Not looking good for diesels in Germany

[Nicepix]

Of course we have had periods of warming and cooling throughout the history of the Earth. However those periods are measured in hundreds of thousands of years. The current changes of temperature are happening at a period of tens of years. It is the enormous difference in these timescales that is really worrying, and the Earth cannot possibly recover in these short timescales.

I might be thick. But that graph does not show anything that hasn't happened before. How do you come to the conclusion that the changes now are accelerated?

 

[thebriars]

I might be thick. But that graph does not show anything that hasn't happened before. How do you come to the conclusion that the changes now are accelerated?

The graph shows the timescale for ice ages, typically about 75,000 years. Data today shows a very rapid warming compared to that. It has changed over 1 degree in the last 100 years, that would be over a 750 degree change in the last 75,000 years, yet the graph shows a maximum change of just 25 degrees.

 

[Nicepix]

The graph shows the timescale for ice ages, typically about 75,000 years. Data today shows a very rapid warming compared to that. It has changed over 1 degree in the last 100 years, that would be over a 750 degree change in the last 75,000 years, yet the graph shows a maximum change of just 25 degrees.

But it isn't a continuous gradient. In recent years and in the past there have been several fluctuations within a short time frame.

 

[robnchris]

The graph shows the timescale for ice ages, typically about 75,000 years. Data today shows a very rapid warming compared to that. It has changed over 1 degree in the last 100 years, that would be over a 750 degree change in the last 75,000 years, yet the graph shows a maximum change of just 25 degrees.

Also true that there is non so blind than those that don't want to see.

There isn't and never has been anything as amazing as man's own stupidity, the most dangerous animal on this planet.

 

[Ivory55]

Nice theory. But again no evidence, just opinion.

Given that cars are bought from the same places whether they are diesel or petrol. Fuel whether it is diesel or petrol comes from the same refineries and sold by the same companies. And taxes, whether they are on diesel or petrol are collected by HMCR I'm really struggling to see where the political corruption that you allege is and who it benefits?

There is no doubt that government policy has caused the diesel boom, but I'm still waiting for you to show the evidence for your allegations that government ministers steered the policy for their own ends.

Well that’s my opinion. Any way you live in France so what goes on in the uk is nothing that do with you so you need not worry.

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[Nicepix]

Well that’s my opinion. Any way you live in France so what goes on in the uk is nothing that do with you so you need not worry.

This is just a convenient get out for you when you make allegations that you cannot give any proof of and are put on the spot.

Of course I have an interest in this. I am British, paid income tax on earnings for almost 40 years and still pay my income taxes on pensions in the UK, so have as much right as you do to form an opinion.

Your argument simply does not stand up. End of.

 

[The Wino]

This is just a convenient get out for you when you make allegations that you cannot give any proof of and are put on the spot.

Of course I have an interest in this. I am British, paid income tax on earnings for almost 40 years and still pay my income taxes on pensions in the UK, so have as much right as you do to form an opinion.

Your argument simply does not stand up. End of.

The problem is a lot on here can't see past their own narrow view from their own country thats why you are getting criticised. The effect of pollution is local national and global there are just a lot of selfish people who don't give a monkeys as long as they are ok in the short term like the protesters in France

 

[Nicepix]

The problem is a lot on here can't see past their own narrow view from their own country thats why you are getting criticised. The effect of pollution is local national and global there are just a lot of selfish people who don't give a monkeys as long as they are ok in the short term like the protesters in France

Some people prefer to attack the person when they can't win the argument. It is quite a common tactic.

As you say the problem is global, but just to put the Gilet Jaunes protest into context; this is about more than taxing fuel. Out here where I live the only buses for 50km are school buses. Two of the the three local town have a rail line, but only one has a train service of sorts. Four to five trains a day go each way to the city centre which is nowhere near the retail parks that have been built on the outskirts specifically for better car driver's access. The other town with a rail line has been without a service for almost 12 months due to repair work.

I cover a 60km diameter range and only know two villages that are equipped with electric charging points for vehicle. The nearest supermarkets to us are 12km away and there are no other shops barring two or three boulangeries around 6 - 8km away. We country folk need cars as there are no alternative means of transport.

Many of the people who live around here are elderly or if young, are poor. Many of the elderly car owners have vehicles that they bought while they were still working and had disposable income. If their ancient cars are forced off the roads by Crit' Air or other regulations they simply cannot afford to buy a new technology vehicle. Because that would be the only option; not a 3 or 4 year old car as their days will be numbered too. Same with the young folk. They need cars to get to work and haven't earned enough to buy a new hybrid.

I work part time self-employed for pocket money. I drive a 2003 diesel Berlingo van and go through a tankful of fuel every 7 - 10 days. I am paying tax in France on those earnings but if fuel goes up any more I will simply stop working. I have my private pension so I won't starve but the country will lose my taxes on earnings and on the fuel. A lot of other people will also have to stop working and their taxes will be lost, plus they will create a burden on the system.

These neighbours of mine are facing multiple attacks on their lives. The lower speed limits mean longer journey times, new Controle Technique regulations are forcing many older cars off the roads simply because it is not feasible or economical to get them through the emissions and leakage examinations. Higher fuel prices eat into their cost of living. They haven't been given any alternatives and can see the time in the near future when they will have no vehicles, no means to get to the shops and services and to rub salt into their wounds; they will have paid through their fuel taxes to bring in these measures.

Yes, the planet might need saving - I don't know. But here in rural France it seems that the country folk are being held hostage to the environmental dreams of the politicians and it must be said; the Eurocrats, because that is where a lot of the pressure to reduce emissions is coming from.

 

[Nicepix]

And you’re one of my favourite group of people. They think the uk is a s##t hole so live in another country then like to tell the people living in the uk what they should be doing.
Also just saying someone has not declared they have done nothing wrong make it ok . If you was doing something wrong you would hide it or lie.

Well, if they have done something wrong, and assuming that you alone seem to know all about it, then where is the proof that you speak of? If you can't then we'll just have to assume that it is all in your 'fertile' imagination.

 

[The Wino]

Some people prefer to attack the person when they can't win the argument. It is quite a common tactic.

As you say the problem is global, but just to put the Gilet Jaunes protest into context; this is about more than taxing fuel. Out here where I live the only buses for 50km are school buses. Two of the the three local town have a rail line, but only one has a train service of sorts. Four to five trains a day go each way to the city centre which is nowhere near the retail parks that have been built on the outskirts specifically for better car driver's access. The other town with a rail line has been without a service for almost 12 months due to repair work.

I cover a 60km diameter range and only know two villages that are equipped with electric charging points for vehicle. The nearest supermarkets to us are 12km away and there are no other shops barring two or three boulangeries around 6 - 8km away. We country folk need cars as there are no alternative means of transport.

Many of the people who live around here are elderly or if young, are poor. Many of the elderly car owners have vehicles that they bought while they were still working and had disposable income. If their ancient cars are forced off the roads by Crit' Air or other regulations they simply cannot afford to buy a new technology vehicle. Because that would be the only option; not a 3 or 4 year old car as their days will be numbered too. Same with the young folk. They need cars to get to work and haven't earned enough to buy a new hybrid.

I work part time self-employed for pocket money. I drive a 2003 diesel Berlingo van and go through a tankful of fuel every 7 - 10 days. I am paying tax in France on those earnings but if fuel goes up any more I will simply stop working. I have my private pension so I won't starve but the country will lose my taxes on earnings and on the fuel. A lot of other people will also have to stop working and their taxes will be lost, plus they will create a burden on the system.

These neighbours of mine are facing multiple attacks on their lives. The lower speed limits mean longer journey times, new Controle Technique regulations are forcing many older cars off the roads simply because it is not feasible or economical to get them through the emissions and leakage examinations. Higher fuel prices eat into their cost of living. They haven't been given any alternatives and can see the time in the near future when they will have no vehicles, no means to get to the shops and services and to rub salt into their wounds; they will have paid through their fuel taxes to bring in these measures.

Yes, the planet might need saving - I don't know. But here in rural France it seems that the country folk are being held hostage to the environmental dreams of the politicians and it must be said; the Eurocrats, because that is where a lot of the pressure to reduce emissions is coming from.

It might be that the rural population pollutes a lot more per head then than urban. If so is it right that those who choose to live in rural populations are not charged for their polluting lifestyle its a political question which needs answering

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[CazPaul]

Some people prefer to attack the person when they can't win the argument. It is quite a common tactic.

As you say the problem is global, but just to put the Gilet Jaunes protest into context; this is about more than taxing fuel. Out here where I live the only buses for 50km are school buses. Two of the the three local town have a rail line, but only one has a train service of sorts. Four to five trains a day go each way to the city centre which is nowhere near the retail parks that have been built on the outskirts specifically for better car driver's access. The other town with a rail line has been without a service for almost 12 months due to repair work.

I cover a 60km diameter range and only know two villages that are equipped with electric charging points for vehicle. The nearest supermarkets to us are 12km away and there are no other shops barring two or three boulangeries around 6 - 8km away. We country folk need cars as there are no alternative means of transport.

Many of the people who live around here are elderly or if young, are poor. Many of the elderly car owners have vehicles that they bought while they were still working and had disposable income. If their ancient cars are forced off the roads by Crit' Air or other regulations they simply cannot afford to buy a new technology vehicle. Because that would be the only option; not a 3 or 4 year old car as their days will be numbered too. Same with the young folk. They need cars to get to work and haven't earned enough to buy a new hybrid.

I work part time self-employed for pocket money. I drive a 2003 diesel Berlingo van and go through a tankful of fuel every 7 - 10 days. I am paying tax in France on those earnings but if fuel goes up any more I will simply stop working. I have my private pension so I won't starve but the country will lose my taxes on earnings and on the fuel. A lot of other people will also have to stop working and their taxes will be lost, plus they will create a burden on the system.

These neighbours of mine are facing multiple attacks on their lives. The lower speed limits mean longer journey times, new Controle Technique regulations are forcing many older cars off the roads simply because it is not feasible or economical to get them through the emissions and leakage examinations. Higher fuel prices eat into their cost of living. They haven't been given any alternatives and can see the time in the near future when they will have no vehicles, no means to get to the shops and services and to rub salt into their wounds; they will have paid through their fuel taxes to bring in these measures.

Yes, the planet might need saving - I don't know. But here in rural France it seems that the country folk are being held hostage to the environmental dreams of the politicians and it must be said; the Eurocrats, because that is where a lot of the pressure to reduce emissions is coming from.

That's the problem isn't it, the normal working man isn't thought of, a bit like raising the retirement age, yes something needs to be done but the circles I move in people cant wait to retire, can only afford to run old worthless diesel cars, have no private pension and no savings.
How will they go on with the emissions regulations and needing to get to work?

 

[The Wino]

That's the problem isn't it, the normal working man isn't thought of, a bit like raising the retirement age, yes something needs to be done but the circles I move in people cant wait to retire, can only afford to run old worthless diesel cars, have no private pension and no savings.
How will they go on with the emissions regulations and needing to get to work?

Whats the option then just keep on as now and let the young inherit it along with student debt paying tax for an increasing number of retirees while being unable to afford a house because the previous lot made a bomb when their houses went up in value?

 

[barsteward]

The whole Global Warming thing , and especially the 'premature death ' thing is so open to abuse its untrue.. How premature? well best guesses are that it is minutes, days or even weeks, maybe months but nothing that I consider can be directly attributable , like for instance smoking. As a smoker, its the risk you take, as a passive smoker its a guess

We are screwing the whole thing up trying to achieve something you cannot truly correlate to even know if it worked, because there are too many variables.

Its great to say , if you gave up drink , drugs, sex and bacon you could live to be 100, but who would want to . AND we are getting in a mess because people are living longer , we don't want that to get worse do we ?

And on top of that when you really have had enough, your not allowed help to terminate your existence no matter how degrading and miserable it is. You would however put a suffering animal to sleep humanely.

 

[Nicepix]

It might be that the rural population pollutes a lot more per head then than urban. If so is it right that those who choose to live in rural populations are not charged for their polluting lifestyle its a political question which needs answering

I think that you are missing something here.

People don't always choose to live where they do. Some were born there and were perfectly happy to stay living there due to work, family, etc. when no one thought it was a problem. And now you can't expect people en-mass to decamp from the countryside to the cities just to fit in with today's economic policy even if they could afford to. Look around you at city house prices and rentals. And consider that the country properties would at a stroke be worthless.

Totally unworkable policy and that is exactly the sort of thinking that is driving the GJ protests which if you are not aware have now spread to The Netherlands.

 

[The Wino]

I think that you are missing something here.

People don't always choose to live where they do. Some were born there and were perfectly happy to stay living there due to work, family, etc. when no one thought it was a problem. And now you can't expect people en-mass to decamp from the countryside to the cities just to fit in with today's economic policy even if they could afford to. Look around you at city house prices and rentals. And consider that the country properties would at a stroke be worthless.

Totally unworkable policy and that is exactly the sort of thinking that is driving the GJ protests which if you are not aware have now spread to The Netherlands.

So whats the solution? I can't see how to reduce emissions if the current demographics mean there is increased pollution. Maybe a longer slower solution would be to load a carbon tax on houses more than a few miles from public transport but then there will be protests saying its reducing the value of property or maybe if you are in a location where the property was held by several generations theres a reduction?

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[CazPaul]

Whats the option then just keep on as now and let the young inherit it along with student debt paying tax for an increasing number of retirees while being unable to afford a house because the previous lot made a bomb when their houses went up in value?

Probably to subsidise electric vehicles to start with so that the normal, not very well off working man can afford one.

 

[The Wino]

Probably to subsidise electric vehicles to start with so that the normal, not very well off working man can afford one.

I think electric at the moment is not quite there. I think we need to get used to the real cost of pollution electric will then be cheap. Its not that long ago in human terms that it was unusual to have a car and unheard of to have 2. I would support 30p a litre on all uel in return for free or very low cost public transport people who live in rural areas could have a subsidised fuel rate provided they accept a ban on their car being used inside areas where there is good public transport (park and ride) with anpr it could be policed. There needs to be a financial incentive to not pollute whether its a stick or carrot is up to our elected politicians.

 

[Nicepix]

So whats the solution? I can't see how to reduce emissions if the current demographics mean there is increased pollution. Maybe a longer slower solution would be to load a carbon tax on houses more than a few miles from public transport but then there will be protests saying its reducing the value of property or maybe if you are in a location where the property was held by several generations theres a reduction?

They have to offer a viable alternative - carrot not stick. And not to victimise one sector of the community.

Further to my comment above about the GJ movement manifesting itself in Holland, there have also been yellow vest protests in Germany, Belgium and Bulgaria, except they wore blue vests.

 

[The Wino]

They have to offer a viable alternative - carrot not stick. And not to victimise one sector of the community.

Further to my comment above about the GJ movement manifesting itself in Holland, there have also been yellow vest protests in Germany, Belgium and Bulgaria, except they wore blue vests.

So who pays for the carrots the people in citys who have decided to do without a car those who have bought an electric one to reduce pollution those who can't afford a car?. Sounds to me like I'm all right Pierre let someone else pay. Its a bit like when I used to see people at work who retired to the countryside then their sight was too bad to drive they would always say but I need to drive there are no busses who has the greater right the person in the countryside of the kid they run over?

 

[CazPaul]

I think electric at the moment is not quite there. I think we need to get used to the real cost of pollution electric will then be cheap. Its not that long ago in human terms that it was unusual to have a car and unheard of to have 2. I would support 30p a litre on all uel in return for free or very low cost public transport people who live in rural areas could have a subsidised fuel rate provided they accept a ban on their car being used inside areas where there is good public transport (park and ride) with anpr it could be policed. There needs to be a financial incentive to not pollute whether its a stick or carrot is up to our elected politicians.

I agree something has to be done, I am thinking about one sector I am closely connected with, CARE. Homecare workers, very low paid, travelling from client to client in their cars all day, in both cities and rural areas, its going to be really difficult for some sectors.

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[The Wino]

I agree something has to be done, I am thinking about one sector I am closely connected with, CARE. Homecare workers, very low paid, travelling from client to client in their cars all day, in both cities and rural areas, its going to be really difficult for some sectors.

It might mean there is in effect rationing of cheaper fuel for some of those key workers or it might mean a subsidy on care costs funded by the gov. from their increased revenue from fuel duty. at the moment all the politicians are afraid to grasp the nettle as it will be a vote loser unfortunately they will not put aside party politics for what they know will be important for all our futures. I think there needs to be an independent body that sets long term power generation strategy and pollution reduction policies in much the way the Bof E independently sets interest rates and nice recommend health spending its the only way to get long term policy without the pendulum effect of party politics.

 

[barsteward]

I think that you are missing something here.

People don't always choose to live where they do. Some were born there and were perfectly happy to stay living there due to work, family, etc. when no one thought it was a problem. And now you can't expect people en-mass to decamp from the countryside to the cities just to fit in with today's economic policy even if they could afford to. Look around you at city house prices and rentals. And consider that the country properties would at a stroke be worthless.

Totally unworkable policy and that is exactly the sort of thinking that is driving the GJ protests which if you are not aware have now spread to The Netherlands.

And we in Britain have a perfect example, we lived in rural areas, we worked in rural areas, we generated profit in local and national areas......we have been forced out of our rural areas forced to travel for work....ohh the list is endless and all the time there is an endless stream of people from all over the world passing through "poor old France and many other nations" to get to an already sinking island. Please please!! feel free to welcome all the extra people into your idyllic countryside so that the cost can be shared (per capita).....I'm sure the cost of fuel will become more competitive as will the house prices and the local councils will be able to afford more schools and hospital services, win win
apart from the fact that you will no longer live in you rural countryside retreat, you will live with one foot space between you and your neighbour.

 

[CazPaul]

Good god, anybody reading the last few pages with an older motorhome may have killed themselves by the morning.

 

[The Wino]

And we in Britain have a perfect example, we lived in rural areas, we worked in rural areas, we generated profit in local and national areas......we have been forced out of our rural areas forced to travel for work....ohh the list is endless and all the time there is an endless stream of people from all over the world passing through "poor old France and many other nations" to get to an already sinking island. Please please!! feel free to welcome all the extra people into your idyllic countryside so that the cost can be shared (per capita).....I'm sure the cost of fuel will become more competitive as will the house prices and the local councils will be able to afford more schools and hospital services, win win
apart from the fact that you will no longer live in you rural countryside retreat, you will live with one foot space between you and your neighbour.

Just why do you think all those people are travelling through France to get here? We could tomorrow set regulations on new arrivals here to regulate migration but the fact non-eu migration is rising and EU migration is falling seems to have escaped totally the attention of the followers of Farage. Its yet another example of people looking at the failings (if you think migration is a bad thing and I don't necessarily agree) in our country and blaming them on someone else.

 

[The Wino]

Good god, anybody reading the last few pages with an older motorhome may have killed themselves by the morning.

At the average mileages covered t won't be a huge impact but there would be when the same applies to domestic heating

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[CazPaul]

This is what Mercedes will have on sale in about a year from now, 2 versions of the esprinter van, only available in the MWB 5.91 metres. wow, what a range.

''The three-battery version has a capacity of 41.4kWh, giving a range of 70 miles and requires around six hours to rehcarge on a 7kWh connection. Maximum payload is 1,040kg.

Opt for the four-battery eSprinter with a 55.2kWh capacity and you'll have a range of 93miles, but it requires eight hours for a full recharge on the same 7kWh connection. Payload drops to 900kg due to the weight of the fourth battery.

Load volume for both versions is 10.5 cubic metres''

 

[CazPaul]

At the average mileages covered t won't be a huge impact but there would be when the same applies to domestic heating

It will be a huge impact if you cant drive the bugger anywhere though.

 

[The Wino]

It will be a huge impact if you cant drive the bugger anywhere though.

I am really in favour of increasing fuel prices rather than banning . I know a lot will say the rich will not be affected but thats true of everything!!. Increasing fuel costs directly encouraged less fuel use domestic and vehicle and in industry

 

[CazPaul]

I am really in favour of increasing fuel prices rather than banning . I know a lot will say the rich will not be affected but thats true of everything!!. Increasing fuel costs directly encouraged less fuel use domestic and vehicle and in industry

This may sound really selfish but I am in favour of being able to afford getting to work as I need a car to do so, travelling to various places each day. If they just increase the fuel prices it will really affect people getting to work unless it is subsidised in some way.

 

[gus-lopez]

Some people prefer to attack the person when they can't win the argument. It is quite a common tactic.

As you say the problem is global, but just to put the Gilet Jaunes protest into context; this is about more than taxing fuel. Out here where I live the only buses for 50km are school buses. Two of the the three local town have a rail line, but only one has a train service of sorts. Four to five trains a day go each way to the city centre which is nowhere near the retail parks that have been built on the outskirts specifically for better car driver's access. The other town with a rail line has been without a service for almost 12 months due to repair work.

I cover a 60km diameter range and only know two villages that are equipped with electric charging points for vehicle. The nearest supermarkets to us are 12km away and there are no other shops barring two or three boulangeries around 6 - 8km away. We country folk need cars as there are no alternative means of transport.

Many of the people who live around here are elderly or if young, are poor. Many of the elderly car owners have vehicles that they bought while they were still working and had disposable income. If their ancient cars are forced off the roads by Crit' Air or other regulations they simply cannot afford to buy a new technology vehicle. Because that would be the only option; not a 3 or 4 year old car as their days will be numbered too. Same with the young folk. They need cars to get to work and haven't earned enough to buy a new hybrid.

I work part time self-employed for pocket money. I drive a 2003 diesel Berlingo van and go through a tankful of fuel every 7 - 10 days. I am paying tax in France on those earnings but if fuel goes up any more I will simply stop working. I have my private pension so I won't starve but the country will lose my taxes on earnings and on the fuel. A lot of other people will also have to stop working and their taxes will be lost, plus they will create a burden on the system.

These neighbours of mine are facing multiple attacks on their lives. The lower speed limits mean longer journey times, new Controle Technique regulations are forcing many older cars off the roads simply because it is not feasible or economical to get them through the emissions and leakage examinations. Higher fuel prices eat into their cost of living. They haven't been given any alternatives and can see the time in the near future when they will have no vehicles, no means to get to the shops and services and to rub salt into their wounds; they will have paid through their fuel taxes to bring in these measures.

Yes, the planet might need saving - I don't know. But here in rural France it seems that the country folk are being held hostage to the environmental dreams of the politicians and it must be said; the Eurocrats, because that is where a lot of the pressure to reduce emissions is coming from.

It sounds far worse than the UK & should have been addressed years ago along with the stupid early retirement allowed in many positions.

unfortunately they will not put aside party politics for what they know will be important for all our futures.

They have never done that, nor will they ever. If they had done in other areas & especially with the north sea oil the Uk would be in as good a position as Norway.As @Ivory55 pointed out politicians in any country will always put the party second after they have looked after themselves. The populace & country are merely a means to there ends.

At the average mileages covered t won't be a huge impact but there would be when the same applies to domestic heating

That one has lost me ? Are we talking additional taxes on domestic or what ?

requires around six hours to rehcarge on a 7kWh connection.

& here we are in Spain with a complete phase out & nothing but electric allowed from 2050 & the usual house supply is 5kw .That's going to work well ? I've never seen a car charging point anywhere in spain except the odd Tesla installation.
You also have to remember that here in what is termed as the 'campo' , countryside , if you construct any type of building, for whatever purpose be it agricultural, engineering, vegetable or fruit production/packaging, you have no right to an electricity supply. You have to install solar /generators /whatever.
As far as I can see there is no joined up thinking from anyone & they are all kicking the problem down the line & have been doing the same for years & now we are in a situation where something needs to be done but no one has a clue.

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