More evidence hydrogen fuelled vans could power future motorhomes?

[ElliesBoss]

Interesting comments here but from a commercial point of view it presumably must be a goer or why would Shell amongst others be installing hydrogen storage and pumps at their filling station?

 

[Coolcats]

All stored energy can fail and end in an explosion

How many cars are driving around without an MOT at the moment? How many of these hydrogen death traps will end up on the road after 10-15 years

Probably less than Unmaintained iMOT’d battery cars and ICE vehicles

 

[Gromett]

Interesting comments here but from a commercial point of view it presumably must be a goer or why would Shell amongst others be installing hydrogen storage and pumps at their filling station?

Because they are about to become obsolete. They want hydrogen to be the next big thing because it means they will still be in the gas business where they have infrastructure already.
Hydrogen is currently made by steam reforming of natural gas.

You will also notice they are installing lots of EV battery chargers. Hedging their bets for when they can no longer sell Diesel and Petrol.

 

[knickam]

I knew it used fractional distillation but didn't know the practical details with respect to fossil fuels. You got me curious and had to look into it.
This was probably the mid way point video. It had enough detail to explain the process without getting too technical.

Here is what I got from my research. The process is pretty straight forward. Although it requires high temperatures and reasonable pressures it is not difficult and individual stages can be replicated by a competent DIY'er. Do a youtube search for making ethanol at home from plastic waste.

Hydrogen on the other hand is easier to make in it's gaseous form. But the compression and chilling stages required to make it into a usable fuel for cars is highly specialised and incredibly dangerous for the home gamer. You can't use a normal fridge compressor for instance and the chiller stage needs to be able to handle hydrogen which is not as simple as you would think. The extreme cold temperatures makes things like seals and metal very brittle and hydrogen embrittlement is a serious issue.

I personally would be happier having a crack (get it?) at making petrol at home rather then compressed/chilled hydrogen.

Anyway, here is the video. An interesting 10 minutes

You only need to store hydrogen at extremely low temperatures if you are storing it as a liquid.

The pressures being quoted here are for compresses hydrogen in a gas state.
There is cooling required to remove the heat generated when the hydrogen is compressed.

We used 200 bar hydrogen bottles for gas analysis at work.

 

[Gromett]

You only need to store hydrogen at extremely low temperatures if you are storing it as a liquid.

The pressures being quoted here are for compresses hydrogen in a gas state.
There is cooling required to remove the heat generated when the hydrogen is compressed.

We used 200 bar hydrogen bottles for gas analysis at work.

Not sure what you point is? You need a chiller to compress hydrogen due to the heat generated during the compression process.
There are two components to this, chilling the compressor which can be done using a normal thermal transfer process such as liquid cooling through a radiator.
But you also need to pre-cool the hydrogen when using it in a filling station. Lots of information around this on the net if you are interested.

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review16/pd107_elgowainy_2016_o.pdf

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[Coolcats]

Still a good reason not to want to sit on it .

This started off as a tongue in cheek remark and as- from the posts, it seems I'm less averse to risk than many on here I would probably want to try a hydrogen car but would rather have the tank jettisonable like on an airplane.

An ejection seat may help

 

[Coolcats]

That was an LPG boom, Hydrogen has a magnitude more speed when it goes pop.

I think you are underestimating the stupidity of people. They drive around with failed brakes, bald tyres to the point the threads are showing. What makes you think they will consider the safety of their hydrogen system?

The same way safety is built into fuel tanks in petrol cars in other words safety can be engineered in. How many people fly in aircraft that you would not leave them in charge of your cat, safety is built in to the aircraft to help avoid accidents and many other systems that are in the public domain.

 

[Gromett]

The same way safety is built into fuel tanks in petrol cars in other words safety can be engineered in. How many people fly in aircraft that you would not leave them in charge of your cat, safety is built in to the aircraft to help avoid accidents and many other systems that are in the public domain.

Only if well maintained. A petrol car is not at risk of blowing up if poorly maintained. No idea where aircraft come into it? But if you insist. Look at a lot of aircraft crashes globally and a fair percentage of them are down to poor maintenance or poor maintenance procedures.

 

[knickam]

Not sure what you point is? You need a chiller to compress hydrogen due to the heat generated during the compression process.
There are two components to this, chilling the compressor which can be done using a normal thermal transfer process such as liquid cooling through a radiator.
But you also need to pre-cool the hydrogen when using it in a filling station. Lots of information around this on the net if you are interested.

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review16/pd107_elgowainy_2016_o.pdf

Yes you are correct and I believe they can operate at -40degC or so.
Nothing like the -250degC required for liquid storage at atmospheric pressure which I thought you were talking about when you describe it as extremely cold temperatures

-40degC is very cold but hardly extreme.

 

[Coolcats]

Only if well maintained. A petrol car is not at risk of blowing up if poorly maintained.

Having had many company cars I had one that was spilling fuel the kind security guy placed sandbags along where the fuel was leaking. One spark and the whole thing could have gone, this was a well maintained car it just sprung a leak.

Battery cars may not leak fuel but when they catch fire they are hard to extinguish, it seems that the thing to do is submerge the whole vehicle into a water tank.

Any stored energy system has the potential to catch fire or explode I believe the risks for hydrogen are being over exaggerated.

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[Dark_Comet]

Omg you really couldnt make this up. The mechanical loss from an engine to produce 15 to 25 amps from an alternator is so small it couldnt be measured. What load is on the engine to drive an AC compressor for instance. Hydrogen is the most abundant element on the planet. Add it to the combustion mix and the result is amazing. There is an old saying that a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing and listening to some of the comments displays exactly that. In another motorhome forum, I smiled reading the endeavours of people to eek out a little more power from their engine. Spending many hundereds, 1000s to fit a bigger lump. Cutting lumps out of chassis, making up bigger engine mounts, modifying gear linkage etc etc. To end up with another smoky lump that rattles the bejasus out of the vehicle. A decent dry cell HHO generator costs about £200 and can be fitted in an hour and the results is a total win win. But those that dont have a clue are all mixed up and confused about perpetual motion, not what were discussing, the huge mechanical loss to produce 15 to 25 amps, not true as it couldnt be measured, AC compressor presents a huge mechanical loss not to mention all the other ancillaries the engine has to turn.

 

[Coolcats]

But a little hydrogen goes a very, very long way when it comes to going boom. Now imagine instead of a cardboard box it was the inside of your car with a lot more hydrogen. One little leak

Maybe Gromett but there is serious work going in to this:

ISO 19881:2018​

Gaseous hydrogen — Land vehicle fuel containers​

This document contains requirements for the material, design, manufacture, marking and testing of serially produced, refillable containers intended only for the storage of compressed hydrogen gas for land vehicle operation. These containers

a) are permanently attached to the vehicle,

b) have a capacity of up to 1 000 l water capacity, and

c) have a nominal working pressure that does not exceed 70 MPa.

The scope of this document is limited to fuel containers containing fuel cell grade hydrogen according to ISO 14687 for fuel cell land vehicles and Grade A or better hydrogen as per ISO 14687 for internal combustion engine land vehicles. This document also contains requirements for hydrogen fuel containers acceptable for use on-board light duty vehicles, heavy duty vehicles and industrial powered trucks such as forklifts and other material handling vehicles.

And here is another well thought through document

Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Hydrogen Tools Portal (2011). Assessment of safety for hydrogen fuel cell vehicle

 

[tonyidle]

Omg you really couldnt make this up. The mechanical loss from an engine to produce 15 to 25 amps from an alternator is so small it couldnt be measured. What load is on the engine to drive an AC compressor for instance. Hydrogen is the most abundant element on the planet. Add it to the combustion mix and the result is amazing. There is an old saying that a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing and listening to some of the comments displays exactly that. In another motorhome forum, I smiled reading the endeavours of people to eek out a little more power from their engine. Spending many hundereds, 1000s to fit a bigger lump. Cutting lumps out of chassis, making up bigger engine mounts, modifying gear linkage etc etc. To end up with another smoky lump that rattles the bejasus out of the vehicle. A decent dry cell HHO generator costs about £200 and can be fitted in an hour and the results is a total win win. But those that dont have a clue are all mixed up and confused about perpetual motion, not what were discussing, the huge mechanical loss to produce 15 to 25 amps, not true as it couldnt be measured, AC compressor presents a huge mechanical loss not to mention all the other ancillaries the engine has to turn.

The discussion started as relating to alternative fuels and you appeared to suggest HHO as a contender. If it is simply added to an existing hydrocarbon fuel it is not an alternative to anything. Even as an additive if it added anything (power or improved emissions) as easily and cheaply as you suggest then it would be fitted as standard.

 

[Gromett]

Maybe Gromett but there is serious work going in to this:

Maybe Coolcats but you know the expression...

Clever engineering breeds better idiots.

Or in the Software industry we have a saying...

“Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.”​

- Rick Cook

The safer the engineers make these "Storage containers" the more the idiots will think they can get away with skipping required maintenance. With hydrogen this will guarantee that something bad will happen sooner rather than later.

With a petrol car, or a battery car the outcomes are no where near as serious as if a hydrogen system fails.

 

[Coolcats]

Maybe Coolcats but you know the expression...

Clever engineering breeds better idiots.

Or in the Software industry we have a saying...

“Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.”​

- Rick Cook

The safer the engineers make these "Storage containers" the more the idiots will think they can get away with skipping required maintenance. With hydrogen this will guarantee that something bad will happen sooner rather than later.

With a petrol car, or a battery car the outcomes are no where near as serious as if a hydrogen system fails.

I get it Gromett you are anti Hydrogen and pro Battery, and this is for those with the Big Bang theory for Hydrogen.... interesting eh

"Hydrogen gas can ignite with as little as 4% air. However, if hydrogen is escaping from a bullet hole or a small fracture, it is pure hydrogen; so, the tank won’t explode due to the lack of oxygen. Unless a physical force is strong enough to crush a composites tank, it is unlikely to have an explosion.

Hydrogen burns without any flame colors, therefore, in the event of a catastrophic compress H2 tank crushing event, you won’t see a fireball. If there were an ignition point when the H2 gas has just the right oxygen during a fast tank-crushing event, there would not be an explosion (big boom). There will be a big flash of heat for a fraction of a second. No fireball from hydrogen combustion. If there were polymers close enough to the heat flash, they might burn with a coloured flame"

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[gpat]

Omg you really couldnt make this up. The mechanical loss from an engine to produce 15 to 25 amps from an alternator is so small it couldnt be measured. What load is on the engine to drive an AC compressor for instance. Hydrogen is the most abundant element on the planet. Add it to the combustion mix and the result is amazing. There is an old saying that a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing and listening to some of the comments displays exactly that. In another motorhome forum, I smiled reading the endeavours of people to eek out a little more power from their engine. Spending many hundereds, 1000s to fit a bigger lump. Cutting lumps out of chassis, making up bigger engine mounts, modifying gear linkage etc etc. To end up with another smoky lump that rattles the bejasus out of the vehicle. A decent dry cell HHO generator costs about £200 and can be fitted in an hour and the results is a total win win. But those that dont have a clue are all mixed up and confused about perpetual motion, not what were discussing, the huge mechanical loss to produce 15 to 25 amps, not true as it couldnt be measured, AC compressor presents a huge mechanical loss not to mention all the other ancillaries the engine has to turn.

You don't get owt for nowt in this world

If you think 25 amps (at what voltage) is not much then....... wow!

The best you'll get on your hydrogen production is about 80% efficiency

The best you'll get burning it and converting it to power is about 35%

That's not good science to me

 

[Gromett]

I get it Gromett you are anti Hydrogen and pro Battery, and this is for those with the Big Bang theory for Hydrogen.... interesting eh

No I am not anti hydrogen. Green hydrogen is going to be fantastic for things where there are no other options like Cement and Steel production. For some countries it will be a great energy storage medium. For long distance shipping and airlines it may be the only solution.
But for cars it makes no sense economically, practically or from a safety point of view.

"Hydrogen gas can ignite with as little as 4% air. However, if hydrogen is escaping from a bullet hole or a small fracture, it is pure hydrogen; so, the tank won’t explode due to the lack of oxygen. Unless a physical force is strong enough to crush a composites tank, it is unlikely to have an explosion.

I think I said something similar. I am not concerned about hydrogen tanks exploding. I am concerned about poor maintenance causing a leak which could build up inside of the cabin and cause a boom. Or in a garage, or many other situations where car is in an enclosed space.
Hydrogen systems will need to be maintained to an extremely high standard to ensure they are safe. I have safety concerns about people keeping their cars and doing minimal/no maintenance and it causing deaths.

I can foresee a situation where an HGV ploughs into a car rupturing the hydrogen tank and the sparks caused by the crash immediately igniting the hydrogen.

Hydrogen just adds to the excitement. Hydrogen won't burn inside the cylinder as there is no oxygen in there. It has to have escaped, and if the cylinder had gone pop due to pressure related failure the shrapnel will be quite a serious issue before you even think of getting toasted

Yup I said this above.

Hydrogen burns without any flame colors, therefore, in the event of a catastrophic compress H2 tank crushing event, you won’t see a fireball. If there were an ignition point when the H2 gas has just the right oxygen during a fast tank-crushing event, there would not be an explosion (big boom). There will be a big flash of heat for a fraction of a second. No fireball from hydrogen combustion. If there were polymers close enough to the heat flash, they might burn with a coloured flame"

All true. But look at the speed of combustion. Hydrogen burns incredibly fast and the rate of travel of the flame front is enough to cause major shock damage. You only need to search youtube for examples of hydrogen explosions to see the damage caused.
That video I posted above shows the problem nicely. A balloon exploding causes a bit of a bang. But the same balloon in a cardboard box makes one hell of a bang. It is the speed of the burn that is the issue. If you are not familiar look up the difference between deflagration and detonation. Hydrogen can detonate, petrol and LPG/methane/propane etc cannot except in very specific and unlikely real world conditions. Hydrogen has a broad range where it will deflagrate and a smaller but still very significant range where it will detonate. It is the detonation that is scary.

Imagine a car crash in a tunnel and the hydrogen escapes. One spark and all vehicles in the tunnel would be shot out of the tunnel like a bullet out of a gun. LPG would just cause a slow (relatively) moving fireball.

Just to re-iterate. I am not against hydrogen, and I think it should be developed using renewables to produce Green Hydrogen not the Brown stuff have have now. But I think it should be used for where it is most needed and can be handled by professionals not the morons we see on todays roads..

 

[Guigsy]

Interesting comments here but from a commercial point of view it presumably must be a goer or why would Shell amongst others be installing hydrogen storage and pumps at their filling station?

Necessity. It's increasingly likely that fossil fuels will disappear. They aren't going to make money on EVs because people mainly charge them at home. So hydrogen at filling stations is the best horse they've got to bet on. It might turn out to be a good bet, but it's probably also their only bet at the moment.

 

[RandallC]

It’s a lot of pressure

Pressures not the issue, its small leaks that fill a space and are explosive between 5% and 95% concentration in air. AND burns with a colourless flame so you can't see its burning/leaking.

Dare I ask how many in their school science experiments took a Birds custard tin, put a small hole in the lid and filled it with hydrogen. Making sure none leaks, carry to say a stair well and light. top of the hole. Burns quietly for a bit, but can't see its lit, best retire to a safe distance and put fingers in ears.

Yep everyone else in the building comes to look what the bang was, but because you used an custard tin the lid blew off with out any shrapnel.

So suggesting not going to be able to put an H2 car in an enclosed space, like garage/ferry/tunnel/workshop UNLESS very well ventilated, which raises a few issues. Just look at current DSEAR regulations.

However would be a great move forward if viable

 

[Markman]

Having had many company cars I had one that was spilling fuel the kind security guy placed sandbags along where the fuel was leaking. One spark and the whole thing could have gone, this was a well maintained car it just sprung a leak.

Battery cars may not leak fuel but when they catch fire they are hard to extinguish, it seems that the thing to do is submerge the whole vehicle into a water tank.

Any stored energy system has the potential to catch fire or explode I believe the risks for hydrogen are being over exaggerated.

I agree that there will be risks with storing compressed hydrogen at 700 bar but have you ever been to India and ridden in a rickshaw? Most of them use CNG (compressed natural gas) as the fuel (in an attempt to cut pollution) which is stored at about 200bar under the passenger seat:

Our Products | OEM Manufacturer from Mumbai

Mithani Group Tuk Tuk Ind 3 Wheeler Mfgs | Our Products - OEM Manufacturer of Passenger TukTuk Autorickshaw 200CC, Cargo TukTuk Autorickshaw and Passenger TukTuk Autorickshaw 215CC from Mumbai

www.tuktukind.com

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[EMS]

Now regarding the self generation of Hydrogen by a vehicle may be viable if the alternator is used as a braking system as the energy will be recovered in the form of Hydrogen to assist the restarting of the vehicle in a similar way to a flywheel in a bus that stores energy during braking to be reused to start the bus.

Otherwise as has been said before you cannot get something for northing!!!!

Many years ago we were using hydrogen balloon gas for flying our 2 metre tethered balloons, until we tested the balloons over fire the resulting fire ball (that was visible) and heat generated proved that we needed to use Helium gas to reduce the danger to ourselves.

 

[gpat]

Necessity. It's increasingly likely that fossil fuels will disappear. They aren't going to make money on EVs because people mainly charge them at home. So hydrogen at filling stations is the best horse they've got to bet on. It might turn out to be a good bet, but it's probably also their only bet at the moment.

I honestly can't see it. LPG is scary enough

However converting gas turbine power stations to burn H2 is possible.

Generate H2 from renewables (excess solar/wind) and the use the H2 to power your gas turbines when its not sunny or windy. Like a big battery but without the cost of batteries

Use the power to charge your EV

 

[Guigsy]

Now regarding the self generation of Hydrogen by a vehicle may be viable if the alternator is used as a braking system as the energy will be recovered in the form of Hydrogen to assist the restarting of the vehicle in a similar way to a flywheel in a bus that stores energy during braking to be reused to start the bus.

Otherwise as has been said before you cannot get something for northing!!!!

Many years ago we were using hydrogen balloon gas for flying our 2 metre tethered balloons, until we tested the balloons over fire the resulting fire ball (that was visible) and heat generated proved that we needed to use Helium gas to reduce the danger to ourselves.

There's several more efficient, lighter and less complex regen systems than generating Hydrogen. Electric to battery/capacitor. Flywheel. Compressed air.

 

[68c]

They will make money from EVs. They will pass laws that ensure you can only charge your car from a registered meter dedicated to car charging. That meter will charge a lot more for EV electricity than for domestic use, a bit like the old white electrical meters for storage heaters and agricultural red diesel. Of course folk will try to bi-pass that meter and will probably face the same consequences as now. They will also take steps to ensure you cannot charge your EV from solar power without paying tax on it. Many years ago I worked in Nigeria. NEPA the Nigerian Electrical Power Authority or 'Not Enough Power Anyways' were unreliable with frequent area power cuts. Rich people had thier own backup generators to cover for this. The law required you to connect your generated supply upstream of the meter so you would be charged for the power you produced yourself. It was a wealth tax of course but relevant to EV supply.

 

[Guigsy]

I honestly can't see it. LPG is scary enough

However converting gas turbine power stations to burn H2 is possible.

Generate H2 from renewables (excess solar/wind) and the use the H2 to power your gas turbines when its not sunny or windy. Like a big battery but without the cost of batteries

Use the power to charge your EV

Maybe. But batteries are pretty efficient. You get most of the energy you put in, back out again. Going via a couple of industrial chemical processes is going to lose you a fair proportion of the energy. But storage from renewables is definitely an issue that needs to be solved.

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[gpat]

Maybe. But batteries are pretty efficient. You get most of the energy you put in, back out again. Going via a couple of industrial chemical processes is going to lose you a fair proportion of the energy. But storage from renewables is definitely an issue that needs to be solved.

True. Batteries will probably prevail but Hydrogen would be a stopgap and because you can convert gas turbines it would allow capital expense to be spread out a bit. Hydrogen generation using electrolysis is not efficient I agree but its quite cheap to set up.

 

[pandas]

Use "environmentally benign" propellants
Or plug into an electrical socket

 

[scally]

I would be a bit concerned about sitting over a tank of hydrogen at 1050psi. Wouldn't you?

Why people dive with a tank on their back at over 3000 psi I think. It depends on the pressure vessel

 

[scally]

Not sure what you point is? You need a chiller to compress hydrogen due to the heat generated during the compression process.
There are two components to this, chilling the compressor which can be done using a normal thermal transfer process such as liquid cooling through a radiator.
But you also need to pre-cool the hydrogen when using it in a filling station. Lots of information around this on the net if you are interested.

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review16/pd107_elgowainy_2016_o.pdf

This was the problem with the compressed air engine around about 1900. It cost to much to liquify air to store at low temperature/ low pressure state.

 

[tonyidle]

They will make money from EVs. They will pass laws that ensure you can only charge your car from a registered meter dedicated to car charging. That meter will charge a lot more for EV electricity than for domestic use, a bit like the old white electrical meters for storage heaters and agricultural red diesel. Of course folk will try to bi-pass that meter and will probably face the same consequences as now. They will also take steps to ensure you cannot charge your EV from solar power without paying tax on it. Many years ago I worked in Nigeria. NEPA the Nigerian Electrical Power Authority or 'Not Enough Power Anyways' were unreliable with frequent area power cuts. Rich people had thier own backup generators to cover for this. The law required you to connect your generated supply upstream of the meter so you would be charged for the power you produced yourself. It was a wealth tax of course but relevant to EV supply.

Or move to mileage / road taxation. Simpler, fairer, and very hard to fiddle.

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