More evidence hydrogen fuelled vans could power future motorhomes?

[Coolcats]

Temporarily going back to hydrogen explosions.. Government just got results back of an independent study.

4 times as many explosions and more damage when it does go pop.

Hydrogen boilers could cause four times as many explosions as gas

Safety fears as government-backed assessment finds the alternative fuel could spark as many as 39 blasts a year

www.telegraph.co.uk

Interesting news Gromett

Millions of UK homes could be heated with hydrogen by 2030​

About 3 million households in the UK could begin using low-carbon hydrogen to heat their homes and cook rather than fossil fuel gas under government proposals to attract at least £4bn of investment to the hydrogen economy by 2030.

The government has published its long-awaited plans for a UK-wide hydrogen economy, which it says could be worth £900m and create more than 9,000 high-quality jobs by the end of the decade, rising to £13bn and 100,000 new jobs by 2050.

Once Hydrogen on this scale is available it will attract investment for motor vehicles….. it is something to celebrate

 

[robnchris]

When you talked about diesel explosions it made me think, As I had never heard of a diesel storage tank exploding I did a bit of googling and found the following,

http://technokontrol.com/pdf/diesel-explosion-tanks.pdf

It is about an investigation into a gas oil storage tank explosion. (basically the same as diesel)

A sample of the contents was required and the operative opened a hatch to lower in a sample on a rope to collect the sample.
While doing this there was an explosion blowing off the roof and starting a fire, Unfortunately the operative was killed.

The investigation found that the ignition source was static from the nylon rope being used to lower the sample device.
If the tank has only gas oil vapour this would not have been a problem as there is not enough energy in a static spark to ignite it.

So why did it explode, Hydrogen!

"The investigation pointed out that the source of explosive mixture in the tank was hydrogen that penetrated with the gas-oil to the tank as a result of non-complete gas-oil stripping with hydrogen at the exit of gas-oil hydrotreating unit."

One has to ask questions about the storage of this material, why was this tank/vessel not serviced with a nitrogen blanket?
Why was the operative using a nylon rope to gain the sample?
Why didn't the tank/vessel have a industry regulated sample point?

I spent my working life in the petro-chemical industry and would suggest to many on here not to look to google for their information or answers.

 

[Coolcats]

One has to ask questions about the storage of this material, why was this tank/vessel not serviced with a nitrogen blanket?
Why was the operative using a nylon rope to gain the sample?
Why didn't the tank/vessel have a industry regulated sample point?

I spent my working life in the petro-chemical industry and would suggest to many on here not to look to google for their information or answers.

Have to add I am no expert in this area but I do have faith in science and engendering to come up with solutions to make Hydrogen a safe usable product.

 

[robnchris]

Have to add I am no expert in this area but I do have faith in science and engendering to come up with solutions to make Hydrogen a safe usable product.

I would say I agree with you, my thoughts are the Battery powered vehicle is just a stop gap for the idiot powers that be thinking they can scrap the ICE engine.
Nothing to do with it being a serviceable vehicle in the correct environment but the logistical problems of everyone being able to charge it, capable distances plus initial costs, Hydrogen as a non polluting fuel is currently the best option.

 

[tonyidle]

I would say I agree with you, my thoughts are the Battery powered vehicle is just a stop gap for the idiot powers that be thinking they can scrap the ICE engine.
Nothing to do with it being a serviceable vehicle in the correct environment but the logistical problems of everyone being able to charge it, capable distances plus initial costs, Hydrogen as a non polluting fuel is currently the best option.

Most options being considered for hydrogen do not involve use in an ICE but to operate fuel cells to charge EV batteries. Hydrogen mixed with air in an ICE is definitely not non-polluting and requires all the NOx mitigation currently in use for ICE engines. The silence, lack of pollution, and simplicity of EV power trains will see the end of ICEs - the only remaining question is finding the optimum method of supplying the power they need.

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[Guigsy]

I think it's going to be a VHS-Betamax situation... the technically best solution may not prevail.

For cars, battery power is the solution. The vast majority of road transport will end up being EV on batteries. For motorhomes and other vehicles in the 3t-10t range, it might be that hydrogen makes more sense. But the amount of infrastructure required to support this relatively small proportion of road users, it just won't happen. So I think we'll be using diesel with increasing hybrid assist for the short term. And long term we'll have batteries that probably don't have the range we're used to from a diesel tank.

For HGVs, the solution still might go to hydrogen. But they can afford to be filled up at relatively sparsely spaced fuel depots.

 

[robnchris]

Most options being considered for hydrogen do not involve use in an ICE but to operate fuel cells to charge EV batteries. Hydrogen mixed with air in an ICE is definitely not non-polluting and requires all the NOx mitigation currently in use for ICE engines. The silence, lack of pollution, and simplicity of EV power trains will see the end of ICEs - the only remaining question is finding the optimum method of supplying the power they need.

Tony I'm not against a battery driven vehicle it's just that the figures don't stack up in my view, The initial cost of them is prohibitive to many, 2nd hand values I suspect will be very low for a 7yr old car because of the lifespan of the batteries, the logistics of Charging is so vastly different, homes without off road parking, high rise flats, homes with more than one vehicle, Charging at service stations at busy times, just look at the amount of cars travelling on the motorways pulling in to fill up with fuel, how long will be the queues be at the charging points when it takes 30 mins or more per charge?
With current ranges being so much shorter than that of equivalent ICE engine long distance travel will put most people off buying them.
Then you have the problem of what the batteries are made from and then their disposal.
The ICE engine will be the go to design for hydrogen just with a modified Cylinder Head.
As for lack of pollution, the EV certainly isn't pollution free, Tyre and Brake pad wear, they still use the roads and the pollution it takes to produce one, you mentioned the silence, I look at that as one of their biggest hazards, they can't be heard so the pedestrian / cyclist don't hear them coming.

 

[GJH]

Buses and police cars to run on hydrogen as Teesside gets £2.5m

Leaders says Teessside is the 'best place' for the research which will see vehicles retrofitted with cleaner engines

www.gazettelive.co.uk

 

[Guigsy]

Buses and police cars to run on hydrogen as Teesside gets £2.5m

Leaders says Teessside is the 'best place' for the research which will see vehicles retrofitted with cleaner engines

www.gazettelive.co.uk

The cars are Toyota Mirai. Even Toyota, the (only) big automotive advocate of hydrogen fuel cells, is now doubting it'll win.

 

[Coolcats]

The cars are Toyota Mirai. Even Toyota, the (only) big automotive advocate of hydrogen fuel cells, is now doubting it'll win.

Its not about winning or loosing it is about having the right energy store for the job, in some cases this may be Hydrogen and in others it may be Battery technology or even a mixture of both. Before anyone runs away with the idea that Lithum Batteries are the nirvana......Graphene Batteries are coming and will make the Lithium battery charging rate look like so yesterdays technology.

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[Guigsy]

Its not about winning or loosing it is about having the right energy store for the job, in some cases this may be Hydrogen and in others it may be Battery technology or even a mixture of both. Before anyone runs away with the idea that Lithum Batteries are the nirvana......Graphene Batteries are coming and will make the Lithium battery charging rate look like so yesterdays technology.

If there aren't enough vehicles on the road to support your new fuel, then you aren't going to hit critical mass and you'll lose on your investment. Toyota look like they bet on the wrong horse.

There are already several cars appearing with the same LiFePO4 battery technology that some of us are using as hab batteries. It's not as energy dense as Lithium Ion, but it's cheaper and doesn't use cobalt or several other rare metals. But it charges fast and lasts a good while and is a bit safer. It'll probably end up becoming the standard on cheaper, shorter range EVs in the next couple of years.

For the higher end, with longer range and better performance, we'll see increasing incremental improvements in battery chemistry. The limit is close to becoming how many kilowatts charging points can deliver, rather than how much the battery can suck down. We're already at the point for EV cars where it's not much more than a 5 minute charge for 2 hours of driving.

 

[tonyidle]

Tony I'm not against a battery driven vehicle it's just that the figures don't stack up in my view, The initial cost of them is prohibitive to many, 2nd hand values I suspect will be very low for a 7yr old car because of the lifespan of the batteries, the logistics of Charging is so vastly different, homes without off road parking, high rise flats, homes with more than one vehicle, Charging at service stations at busy times, just look at the amount of cars travelling on the motorways pulling in to fill up with fuel, how long will be the queues be at the charging points when it takes 30 mins or more per charge?
With current ranges being so much shorter than that of equivalent ICE engine long distance travel will put most people off buying them.
Then you have the problem of what the batteries are made from and then their disposal.
The ICE engine will be the go to design for hydrogen just with a modified Cylinder Head.
As for lack of pollution, the EV certainly isn't pollution free, Tyre and Brake pad wear, they still use the roads and the pollution it takes to produce one, you mentioned the silence, I look at that as one of their biggest hazards, they can't be heard so the pedestrian / cyclist don't hear them coming.

Agree about the initial cost but how many could afford a car of any sort in the '50s for similar reasons? Fuel cell technology means that EV development can continue as is with currently available batteries which will obviate the need for too many hydrogen refuelling locations. ICE engine production is being phased out already and apart from a very few specialised uses will continue to be so. Obviously EVs produce all the same pollutants that ICE vehicles do with the exception of those produced by burning hydrocarbons. Battery technology isn't fixed and will continue to evolve and any production pollutants in excess of those produced by building an ICE engined vehicle will continue to be addressed. Noise: there is already legislation in the pipeline for EVs to produce safety noise. It may not be as exciting to our ears as an ICE at the limit but might be more appealing to the non-petrolhead.

 

[autorouter]

Millions of UK homes could be heated with hydrogen by 2030​

About 3 million households in the UK could begin using low-carbon hydrogen to heat their homes and cook rather than fossil fuel gas under government proposals to attract at least £4bn of investment to the hydrogen economy by 2030.

The government has published its long-awaited plans for a UK-wide hydrogen economy, which it says could be worth £900m and create more than 9,000 high-quality jobs by the end of the decade, rising to £13bn and 100,000 new jobs by 2050.

If you look at the actual plans, it's not 'Green Hydrogen' (made by splitting water using renewable electricity) but only 'a proportion'. The rest is 'Blue Hydrogen' made by splitting fossil fuel gas, releasing CO2. The idea is to capture the CO2 and trap it 'somehow'. So once again it's just a big PR smokescreen exercise to keep using fossil fuels.

 

[Guigsy]

If you look at the actual plans, it's not 'Green Hydrogen' (made by splitting water using renewable electricity) but only 'a proportion'. The rest is 'Blue Hydrogen' made by splitting fossil fuel gas, releasing CO2. The idea is to capture the CO2 and trap it 'somehow'. So once again it's just a big PR smokescreen exercise to keep using fossil fuels.

I read some of the background stuff on this. The initiative includes proposals to change some industries around Hull from natural gas to hydrogen... which will be made from natural gas. It goes on to say that in the future they'll use renewable sources to make 'green hydrogen'. But the proposals also include getting other industries that currently rely on electricity to use hydrogen. But to make 'green hydrogen', the energy comes from the electricity generation... It just didn't make any sense!

 

[Coolcats]

I read some of the background stuff on this. The initiative includes proposals to change some industries around Hull from natural gas to hydrogen... which will be made from natural gas. It goes on to say that in the future they'll use renewable sources to make 'green hydrogen'. But the proposals also include getting other industries that currently rely on electricity to use hydrogen. But to make 'green hydrogen', the energy comes from the electricity generation... It just didn't make any sense!

Not everything has to make sense Hydrogen is currently being fed into the gas network as part of the mix

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[Guigsy]

Not everything has to make sense Hydrogen is currently being fed into the gas network as part of the mix

But unless that hydrogen is generated from renewable electricity and electrolysis, what's the point?

 

[Coolcats]

But unless that hydrogen is generated from renewable electricity and electrolysis, what's the point?

But unless that hydrogen is generated from renewable electricity and electrolysis, what's the point?

The Hydrogen can be generated from the energy that is normally wasted by not being used, I posted some information on this a while back, as an example a wind turbine's space capacity could be uptake to generate Hydrogen rather than being wasted.

 

[Guigsy]

The Hydrogen can be generated from the energy that is normally wasted by not being used, I posted some information on this a while back, as an example a wind turbine's space capacity could be uptake to generate Hydrogen rather than being wasted.

Until we have enough excess electricity from renewables to create enough hydrogen to support the vast majority of these operations, it seems pointless. Turning natural gas into hydrogen is a process that has an efficiency cost.

 

[Coolcats]

Until we have enough excess electricity from renewables to create enough hydrogen to support the vast majority of these operations, it seems pointless. Turning natural gas into hydrogen is a process that has an efficiency cost.

Everything has an efficiency cost including transmission losses within the national electrical distribution system. but let’s place the nay saying to one side I’m sure if people could have a hydrogen powered MoHo now rather than a heavier slower refilling battery one they would even London transport have Hydrogen Busses it’s a technology option and should be celebrated

Just a few more Hydrogen activities.......its coming to a Vehicle, heating system etc near you soon

UK government launches plan for a world-leading hydrogen economy, these are the details​

A Hydrogen Engine and Another deal from Deutz AG​

Gromett may like this one

How hydrogen generated by wind farms off Yorkshire coast could help region's bid to become a 'green steel' world leader​

 

[autorouter]

I read some of the background stuff on this. The initiative includes proposals to change some industries around Hull from natural gas to hydrogen... which will be made from natural gas. It goes on to say that in the future they'll use renewable sources to make 'green hydrogen'. But the proposals also include getting other industries that currently rely on electricity to use hydrogen. But to make 'green hydrogen', the energy comes from the electricity generation... It just didn't make any sense!

It seems the boss of that project to make 'blue hydrogen' agrees with you.

Oil firms made ‘false claims’ on blue hydrogen costs, says ex-lobby boss

Chris Jackson believes companies promoted ‘unsustainable’ fossil gas projects to access billions in taxpayer subsidies

www.theguardian.com

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[tonyidle]

Everything has an efficiency cost including transmission losses within the national electrical distribution system. but let’s place the nay saying to one side I’m sure if people could have a hydrogen powered MoHo now rather than a heavier slower refilling battery one they would even London transport have Hydrogen Busses it’s a technology option and should be celebrated

Hydrogen powered London buses still use batteries. All the technology developed for EVs is still needed for a "hydrogen powered" vehicle including (a reduced capacity) battery. Basically hydrogen powers a mobile battery charger.

 

[Guigsy]

Hydrogen powered London buses still use batteries. All the technology developed for EVs is still needed for a "hydrogen powered" vehicle including (a reduced capacity) battery. Basically hydrogen powers a mobile battery charger.

The battery relatively small and is used to even out demand. The hydrogen fuel cell produces a continuous flow of electricity. When the bus is sitting at the stop, it fills up the battery. But when the bus pulls away, it needs more power than the fuel cell can supply, so it's supplemented by the battery. Nothing wrong with it. A sensible design.

 

[tonyidle]

The battery relatively small and is used to even out demand. The hydrogen fuel cell produces a continuous flow of electricity. When the bus is sitting at the stop, it fills up the battery. But when the bus pulls away, it needs more power than the fuel cell can supply, so it's supplemented by the battery. Nothing wrong with it. A sensible design.

Totally agree and your description is spot on. It does mean though that EV and battery research and development needs to be in tandem with hydrogen. Its an interesting area of development to keep an eye on. The battery size could be varied depending on use and anticipated distance between hydrogen refuelling stations. Buses (and to an extent certain delivery vehicles) are a special case in that their fuel use can be accurately determined so that depot visits for refuelling are easily arranged.

 

[Coolcats]

Hydrogen powered London buses still use batteries. All the technology developed for EVs is still needed for a "hydrogen powered" vehicle including (a reduced capacity) battery. Basically hydrogen powers a mobile battery charger.

The busses have far greater range and refuel much faster therefore can be in service for longer periods generating more revenue for the company.

 

[Guigsy]

Totally agree and your description is spot on. It does mean though that EV and battery research and development needs to be in tandem with hydrogen. Its an interesting area of development to keep an eye on. The battery size could be varied depending on use and anticipated distance between hydrogen refuelling stations. Buses (and to an extent certain delivery vehicles) are a special case in that their fuel use can be accurately determined so that depot visits for refuelling are easily arranged.

My last (petrol) car had quite a lot of information available on the screen, including power output. If I accelerated hard, I could get it to use most of the +300HP it claimed to have. But cruising on the motorway at legal speeds only required about 40HP. Which is why lots of hybrid sports cars like the BMW i8 can get away with relatively small engines. They only need to produce enough power from the combustion engine to maintain a bit more than the average output. For the occasional peak output, you draw on a (hopefully charged!) battery assist. Hydrogen fuel cell cars will work the same way.

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[Coolcats]

Totally agree and your description is spot on. It does mean though that EV and battery research and development needs to be in tandem with hydrogen. Its an interesting area of development to keep an eye on. The battery size could be varied depending on use and anticipated distance between hydrogen refuelling stations. Buses (and to an extent certain delivery vehicles) are a special case in that their fuel use can be accurately determined so that depot visits for refuelling are easily arranged.

Graphene batteries are becoming a reality which means a different technology to the lithium ones on theory the body of a vehicle could also be it’s energy store neat or what

 

[Guigsy]

Graphene batteries are becoming a reality which means a different technology to the lithium ones on theory the body of a vehicle could also be it’s energy store neat or what

I've heard that the solid state batteries are initially going to be VERY small capacities. Like wearable tech sized. Effectively oversized capacitors. They are just too expensive to build for large energy storage for things like transport at this stage.

 

[Coolcats]

I've heard that the solid state batteries are initially going to be VERY small capacities. Like wearable tech sized. Effectively oversized capacitors. They are just too expensive to build for large energy storage for things like transport at this stage.

Yup early days but suspect it will happen.

 

[Gromett]

I've heard that the solid state batteries are initially going to be VERY small capacities. Like wearable tech sized. Effectively oversized capacitors. They are just too expensive to build for large energy storage for things like transport at this stage.

Tell that to QuantumScape who are partnered with VW.

I am still sceptical of solid state batteries, but if anyone seems likely to succeed it will be QuantumScape.

 

[Guigsy]

Tell that to QuantumScape who are partnered with VW.

I am still sceptical of solid state batteries, but if anyone seems likely to succeed it will be QuantumScape.

VW haven't been great at picking the best bets...

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