More evidence hydrogen fuelled vans could power future motorhomes?

[Coolcats]

No I am not anti hydrogen. Green hydrogen is going to be fantastic for things where there are no other options like Cement and Steel production. For some countries it will be a great energy storage medium. For long distance shipping and airlines it may be the only solution.
But for cars it makes no sense economically, practically or from a safety point of view.


I think I said something similar. I am not concerned about hydrogen tanks exploding. I am concerned about poor maintenance causing a leak which could build up inside of the cabin and cause a boom. Or in a garage, or many other situations where car is in an enclosed space.
Hydrogen systems will need to be maintained to an extremely high standard to ensure they are safe. I have safety concerns about people keeping their cars and doing minimal/no maintenance and it causing deaths.

I can foresee a situation where an HGV ploughs into a car rupturing the hydrogen tank and the sparks caused by the crash immediately igniting the hydrogen.


Yup I said this above.



All true. But look at the speed of combustion. Hydrogen burns incredibly fast and the rate of travel of the flame front is enough to cause major shock damage. You only need to search youtube for examples of hydrogen explosions to see the damage caused.
That video I posted above shows the problem nicely. A balloon exploding causes a bit of a bang. But the same balloon in a cardboard box makes one hell of a bang. It is the speed of the burn that is the issue. If you are not familiar look up the difference between deflagration and detonation. Hydrogen can detonate, petrol and LPG/methane/propane etc cannot except in very specific and unlikely real world conditions. Hydrogen has a broad range where it will deflagrate and a smaller but still very significant range where it will detonate. It is the detonation that is scary.

Imagine a car crash in a tunnel and the hydrogen escapes. One spark and all vehicles in the tunnel would be shot out of the tunnel like a bullet out of a gun. LPG would just cause a slow (relatively) moving fireball.

Just to re-iterate. I am not against hydrogen, and I think it should be developed using renewables to produce Green Hydrogen not the Brown stuff have have now. But I think it should be used for where it is most needed and can be handled by professionals not the morons we see on todays roads..

Goodness imagine a petrol tanker catching fire or even a service station !

Hydrogen will have its place in vehicles no argument about that it’s here now and being used. Hydrogen is being mixed in to our gas network so it’s only a matter of time before it won’t seem to be unusual.

 

[Gromett]

However converting gas turbine power stations to burn H2 is possible.

Generate H2 from renewables (excess solar/wind) and the use the H2 to power your gas turbines when its not sunny or windy. Like a big battery but without the cost of batteries

The problem there is the cost of a gas powered station. You would have to pay for it to sit idle most of the time.
Then there is the round trip efficiency. electric ->hydrogen->electric has very low efficiency.

Although I agree using some excess electric to convert to hydrogen would be fantastic as it could be used to decarbonise the steel and concrete industry very cheaply.

 

[Gromett]

True. Batteries will probably prevail but Hydrogen would be a stopgap and because you can convert gas turbines it would allow capital expense to be spread out a bit. Hydrogen generation using electrolysis is not efficient I agree but its quite cheap to set up.

It's not cheap to set up. A filling station for instance currently cost over £2M to install. This is due to the heavy duty compressor, chiller and then the storage tanks need to be a bit special when compared to an LPG tank.

 

[Gromett]

Maybe Gromett but there is serious work going in to this:

Clever engineering breeds better idiots.

So... They have to put this sticker on Diesel/Petrol pumps. Do you think the targets of this sticker will be less safe or more safe with Hydrogen?

 

[Coolcats]

So... They have to put this sticker on Diesel/Petrol pumps. Do you think the targets of this sticker will be less safe or more safe with Hydrogen?

View attachment 518511

They will do the same with electric plugs and also add don’t stick your fingers or tongue in as well. Have to say I haven’t seen those stickers on the lpg pumps maybe only adults use them

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[MitchandJenny]

Question.. Genuine not making a point or owt..
Compared to refining petrol from crude, is it more difficult ?

Genuine answer mate :- I don’t know !!
But I would like to.
Any tech wizard going to tell us ?
Mitch

 

[Markman]

Genuine answer mate :- I don’t know !!
But I would like to.
Any tech wizard going to tell us ?
Mitch

Refining petrol and diesel is complex and complicated. The middle and far east countries are still building them. One that started up in Malaysia recently cost $18 billion (from a green field site, both refinery and a petrochemical plant (to convert refinery by-products in to plastic), port infrastructure for crude offloading and product loading). A single new refinery unit (hydrocracker, catcracker or high pressure hydrodesulphurization unit) costs $1-2 billion each, or more, and that is with the main infrastructure of electricity, steam feed/product storage in place of only needing revamping, so no roads, etc.

Green H2 needs (excess) electricity only really viable when all electricity from renewables (could in theory be used as a storage option). I wouldn't have thought the plant would be much more than $1 billion anyone know?
Blue hydrogen comes from steam reforming of natural gas (so CO2 emissions) and a plant there would probably also be about $1 billion.

 

[Coolcats]

In case Gromett has not noticed Hydrogen is now powering the Olympic Flame......and a Soon a MoHo near you

 

[deleted79651]

In case Gromett has not noticed Hydrogen is now powering the Olympic Flame......and a Soon a MoHo near you

View attachment 519401

Rings of Fire, fuelled by hydrogen. Perhaps that explains why the unleaded fuel hose contains the instruction not to insert it into one's rectum ... 'Rectum?'; 'Well, it singed a few hairs ....'

Steve

 

[autorouter]

I would be a bit concerned about sitting over a tank of hydrogen at 1050psi. Wouldn't you?

How about 700 bar = 700 x 14.5 = 10150psi?

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[autorouter]

Scam, something from nothing? Better to light a candle than sit alone in the dark. If you dont understand the physics of how hydrogen can benefit the combustion process, better to say nothing than make stupid statements. Henry Ford use to say "Long as I say nothing nobody will know im stupid" If these guys were about at the time of Tesla and the first motor vehicles, they be still riding a faster horse and holding a candle. The great bard himself said it all " When ignorance is bliss its folly to be wise".

Yes, hydrogen as an additive can reduce harmful emissions from a fossil-fuel engine. In the process it can maybe make it a bit more efficient, like a better Adblue. Another advantage is that you can generate the small amount of hydrogen required by an electrolysis device that splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, so no need for tanks of special additive, just add water.

However people on here get the impression you are suggesting that a small electrolysis device running from an engine alternator can power the engine and thus reduce fossil fuel consumption to near zero. If you are suggesting that, then it is indeed a scam.

 

[SteveRallye]

This may have been posted on here previously but if anyone can remember there was a firm advertising in the enroute (now CAMC mag ) I think from the Hereford area, to convert your diesel powered M/H to Hydrogen about 10 years ago. I think it cost around £10,000 at the time but the ads eventually stopped appearing. So it has been available and possible for years, just due to cost then it was not viable at the time.

 

[Coolcats]

This may have been posted on here previously but if anyone can remember there was a firm advertising in the enroute (now CAMC mag ) I think from the Hereford area, to convert your diesel powered M/H to Hydrogen about 10 years ago. I think it cost around £10,000 at the time but the ads eventually stopped appearing. So it has been available and possible for years, just due to cost then it was not viable at the time.

Sometimes companies are before there time if you think about EV’s Milk floats were battery powered but lead acid and now with the current battery type we can see they are more viable.

 

[Gromett]

Toyota bet wrong on EVs, so now it’s lobbying to slow the transition

Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen.

arstechnica.com

 

[Gromett]

Temporarily going back to hydrogen explosions.. Government just got results back of an independent study.

4 times as many explosions and more damage when it does go pop.

Hydrogen for home heating could cause four times as many explosions and injuries than gas boilers, according to a government-backed study.
Hydrogen is being trialled at test sites across the UK to assess whether it can safely be used as a potential green replacement for natural gas to heat homes.
But a safety assessment carried out by consultants Arup on behalf of the business department found that hydrogen in homes could cause 65 injuries or fatalities a year, and 39 explosions in the kitchen or entire ground floor, compared to 17 individuals injured and nine explosions for natural gas.
Hydrogen is lighter and more flammable than natural gas, which is mostly methane, and has never been used in a gas grid supply to homes.

Commenting on the study, Dr Richard Lowes, an energy expert at the University of Exeter, said hydrogen was “deeply uncertain in many ways”.
“Hydrogen is quite simply more explosive than the current gas in our pipes and therefore, more likely to cause damage if it goes wrong,” he said.

Hydrogen boilers could cause four times as many explosions as gas

Safety fears as government-backed assessment finds the alternative fuel could spark as many as 39 blasts a year

www.telegraph.co.uk

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[Coolcats]

Temporarily going back to hydrogen explosions.. Government just got results back of an independent study.

4 times as many explosions and more damage when it does go pop.

Hydrogen boilers could cause four times as many explosions as gas

Safety fears as government-backed assessment finds the alternative fuel could spark as many as 39 blasts a year

www.telegraph.co.uk

65 Fatalities eh I can't read all the blurb

Where there is stored or used electrical energy there is danger

Electrical Safety First Core Data Set - England​

I suspect the people who have been the unfortunate victims of electrical fires who have injuries or relatives killed will not see Electricity as 'safe'

From Domestic Appliance Fires dataset, Home Office. Electrical Safety First Methodology Applied.

All domestic appliance fires 2018-2019: 10,111

All domestic appliance fires 2014-2019: 53,387

Total Injuries/Fatalities attributed to domestic appliances : 1,228

 

[busby]

Not if it’s stored safely, ever wonderd what would happen if the lift failed at the 30th floor or your brakes failed at 70 mph ?

If the lift failed at the 30th floor it would not drop far because they are fitted with a fail safe device.BUSBY.

 

[Coolcats]

And hydrogen will explode (ignite) at almost any % mix with air. LPG will not. I have quoted this before here but

If you leak LPG (Butane or Propane) you would be slightly unlucky if you caught fire
If you leak H2 - it would be a miracle if you did not catch fire

My hydrogen generator leaked and nothing happened

 

[busby]

Temporarily going back to hydrogen explosions.. Government just got results back of an independent study.

4 times as many explosions and more damage when it does go pop.

Hydrogen boilers could cause four times as many explosions as gas

Safety fears as government-backed assessment finds the alternative fuel could spark as many as 39 blasts a year

www.telegraph.co.uk

We won't have to worry about heating boilers soon,,have you not heard of Global Warming. BUSBY.

 

[Coolcats]

If the lift failed at the 30th floor it would not drop far because they are fitted with a fail safe device.BUSBY.

Spoilsport your supposed to have watch the disaster movies but if the floor in that lift failed the lift car would stay where it is and just like a Bond villains victim you would just free fall to eternity

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[Coolcats]

Temporarily going back to hydrogen explosions.. Government just got results back of an independent study.

4 times as many explosions and more damage when it does go pop.

Hydrogen boilers could cause four times as many explosions as gas

Safety fears as government-backed assessment finds the alternative fuel could spark as many as 39 blasts a year

www.telegraph.co.uk

Dr Richard Lowes is not presenting Hydrogen in the same certain black and white negative way that you appear to portray it He recognises the challenges and difficulties but also says it has an important potential role in a low carbon energy system I didn't make it up, there is serious work being undertaken regarding Hydrogen within commercial organisations and all are worth a listen too.

 

[Gromett]

Dr Richard Lowes is not presenting Hydrogen in the same certain black and white negative way that you appear to portray it He recognises the challenges and difficulties but also says it has an important potential role in a low carbon energy system I didn't make it up, there is serious work being undertaken regarding Hydrogen within commercial organisations and all are worth a listen too.

I agree with him, in fact I would go further than him. He says it is a potential role. I say it is an essential role. Just not for heating the home nor for cars or light vans and In the UK not even for heavy goods.

You keep trying to portray me as being anti hydrogen. I am not, it has some extremely important roles in the future.

 

[Coolcats]

I agree with him, in fact I would go further than him. He says it is a potential role. I say it is an essential role. Just not for heating the home nor for cars or light vans and In the UK not even for heavy goods.

You keep trying to portray me as being anti hydrogen. I am not, it has some extremely important roles in the future.

It is an energy source Gromett, just as people were so certain that Batteries would never power vehicles yet they can and do.......as I say Time will tell and how about posting the positive stories for Hydrogen if your saying it has a place.....

Temporarily going back to hydrogen explosions.. Government just got results back of an independent study.

4 times as many explosions and more damage when it does go pop.

Hydrogen boilers could cause four times as many explosions as gas

Safety fears as government-backed assessment finds the alternative fuel could spark as many as 39 blasts a year

www.telegraph.co.uk

I tell you what is more dangerous than Hydrogen boilers here is example 1 example 2 clean energy that's what is more dangerous....

 

[Augusta08]

Don't worry HMG hasn't heard of Fischer-Tropsch yet, so all this talk about Hydrogen power is premature.

With Fischer-Tropsch we can produce clean diesel from Carbon-Monoxide and Bio-waste. Mow the lawn and fill the tank

 

[gpat]

My hydrogen generator leaked and nothing happened

Do you think that's a reassuring thing to hear?

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[Coolcats]

Do you think that's a reassuring thing to hear?

Yup because it dispels the myth that Hydrogen will immediately explode or catch fire when exposed to air.

 

[MitchandJenny]

JCB have an engine running non-stop on Hydrogen at the moment.
4.8 ltr diesel I think.
All they did was fit a different cylinder head.
Mitch.

 

[nicholsong]

Spoilsport your supposed to have watch the disaster movies but if the floor in that lift failed the lift car would stay where it is and just like a Bond villains victim you would just free fall to eternity

I would go for that - if I can take my Darling Basia with me.

Sounds better than dying.

Geoff

 

[tonyidle]

Yup because it dispels the myth that Hydrogen will immediately explode or catch fire when exposed to air.

Very few chemicals achieve spontaneous combustion. However hydrogen is very easy to ignite and pretty fearsome once lit. See my thread re an exploding battery from a year or two ago .

 

[Gromett]

how about posting the positive stories for Hydrogen if your saying it has a place.....

I have did you miss them. I posted about the 2 steel plants that have come online and run on hydrogen rather than coke/coal/gas.

‘World first’ as hydrogen used to power commercial steel production | Recharge

Trial at a commercial steel mill in Sweden shows that clean-burning H2 can replace the fossil fuels currently used to produce high-temperature heat

www.rechargenews.com

I have posted others as well.

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