Not looking good for diesels in Germany

[PhilG]

The only way to force change is to produce an end date for the ICE. What else would force industry to make any change?

That is great, as long as the decision is made by people who actually understand the consequences of doing that . The motor industry has been improving and air quality has never been better in our towns and cities. The expectation that people will buy overpriced and totally unsuitable EV's in large enough numbers to keep the car companies going is utter fantasy, Tesla are already finding that out, because the orders they need to sustain production levels that they are now doing (or say that they are doing, but that is another story) are simply not there, and never will be.

The true cost of a crappy shopping car like the Nissan Leaf.. £30k!!!! And 3 years old you can get them for £10k.. Now i dont know about you, but i cant afford to be losing £140 a week on a car that has a range of less than 200 miles. And morover i dont know anyone else that can either. Not when i can buy a Fiesta brand new for £15k , or a Suzuki Celerio 1 litre for £7500..

But the 'rule makers' dont live in this world.. it will be carnage,because when the car industry is on its arse , everything else isnt far behind

 

[Tykatem]

Pete

 

[barsteward]

Most pollution is but a symptom, the real problem is a population that is growing out of control.
Perhaps we need to start addressing the cause?

 

[gus-lopez]

The true cost of a crappy shopping car like the Nissan Leaf.. £30k!!!! And 3 years old you can get them for £10k..

I spoke to a bloke with one in Dawlish this summer. He said they counldn't sell them new so registered them for the salesmen to drive then after 6 months sold them as second hand ,complete with the governments5k subsidy , & he paid 16k for his.

Most pollution is but a symptom, the real problem is a population that is growing out of control.
Perhaps we need to start addressing the cause?

I've been saying that for years but they won't let me.

 

[tonyidle]

That is great, as long as the decision is made by people who actually understand the consequences of doing that . The motor industry has been improving and air quality has never been better in our towns and cities. The expectation that people will buy overpriced and totally unsuitable EV's in large enough numbers to keep the car companies going is utter fantasy, Tesla are already finding that out, because the orders they need to sustain production levels that they are now doing (or say that they are doing, but that is another story) are simply not there, and never will be.

The true cost of a crappy shopping car like the Nissan Leaf.. £30k!!!! And 3 years old you can get them for £10k.. Now i dont know about you, but i cant afford to be losing £140 a week on a car that has a range of less than 200 miles. And morover i dont know anyone else that can either. Not when i can buy a Fiesta brand new for £15k , or a Suzuki Celerio 1 litre for £7500..

But the 'rule makers' dont live in this world.. it will be carnage,because when the car industry is on its arse , everything else isnt far behind

I agree with everything you say. There's only one way to force innovation though and that is what's happening. The car industry, over a relatively short timescale, transformed its output to accommodate safety, longevity, and environmental concerns by turning rusting, environmentally filthy, and unsafe designs into what we have today. And todays vehicles are cheaper to buy and operate than any that went before. They need to do it again and this time the only change is to the power unit and fuelling. They are masters of survival and will adapt. Electric powered cars are expensive because they aren't mainstream and because battery technology is expensive (but becoming cheaper). Between now and the ICE cut-off date car makers will adapt and survive - and to do so they will be forced to offer vehicles that are affordable.

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[nicholsong]

Most pollution is but a symptom, the real problem is a population that is growing out of control.
Perhaps we need to start addressing the cause?

I have.

No children.

Am I a good lad?

 

[PhilG]

I agree with everything you say. There's only one way to force innovation though and that is what's happening. The car industry, over a relatively short timescale, transformed its output to accommodate safety, longevity, and environmental concerns by turning rusting, environmentally filthy, and unsafe designs into what we have today. And todays vehicles are cheaper to buy and operate than any that went before. They need to do it again and this time the only change is to the power unit and fuelling. They are masters of survival and will adapt. Electric powered cars are expensive because they aren't mainstream and because battery technology is expensive (but becoming cheaper). Between now and the ICE cut-off date car makers will adapt and survive - and to do so they will be forced to offer vehicles that are affordable.

The issue here is that the timeframe is being set by people who have no dog in the fight. And as for making them affordable... with an ICE, modern methods mean that if we we able to build the car of the past (without all the guff like airbags and aircon, and electric stuff we dont actually need) the cost would be even lower. That £7500 car could probably be sold for £5k and still make a profit.. with an ICE car the manufacturer makes the thing, and nature provides the fuels ay price the market dictates.. with an EV the materials for the battery are effectively the fuel, and as demand increases , so will the price.. there is no economy of scale when you are dealing with a finite resource. So my take is that they will never be affordable.

As i have stated in the excellent Tesla thread, you could PAY me £100 a week to drive a Leaf and it would still cost me more than my current car to run.

I had good chat on the phone with my mate this morning, he is a very experienced contractor in the motor industry, having worked for JLR , Bentley, Rolls Royce in the UK, and Audi, Porsche and Mercedes in Germany. He has just been laid off for Xmas, along with all the other contractors. He said to me, 'we have been stopped from making cars that we want to make, and people want to buy, to designing stuff that we hate , and we cant make and sell at a profit'. As a business that isnt good, when even the cheap cars are out of the range of a regular buyer.

As has been said, Nissan are having to register Leaf's just to get them off the books . Its a flawed premise, that if left to go as it is will kill the car industry and all that it supports. The Musk nut huggers and Yoghurt Knitters can pontificate all they want, but at the end of the day, if it doesnt make money, it doesnt last long.

I will never have an EV , even if they were giving them away, because they just dont work, as an idea.. jesus i have a bad enough day if my phone goes flat, i cant even imagine transferring that to a car .

 

[robnchris]

The only way to force change is to produce an end date for the ICE. What else would force industry to make any change?

Utterly and totally incorrect, the way forward isn't to have an imaginable fantasy future made up by people that have no conception of what they are talking about.
The suggestion that you can force people, big companies, technology is madness, the way forward is through necessity, unfortunately our technology isn't far enough advanced to allow a bunch of idiots to make a sweeping statement such as they have.
Of course we need to move on but the electric car just somehow doesn't fit the bill, the hybrid is even further from what we need, despite battery technology being sadly lacking for our requirements and some 35 to 40 million vehicles currently in use on the roads of Britain it doesn't seem likely that we will have them replaced by electric powered vehicles in the next 60 yrs, how many power stations are you going to have to build to cope with the not only the increased demand for the ever increasing populations demands but also to power some 40 million electric vehicles.

 

[robnchris]

View attachment 269997

Pete

Quoting a line from a famous film, take a look at these proportions they are correct.
Surely this is not the way forward.

 

[barsteward]

I have.

No children.

Am I a good lad?

I'm sure there could be a number of answers to that question but.....perhaps you should get married for a start

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[Spriddler]

About 25 years ago we were all conned into buying diesel cars etc because they were less polluting than petrol engines

Well, blow me down! That was exactly what the excellent pollution test results from VW and other manufacturers showed (until they were caught out).

 

[PeteH]

Lots of views mainly still from the I'm all right Jack because I won't be around for it to bother me brigade and lets have cheap diesel and sod the future and mostly backward looking........sad really.

No, Just Practical, I bought diesel in good faith. I expect to be able to use it ANYWHERE until the end of it`s natural life cycle. That goes IMHO for ANYTHING. By all means stop producing NEW. But don`t expect those who bought IN GOOD FAITH to fund it!.

 

[PeteH]

Most pollution is but a symptom, the real problem is a population that is growing out of control.
Perhaps we need to start addressing the cause?

The Vatican, is a big part of the issue, followed by some quite nasty dictatorships and most of the Islamic world.

 

[gus-lopez]

Well, blow me down! That was exactly what the excellent pollution test results from VW and other manufacturers showed (until they were caught out).

The only requirement they had was that the emissions passed the test. There was no specification that stated they then had to do it continually. I'm always amazed that anybody A) purchases vehicles based on the fuel consumption/emissions & B) that they actually believe anything that someone who has a vested interest in selling it, tells them.

 

[PhilG]

The only requirement they had was that the emissions passed the test. There was no specification that stated they then had to do it continually. I'm always amazed that anybody A) purchases vehicles based on the fuel consumption/emissions & B) that they actually believe anything that someone who has a vested interest in selling it, tells them.

Exactley.. we have to pass a noise test with the bikes, x decibels at x revs. Ignition map done to suit . Again, anyone who believes that every car manufacturer isnt doing the same, is kidding themselves.

The difference between an EV , and a normal car , is that if it does a bit less on a tank of petrol, its not a big deal , if it does less on a battery, its a very big deal.

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[barsteward]

The Vatican, is a big part of the issue, followed by some quite nasty dictatorships and most of the Islamic world.

Who is prepared to pick up the poison chalice

 

[Nicepix]

I think the blame for this has to be laid squarely at the car manufactures, they were the one’s that started fitting family and small cars with diesel engines in an effort to boost sales.

If the diesel engine had been kept purely for commercial vehicles, we would not be in this position now.

Car manufacturers respond to market trends. They offered small diesels along with small petrol cars and people opted for the diesels. The manufacturers didn't force the customers to buy diesels.

The blame lies with the governments. They are the ones who promoted diesel over petrol with tax advantages.

True but how many MPs have directorship of certain companies etc who have vested interests or their families etc in what products are pushed. Money is the be all and end all.

Well, you tell me how many of the MPs have vested interests that caused the majority of drivers to choose diesel over petrol cars. Because if you can't then the comment is worthless.

 

[Ivory55]

Well, you tell me how many of the MPs have vested interests that caused the majority of drivers to choose diesel over petrol cars. Because if you can't then the comment is worthless.

May be you think the sun shines out of politicians rear ends but I don’t. If there is money involved then they are there and they are clever at covering their tracks.

 

[Nicepix]

May be you think the sun shines out of politicians rear ends but I don’t. If there is money involved then they are there and they are clever at covering their tracks.

I don't think that. Don't know where you got that idea from.

But without proof of what you say, you are trying to make a statement based on nothing but your own blind prejudice. All MPs interests are listed on 'They work For You' website so if your allegations are correct then you should be able to find the numbers of MPs and their interests. Otherwise your statement is worthless.

 

[Ivory55]

Government creates the tax system, dodges , loop holes and subsidies for businesses to exploit. If it’s more profitable for them to buy diesel cars that’s what business does. As most cars are brought by business that’s what’s sold. You might have lots of money to choose a new car of your choice. Most of us buy second hand and if there is only diesel ones because the people who brought them new choose diesel that’s what we buy. I am not particularly bothered as I will probably be dead by the time diesel is banned so will just carry on as we are.

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[Enword]

Government creates the tax system, dodges , loop holes and subsidies for businesses to exploit. If it’s more profitable for them to buy diesel cars that’s what business does. As most cars are brought by business that’s what’s sold. You might have lots of money to choose a new car of your choice. Most of us buy second hand and if there is only diesel ones because the people who brought them new choose diesel that’s what we buy. I am not particularly bothered as I will probably be dead by the time diesel is banned so will just carry on as we are.

I know Factory's & company's where they have plugin hybrid vehicles, which are never plugged into the grid to be charged, they were purchased because of the deals/incentives & because it made them look good, its like so much these day's, just ticking boxes!

 

[CazPaul]

I know Factory's & company's where they have plugin hybrid vehicles, which are never plugged into the grid be charged, they were purchased because of the deals/incentives & because it made them look good, its like so much these day's, just ticking boxes!

It was on the news about 10 days ago saying exactly the same, hybrid part never used by a lot of buyers.

 

[Enword]

It was on the news about 10 days ago saying exactly the same, hybrid part never used by a lot of buyers.

I didn't see that, but not surprised, where I referenced is not that far from us.

 

[The Wino]

No, Just Practical, I bought diesel in good faith. I expect to be able to use it ANYWHERE until the end of it`s natural life cycle. That goes IMHO for ANYTHING. By all means stop producing NEW. But don`t expect those who bought IN GOOD FAITH to fund it!.

I'm afraid its tough luck then as you won't be able to use it anywhere at present (without a charge unless its recent). To use your argument companies should be allowed to continue to use polluting plants until they are no longer usable. As I said the I'm all right jack sod the future. If we are serious about reducing pollution there ought to be increased tax on all energy its bonkers having a lower rate of vat on gas and electric

 

[PeteH]

I'm afraid its tough luck then as you won't be able to use it anywhere at present (without a charge unless its recent). To use your argument companies should be allowed to continue to use polluting plants until they are no longer usable. As I said the I'm all right jack sod the future. If we are serious about reducing pollution there ought to be increased tax on all energy its bonkers having a lower rate of vat on gas and electric

The only issue there is the veracity of the whole "Global Warming" scenario. I so do not trust Politicians who are ramping it up in order to create fear. (Like another current issue too). The so called "Man-made" element has been so over-hyped as to be un-real, We have had periods of warming and cooling throughout the history of the planet. The UK is a minuscule player in any of this, yet we "have to be seen to do the decent thing" whilst China, Russia, India, Brazil, you name them! continue to pump out Greenhouse gas. Yes I DO think its time the UK adopted an attitude of "when YOU do it we will" NOT the other way round!. I was brought up to believe "Charity Begins AT HOME". Like NOT sending Millions in "AID" to countries with Nuclear Aspirations.

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[Nicepix]

Government creates the tax system, dodges , loop holes and subsidies for businesses to exploit. If it’s more profitable for them to buy diesel cars that’s what business does. As most cars are brought by business that’s what’s sold. You might have lots of money to choose a new car of your choice. Most of us buy second hand and if there is only diesel ones because the people who brought them new choose diesel that’s what we buy. I am not particularly bothered as I will probably be dead by the time diesel is banned so will just carry on as we are.

Nice theory. But again no evidence, just opinion.

Given that cars are bought from the same places whether they are diesel or petrol. Fuel whether it is diesel or petrol comes from the same refineries and sold by the same companies. And taxes, whether they are on diesel or petrol are collected by HMCR I'm really struggling to see where the political corruption that you allege is and who it benefits?

There is no doubt that government policy has caused the diesel boom, but I'm still waiting for you to show the evidence for your allegations that government ministers steered the policy for their own ends.

 

[PhilG]

The whole Global Warming thing , and especially the 'premature death ' thing is so open to abuse its untrue.. How premature? well best guesses are that it is minutes, days or even weeks, maybe months but nothing that I consider can be directly attributable , like for instance smoking. As a smoker, its the risk you take, as a passive smoker its a guess

We are screwing the whole thing up trying to achieve something you cannot truly correlate to even know if it worked, because there are too many variables.

Its great to say , if you gave up drink , drugs, sex and bacon you could live to be 100, but who would want to . AND we are getting in a mess because people are living longer , we don't want that to get worse do we ?

 

[thebriars]

The only issue there is the veracity of the whole "Global Warming" scenario. I so do not trust Politicians who are ramping it up in order to create fear. (Like another current issue too). The so called "Man-made" element has been so over-hyped as to be un-real, We have had periods of warming and cooling throughout the history of the planet.

Of course we have had periods of warming and cooling throughout the history of the Earth. However those periods are measured in hundreds of thousands of years. The current changes of temperature are happening at a period of tens of years. It is the enormous difference in these timescales that is really worrying, and the Earth cannot possibly recover in these short timescales.

 

[tonyidle]

Of course we have had periods of warming and cooling throughout the history of the Earth. However those periods are measured in hundreds of thousands of years. The current changes of temperature are happening at a period of tens of years. It is the enormous difference in these timescales that is really worrying, and the Earth cannot possibly recover in these short timescales.

Or, to take a simplistic view: natural CO2 production prior to the Age of Industrialisation was kept in check by trees sucking it in and spitting out oxygen. Since the beginning of the Industrial Age we have cut down trees in huge numbers and massively increased the production of CO2 (figures are somewhere in this thread or available via Google). Is it not stretching the imagination to suggest that none of this will impact the Planet? At no other period in the Earths history has hydrocarbon fuel been burned at all (apart from individuals burning wood to keep warm) never mind burned in the mind-blowing quantities of the last 100 years or so. And people still believe it will have no effect.

 

[thebriars]

An equally simplistic view:

I wonder how many realise that when flying in a jet passenger plane, three quarters of the Earth's atmosphere is below you. The Earth has a diameter of 25,000 miles, yet three quarters of the atmosphere is a layer just 7 miles thick. Mount Everest is 5.5 miles high!

Its a very thin layer of air we are chucking all that pollution into.

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