No Holidays abroad Allowed

[The Wino]

Or you could just say to border control, don't allow them to leave?

I don't think thats enough as the numbers could be a problem a lot better to deter anyone without a good reason trying to travel in the first place.

 

[MITHRANDIR]

Isn't that the point though to be a deterrent it has to be extreme at £50 most people would just pay it, at £500 some would at £5000 a lot less.

If a deterrent is needed, then doesn't that point to mass rule breaking, what about border control? what are they for?

 

[MITHRANDIR]

I don't think thats enough as the numbers could be a problem a lot better to deter anyone without a good reason trying to travel in the first place.

True, but if "they" arrive en masse at our borders clearly intent on breaking the rules, ban them from traveling internationally for say 12 months, surely that would be enough?

 

[ADJF]

There is a huge danger here of the whole population becoming germaphobics. Where are we as a United Kingdom taking this now? Even when you can travel and with inevitable further micro control of our lives do we get to a stage where you get tested for every known virus at the border, there are plenty of cases of people bringing back all sorts of viruses when returning from holiday....clamidia, syphilis from a week of clubbing in Magaluf, Benidorm, Ibiza, Canaries etc as a start.

Lets just open up....else this will never end...get on with life

 

[The Wino]

True, but if "they" arrive en masse at our borders clearly intent on breaking the rules, ban them from traveling internationally for say 12 months, surely that would be enough?

I think too many might think at the moment I'm unlikely to travel again this year anyway I'll give it a try. I think 10 years with no passeport would focus anyones mind even people to whom £5k is an average week away.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[funflair]

Or you could just say to border control, don't allow them to leave?

That would be changing the role of the border force to judge and jury on what constitutes a reasonable excuse to travel.

 

[funflair]

If a deterrent is needed, then doesn't that point to mass rule breaking, what about border control? what are they for?

People will break the rules its only a deterrent that stops them/us.

 

[MITHRANDIR]

That would be changing the role of the border force to judge and jury on what constitutes a reasonable excuse to travel.

Not at all, they would be following uk law, like they do now.

 

[Gary217]

There is a huge danger here of the whole population becoming germaphobics. Where are we as a United Kingdom taking this now? Even when you can travel and with inevitable further micro control of our lives do we get to a stage where you get tested for every known virus at the border, there are plenty of cases of people bringing back all sorts of viruses when returning from holiday....clamidia, syphilis from a week of clubbing in Magaluf, Benidorm, Ibiza, Canaries etc as a start.

Lets just open up....else this will never end...get on with life

If we were talking about something akin to the viruses you mention or even flu then I would agree with you but we aren't. Covid causes such bad illness in so many people it does swamp health systems; the evidence is visible all over the world with hospitals overcrowded in so many places. This is a strange disease, very new, very virulent, very debilitating and very deadly and although we have vaccines the world is not yet in control of it as the mutations are happening with potential neutralising of the vaccines' effectiveness. It has taken months of sacrifice to get our numbers down, it took days for the last surge to occur.
For all these reasons we have to take extreme care until we have enough effective medicine to prevent another major upsurge, and if it means controls on our lives it has to be. I'm as frustrated as anyone not to be heading off into Europe this year for the second year running but I understand the reasons I shouldn't. Reasons include the saving of lives, preventing long-term illness and also to give NHS staff a break - our daughter is front-line NHS and all she wants is a few days off to recuperate, she's not whinging about not being able to go off in the sun (although she and her colleagues are the ones who deserve to!).
Obviously all this is not helped by having such an incompetent and erratic government in this country who build up our hopes only to then dash them a bit later (have xmas/don't have Xmas; open schools/don't open schools; no vaccine passports/vaccine passports now under consideration; keep borders open/fine you £5K; send people to jail for 10 years/oops, lets forget that...) so from that perspective I can understand your frustration but this is so big - it's crippled the world - we have to accept live is not what is was 15 months ago and won't be for quite a while.

 

[MITHRANDIR]

point 1, no idea, but there is a real danger of that happening in my view
point 2, law, uk signed up to this in 1958, i think,
If you are going to stop people moving around then it should be ALL the people, which it clearly isn't.
I get your point about eyam, but that was 1665, not 2021, eyam's people made the choice themselves, rightly.

Correction, ratified in 1951, came into force 1953 in the UK.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[suavecarve]

I would use the spreading of Bubonic Plague in 1665 and the town of Eyam in Derbyshire as perfect example of why people should NOT be allowed to move around.

Whilst admiring their selfless act, to stay in, "lockdown" themselves and not have anybody in or out, the success of this is always going to be a matter of opinion.

50-80% death rate versus London average of 15-20% doesnt make it a great argument in my viewpoint.

 

[Coolcats]

Whilst admiring their selfless act, to stay in, "lockdown" themselves and not have anybody in or out, the success of this is always going to be a matter of opinion.

50-80% death rate versus London average of 15-20% doesnt make it a great argument in my viewpoint.

No not opinion and thank goodness we live in the the era we do. We have gone beyond the dark ages and listening to Science rather than opinion is the way out of this mess. Whilst there is never certainty decisions made from evidence is always a good way to go.

 

[robnchris]

Whilst admiring their selfless act, to stay in, "lockdown" themselves and not have anybody in or out, the success of this is always going to be a matter of opinion.

50-80% death rate versus London average of 15-20% doesnt make it a great argument in my viewpoint.

I was really referring to the traveller selling the cloth that took the plague to Eyam rather then them going into lockdown.

Stay at home safe lives isn't too bad an idea.

 

[robnchris]

point 1, no idea, but there is a real danger of that happening in my view
point 2, law, uk signed up to this in 1958, i think,
If you are going to stop people moving around then it should be ALL the people, which it clearly isn't.
I get your point about eyam, but that was 1665, not 2021, eyam's people made the choice themselves, rightly.

I agree 100% with you that travel restrictions should apply to all, I would have from the onset have made it law that if you didn't want to wear a mask for whatever reasons then you stay at home and someone will do your shopping for you.

 

[NorthernSoul]

What I don't understand is why there is all this attention on stopping people leaving the UK. That act itself doesn't bring new variants into the UK. It's people coming back into the UK that will bring new variants in. So if there's a need to stop new variants coming into the country why not have a rigorous quarantine regime for people coming back, paid for by the people travelling? Two weeks in an isolated and controlled location with regular testing, cost £2-£3k per person. Then let people choose what they want to do. And also let other countries choose whether they will accept travelers from the UK.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[MITHRANDIR]

What I don't understand is why there is all this attention on stopping people leaving the UK. That act itself doesn't bring new variants into the UK. It's people coming back into the UK that will bring new variants in. So if there's a need to stop new variants coming into the country why not have a rigorous quarantine regime for people coming back, paid for by the people travelling? Two weeks in an isolated and controlled location with regular testing, cost £2-£3k per person. Then let people choose what they want to do. And also let other countries choose whether they will accept travelers from the UK.

Agree almost entirely........

 

[MITHRANDIR]

No not opinion and thank goodness we live in the the era we do. We have gone beyond the dark ages and listening to Science rather than opinion is the way out of this mess. Whilst there is never certainty decisions made from evidence is always a good way to go.

But that's part of the problem, not all scientists agree...

 

[suavecarve]

I was really referring to the traveller selling the cloth that took the plague to Eyam rather then them going into lockdown.

Stay at home safe lives isn't too bad an idea.

The equivalent of stopping the travelling before the pandemic arrives ?

That wouldnt have worked. If it were going to work, in theory, what date would we have stopped the travelling salesperson/incoming flights and closed our borders to prevent it ?
Once it is here, if we were to follow Eyam, and each town/village did the same once there was a case, it is a self imposed lockdown of a year plus.

I think what they did was a brilliant selfless act which needs admiration, but that is not an example of what we should be doing now.

Keeping safe, but travelling to work and back (which wouldnt have been possible under Eyam's rules)

Best regards

 

[suavecarve]

No not opinion

I think it was a good idea at the time, I presume you do.
Hindsight says to me, based upon the figures, it might not have been a good idea, and that is my opinion, which I suspect is different to yours. I think that if every village shut down like Eyam upon an infection and had 80% death rate then that would be a bad thing. I think that if every village shut down before the travelling salesman turned up would be overtly cautious (but it may have been right)
A difference of opinions, unless you can show me where my opinion is incorrect, it is a matter of opinions.

I still fully respect what they did

 

[MITHRANDIR]

In my view there would be nothing wrong with letting people leave, zero risk there if, the other countries allow, upon return a strict proportionate quarantine, depending on current infections, at your home address, which was policed properly, break the rules on quarantine and go to prison.
Surely that would be enough of a deterrent for 99% of people?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[jongood]

But what would have happened to the hospitals and the NHS if we hadn't had the lockdown, many hit critical levels even with the measures in place.

Different method, matter of opinion which one would have had the biggest effect on the NHS .
Imo NHs pressure is now becoming more an issue of strategy and management rather than crisis.

 

[Coolcats]

But that's part of the problem, not all scientists agree...

No that’s not the problem, if you look at sage and independent sage they do come to agreement or consensus in terms of the available information. If Scientists just agreed with each other there would be no progress, and I would rather listen to a epidemiologist or or a group of scientists that have been brought together to advise on a subject and who are leaders in their field than on an opinion on a social media site.

Here is a thought often in athletics you will find that it is commonly said that lactate acid is a bad thing and will stop performance yet the truth is stranger in that by understanding or measuring the lactate turn point ( the point where the body can no longer process the lactate acid) by training the turn point it can be moved so that you may have better endurance (as one example) this is where science and expertise informs practice.

Just as an aside listening in passing I heard that 3 in 10 suffered from Covid have re-admittance to hospital within 6 months and 1 in 10 are dying now I heard this in passing so not sure of the context but if true this is concerning.

 

[Janine]

No that’s not the problem, if you look at sage and independent sage they do come to agreement or consensus in terms of the available information. If Scientists just agreed with each other there would be no progress, and I would rather listen to a epidemiologist or or a group of scientists that have been brought together to advise on a subject and who are leaders in their field than on an opinion on a social media site.

Here is a thought often in athletics you will find that it is commonly said that lactate acid is a bad thing and will stop performance yet the truth is stranger in that by understanding or measuring the lactate turn point ( the point where the body can no longer process the lactate acid) by training the turn point it can be moved so that you may have better endurance (as one example) this is where science and expertise informs practice.

Just as an aside listening in passing I heard that 3 in 10 suffered from Covid have re-admittance to hospital within 6 months and 1 in 10 are dying now I heard this in passing so not sure of the context but if true this is concerning.

That's exactly why peer reviews are vital. Not all scientists will agree all of the time but they will look objectively at their peer's findings and discuss it.

 

[Coolcats]

That's exactly why peer reviews are vital. Not all scientists will agree all of the time but they will look objectively at their peer's findings and discuss it.

Absolutely spot on Janine

 

[MITHRANDIR]

No that’s not the problem, if you look at sage and independent sage they do come to agreement or consensus in terms of the available information. If Scientists just agreed with each other there would be no progress, and I would rather listen to a epidemiologist or or a group of scientists that have been brought together to advise on a subject and who are leaders in their field than on an opinion on a social media site.

Here is a thought often in athletics you will find that it is commonly said that lactate acid is a bad thing and will stop performance yet the truth is stranger in that by understanding or measuring the lactate turn point ( the point where the body can no longer process the lactate acid) by training the turn point it can be moved so that you may have better endurance (as one example) this is where science and expertise informs practice.

Just as an aside listening in passing I heard that 3 in 10 suffered from Covid have re-admittance to hospital within 6 months and 1 in 10 are dying now I heard this in passing so not sure of the context but if true this is concerning.

I take about as much notice of social media opinions as i do the man on the moon.
I am a big believer in science, but i am also wise enough to know that they are not always right.
there are many scientists who do not agree.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Coolcats]

I take about as much notice of social media opinions as i do the man on the moon.
I am a big believer in science, but i am also wise enough to know that they are not always right.
there are many scientists who do not agree.

So what do you want to do? A) listen to Sage/indie Sage which are leaders in their fields, B) peer review their work or C) agree with outliers ?

Whilst I have a science background and am able to critically review a paper, I know enough that I do not have the skills or background to say they are wrong and what they say is mainly right. The Government has chosen on occasions to either ignore said advice, Cherry pick or fully implement what these teams have been saying.

The best analogy I can make (I am sure someone else will be along soon with a better one) is like being in a plane with engines on fire, I reckon my best chance of survival would be if I had an ex RAF test Pilot at the helm rather than a Commercial trained pilot. Both can fly a plane and navigate but the way that test Pilot thinks and has been trained I reckon would be the passengers best chance of Survival.

 

[Coolcats]

The way its reported here this is to back up the existing restrictions and so should end on May 17th

Covid: £5,000 fine for people going on holiday abroad

It is due to come into force in England next week as some other lockdown restrictions are eased.

www.bbc.co.uk

Any further extension of this would be a gross infringement of our civil rights and I for one would be joining the protests.

Hmmm I think we are sleep walking in to a time when we may not be able to peacefully protest its a crime don't you know, but it does have its supporters.

Bill that curtails ability to protest in England and Wales passes second reading​

 

[MITHRANDIR]

So what do you want to do? A) listen to Sage/indie Sage which are leaders in their fields, B) peer review their work or C) agree with outliers ?

Whilst I have a science background and am able to critically review a paper, I know enough that I do not have the skills or background to say they are wrong and what they say is mainly right. The Government has chosen on occasions to either ignore said advice, Cherry pick or fully implement what these teams have been saying.

The best analogy I can make (I am sure someone else will be along soon with a better one) is like being in a plane with engines on fire, I reckon my best chance of survival would be if I had an ex RAF test Pilot at the helm rather than a Commercial trained pilot. Both can fly a plane and navigate but the way that test Pilot thinks and has been trained I reckon would be the passengers best chance of Survival

I am just saying that there is maybe another way, just because people or scientists views don't agree with yours, or as you put it "outliers" doesn't mean they should be demonised, i am not saying SAGE are wrong, far from it, but that doesn't make them or anyone else right all the time either, what is right for you is not always what is right for someone else.

"It is not whether we should open up or lock down. Rather, it is how we can break the chain of transmission"
Taken from the BMJ october 15th 2020.
Neither right nor wrong, just another point of view, written by scientists for scientists in the main.
and if i am in a plane that's engines are on fire, i'll grab me parachute!

 

[ADJF]

Meanwhile whilst we all have to stay in and we are refused holidays....Prince Charles and Camila have set off on a jolly to Greece for a few days. I hope that they have to cough up the cost of return covid tests and are placed under house arrest for 10 days post their return.

The double standards of the system in the UK is shocking

 

[Coolcats]

I am just saying that there is maybe another way, just because people or scientists views don't agree with yours, or as you put it "outliers" doesn't mean they should be demonised, i am not saying SAGE are wrong, far from it, but that doesn't make them or anyone else right all the time either, what is right for you is not always what is right for someone else.

"It is not whether we should open up or lock down. Rather, it is how we can break the chain of transmission"
Taken from the BMJ october 15th 2020.
Neither right nor wrong, just another point of view, written by scientists for scientists in the main.
and if i am in a plane that's engines are on fire, i'll grab me parachute!

I am glad you mentioned Parachutes and the BMJ, you may enjoy reading this if you have not come across it before. You could ask if you really need a Parachute after you have read the Paper

What is already known about this topic

Parachutes are widely used to prevent death and major injury after gravitational challenge Parachute use is associated with adverse effects due to failure of the intervention and iatrogenic injury Studies of free fall do not show 100% mortality

What this study adds

No randomised controlled trials of parachute use have been undertaken The basis for parachute use is purely observational, and its apparent efficacy could potentially be explained by a “healthy cohort” effect Individuals who insist that all interventions need to be validated by a randomised controlled trial need to come down to earth with a bump

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}