query anything & everything.

 

[The Wino]

& this is because the rules are introduced by half wits which is what most politicians & civil servants are. They need to be drafted by people who will always assume that the user will attempt to bypass/bend/abuse any rules & so be all encompassing & without any loopholes.
You need people to draft them whose main trait is pessimism & "what if" "why?" as a first response to all & any new ideas,rules or regulations. People who query anything & everything.

I see it as a reason to keep it simple. Its the same with tax avoidance (legal) if the laws were simpler there would be no loopholes. Same with cars keep it simple expensive fuel discourages its use.

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[WESTY66]

I see it as a reason to keep it simple. Its the same with tax avoidance (legal) if the laws were simpler there would be no loopholes. Same with cars keep it simple expensive fuel discourages its use.

@The Wino, you don’t have to tell me this but may I ask how old you are, the reason I ask is that I was having this conversation the other day with a guy who was late 70’s and he had the view “I’ve had all the cheap fuel in my youth, I’ve had the freedom of motoring everywhere, now I’m nearly done driving they can tax it to high heavens for all I care”
I’m just starting out on my adventures motorhoming and I wouldn’t like the costs to be so prohibitive I have to sell it before I start(euro5) so I guess you’ve had you’re enjoyment so you don’t particularly care about the upcoming new younger motorhomers.
I am doing sod all for the planet (except the plastic stuff) till ALL the countries on the planet are on the same song sheet, don’t see why I should be paying thru the nose when USA, China, India et al are belching crap out like there’s literally no tomorrow!! Hell haven’t they just had a green conference or something in the town that has the biggest coal fired power station in Europe, Katowice!! And you expect me to pay more to offset that lot?? Really??

 

[tonyidle]

This is interesting. Take a look at fuel (and other expenses) for any year you choose & compare it with today. Some real eye-openers.

https://www.hillarys.co.uk/back-in-my-day/

 

[The Wino]

@The Wino, you don’t have to tell me this but may I ask how old you are, the reason I ask is that I was having this conversation the other day with a guy who was late 70’s and he had the view “I’ve had all the cheap fuel in my youth, I’ve had the freedom of motoring everywhere, now I’m nearly done driving they can tax it to high heavens for all I care”
I’m just starting out on my adventures motorhoming and I wouldn’t like the costs to be so prohibitive I have to sell it before I start(euro5) so I guess you’ve had you’re enjoyment so you don’t particularly care about the upcoming new younger motorhomers.
I am doing sod all for the planet (except the plastic stuff) till ALL the countries on the planet are on the same song sheet, don’t see why I should be paying thru the nose when USA, China, India et al are belching crap out like there’s literally no tomorrow!! Hell haven’t they just had a green conference or something in the town that has the biggest coal fired power station in Europe, Katowice!! And you expect me to pay more to offset that lot?? Really??

58 how old are you? still hope to have a good few years yet touring and when we do get away we tend to go long distances. If all the countries have your attitude we're stuffed!!!

 

[The Wino]

This is interesting. Take a look at fuel (and other expenses) for any year you choose & compare it with today. Some real eye-openers.

https://www.hillarys.co.uk/back-in-my-day/

Yes it is interesting . I chose the 1970's and was surprised that fuel is cheaper now in real terms than then

 

[DC4JC]

58 how old are you? still hope to have a good few years yet touring and when we do get away we tend to go long distances. If all the countries have your attitude we're stuffed!!!

Unfortunately he is correct. We are deluding ourselves if we think what we do in this country is going to make a difference. We need the whole world to sign up. But this isnt going to happen anytime soon. Too many of these countries have seen what we in the west have had for many years and now they are able want the same. Cars, phones, tvs etc.
With their vast size and populations driving,heating,cooking etc they are not to be denied what we have enjoying for decades.
But, the biggest polluters on the planet are not the cars etc but the billions of cows now on the earth, that are required to feed the ever growing populations of the world, including us.

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[WESTY66]

58 how old are you? still hope to have a good few years yet touring and when we do get away we tend to go long distances. If all the countries have your attitude we're stuffed!!!

52 unfortunately most of the world has my attitude. If I thought I made a difference I would change my views but if I never started an engine again in my life, it wouldn’t change a thing.

 

[tonyidle]

Yes it is interesting . I chose the 1970's and was surprised that fuel is cheaper now in real terms than then

Strangely that was the decade I chose too. Interesting also how far average salaries have fallen behind.

 

[gus-lopez]

We need the whole world to sign up. But this isnt going to happen anytime soon.

They were supposed to in 1992 with the Montreal protocol. The yanks did everything but. 26 years , wasted.
I'd give up everything before I gave up any vehicles.Only reason I ever went to work. Problem came when they encouraged those who think it is a means of motorised walking, or running the fat lumps to school.all of which is far more of a problem.

 

[The Wino]

Strangely that was the decade I chose too. Interesting also how far average salaries have fallen behind.

What year and where do you live in my example the wages in 1975 were 21% less than now

 

[tonyidle]

What year and where do you live in my example the wages in 1975 were 21% less than now

I chose NW & 1970.

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[Enword]

I agree we have to look after the planet, but it always makes me smile with these type discussions, lets not forget every motor vehicle that's built causes massive pollution long before the key is turned in the ignition, every plane that's built the same massive pollution even before its first test flight.

But guess who's made to feel guilty about all this pollution Joe public, a teacher once said to us (60s) "when the fear of religion stops controlling us they will have to find something else for us to pay"

Its economics that drives everything, take the humble washing machine, three hundred quid, 3 years old pcb goes £170 plus VAT & fitting that's bullshit its a few quid at most, they just want you to have new again, no thought of the planet, yet more pollution that Joe Public will be made to feel guilty about, All machines could be kept going for year's & year's with a reasonably priced parts backup! Don't get me started on printers/ink or Plastic

 

[Blue Knight]

A quick sound bite for you all: Iraq currently flares (burns off) around 1.2 billion cubic feet of gas per day.

This has an equivalent energy value of 312,000 barrels of oil per day!

That said, we all need to do our part.

 

[The Wino]

I chose NW & 1970.

I just tried that wages in that area in 1970 were 41% lower than now I think the way its worded is a bit confusing as its mainly comparing costs not benefits!!. Rejoice you are better off in real terms as all the figures are adjusted for inflation

 

[tonyidle]

Rejoice you are better off in real terms as all the figures are adjusted for inflation

I knew that .

 

[PeteH]

I see it as a reason to keep it simple. Its the same with tax avoidance (legal) if the laws were simpler there would be no loopholes. Same with cars keep it simple expensive fuel discourages its use.

Expensive fuel, ONLY impacts those who are at the lower end of the wealth scale. I bought my vehicles IN GOOD FAITH. I expect to be able to use them until the end of their service life. Regardless of the health of the planet. I do not care what some green warrier feels. If you want to change it fine. But don't expect ME to pay for your whims.

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