Is the EV motorhome starting to look to be a viable prospect ?

[glenn2926]

Good point, but I really think it's more important to at least try to look after the place for those who come after us. We don't know if the cars vans of the future will be inferior, technology is a funny thing. My first PC with 4mb of RAM, no CD drive etc cost £1,800 in 1993. My £350 iPhone SE Has 16,000 times more memory capacity. I use this as an example, prices will come down as the technology develops, and technology will develop.

I understand your point re the improvements in technology . The improvements came about because of competition though. With the banning of ICE vehicles the competition is effectively eliminated leaving electric car makers with no incentive or need to develop their product as there will be nothing for it to compete with. The cost of these vehicles is exactly the same. The manufacturers of electric cars won’t need to compete on price as the competition is being banned. Why should they bring their prices down when we will have no choice if we want to stay on the road?

 

[Slopey]

I sort of understand that you and others may see these things as brilliant. No noise? Most modern cars are pretty quiet now. Acceleration? I’ll give you great acceleration but not many of us get use the acceleration our current cars have now. Cheap as chips to run? How many years of running will it take to get back the astronomical difference in purchase price?

As a Tesla M3LR owner here (for 2+ years) - they are just that - brilliant.

The acceleration is astounding, and I use it daily with a very large smile on my face. As regards cost - it was no more expensive than my previous similarly spec'd out Volvos (S60, XC60 etc) - granted, these were fully loaded - I'm not comparing it with a small 2 door runabout/town car. Running costs are tiny compared to previous Diesel cars, even more so now with the price hike. The reduction in BIK tax (and the saving on other taxes) made it a net gain by many thousands of pounds over a ICE company car.

I've gone from £70+ per week (based on fuel prices 2 years ago, so what... £100+ per week now?) to around £15 a week in "fuel" costs.

Added to that, if I trade it back in now, it's worth the same, if not slightly more than when I bought it - virtually zero depreciation due to the demand and lack of supply in the market.

A motorhome is a different prospect than a car - people rarely do more than 100 miles on daily usage, and those sort of daily ranges can easily be topped up overnight from a 3 pin socket - doesn't need a 7.4kW charger. The tech isn't quite there yet, but it can only be a few years away.

The above all being said, there's no way I would buy a non-Tesla EV for long distance driving. I've been down from Aberdeen to Oxford/Cambridge several times the last few months and without the Tesla supercharger network that would have been a nightmare for charging (stops of 1hr+ on the way down, if you can find a working fast charger, which doesn't have a PHEV parked at it for no reason) as opposed to rocking up at a Supercharger and being good to go within 15-20 mins tops. Until the public infrastructure is in place, I wouldn't consider any other brand for long distance driving, and that would include motorhomes.

As Soycd says - quite a bit of vitriol directed at EVs is from people who have never even set foot in one, let alone used them as their primary vehicle for a few months. Range anxiety/charging anxiety is a big thing, but once you actually have an EV, you very quickly realise that with a little bit of forward planning on long (200+ mile) trips, it's actually not that much of a problem, and really no problem whatsoever if you happen to have gone the Tesla route, along with zero problems for day to day commuting/town use provided you have access to a 3 pin plug to top up overnight at home (which not all people do, to be fair).

 

[Slopey]

Unfortunately there isn’t one. We will hang onto our ICE vehicles as long as possible but eventually we’ll have to accept much more expensive inferior vehicles. It’s a great shame after the best part of a century of progressively better vehicles but we will have no choice but to take great strides backwards in personal transportation.

There is nothing about my M3 which is inferior - it is markedly superior to every car I've driven prior, with the exception of it being a saloon rather than an SUV as regards luggage/boot capacity. But the same would be true of any saloon vs an SUV - and the new Model Y addresses that to a certain extent, as do the large new EVs from Polestar (i.e. not-a-volvo) and the more traditional marques.

 

[dash300]

Good point, but I really think it's more important to at least try to look after the place for those who come after us. We don't know if the cars vans of the future will be inferior, technology is a funny thing. My first PC with 4mb of RAM, no CD drive etc cost £1,800 in 1993. My £350 iPhone SE Has 16,000 times more memory capacity. I use this as an example, prices will come down as the technology develops, and technology will develop.

There has been as you say enormous technological advances in micro technology for low energy consumption items. However when it comes to energy hungry technolgy such advances have had much less impact. Our Vehicles have become extremely advanced in every area of safety, navigation, diagnostics etc etc but as for energy hungry propulsion, technology has yet to catch up.
I have tried an EV and yes very impressive and will buy one as a personal run around when range issues norm out. However for large vehicle/commercials etc. we are some way off replacing the ICE.

 

[glenn2926]

As a Tesla M3LR owner here (for 2+ years) - they are just that - brilliant.

The acceleration is astounding, and I use it daily with a very large smile on my face. As regards cost - it was no more expensive than my previous similarly spec'd out Volvos (S60, XC60 etc) - granted, these were fully loaded - I'm not comparing it with a small 2 door runabout/town car. Running costs are tiny compared to previous Diesel cars, even more so now with the price hike. The reduction in BIK tax (and the saving on other taxes) made it a net gain by many thousands of pounds over a ICE company car.

I've gone from £70+ per week (based on fuel prices 2 years ago, so what... £100+ per week now?) to around £15 a week in "fuel" costs.

Added to that, if I trade it back in now, it's worth the same, if not slightly more than when I bought it - virtually zero depreciation due to the demand and lack of supply in the market.

A motorhome is a different prospect than a car - people rarely do more than 100 miles on daily usage, and those sort of daily ranges can easily be topped up overnight from a 3 pin socket - doesn't need a 7.4kW charger. The tech isn't quite there yet, but it can only be a few years away.

The above all being said, there's no way I would buy a non-Tesla EV for long distance driving. I've been down from Aberdeen to Oxford/Cambridge several times the last few months and without the Tesla supercharger network that would have been a nightmare for charging (stops of 1hr+ on the way down, if you can find a working fast charger, which doesn't have a PHEV parked at it for no reason) as opposed to rocking up at a Supercharger and being good to go within 15-20 mins tops. Until the public infrastructure is in place, I wouldn't consider any other brand for long distance driving, and that would include motorhomes.

As Soycd says - quite a bit of vitriol directed at EVs is from people who have never even set foot in one, let alone used them as their primary vehicle for a few months. Range anxiety/charging anxiety is a big thing, but once you actually have an EV, you very quickly realise that with a little bit of forward planning on long (200+ mile) trips, it's actually not that much of a problem, and really no problem whatsoever if you happen to have gone the Tesla route, along with zero problem provided you have access to a 3 pin plug to top up overnight at home (which not all people do, to be fair).

The Tesla power plant is probably the best there is . The cars though? Wow, are they ugly? Quite possibly the ugliest cars I’ve ever seen. Why can they not make them look nice?
My earlier point remains, if they are so good they will take over from ICE cars on merit, but no. ICE needs to be banned to make them the future. That does make one wonder why they need that help?

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[glenn2926]

There is nothing about my M3 which is inferior - it is markedly superior to every car I've driven prior, with the exception of it being a saloon rather than an SUV as regards luggage/boot capacity. But the same would be true of any saloon vs an SUV - and the new Model Y addresses that to a certain extent, as do the large new EVs from Polestar (i.e. not-a-volvo) and the more traditional marques.

I have a really beat up 15 year old nissan pickup. Let’s see how superior your fancy electric car fares in a test?
Here, Yorkshire to Chamonix pulling a 2 tonne trailer. Nothing fancy. This is something I do so not a made up test. Start together and first there wins. That will show which is superior. Sound like a fair test.?
I did offer this test to another Tesla owner they didn’t take it up. I wonder why?

 

[Slopey]

The Tesla power plant is probably the best there is . The cars though? Wow, are they ugly? Quite possibly the ugliest cars I’ve ever seen. Why can they not make them look nice?
My earlier point remains, if they are so good they will take over from ICE cars on merit, but no. ICE needs to be banned to make them the future. That does make one wonder why they need that help?

I think they look pretty good to be honest - mine gets plenty complements - most people think it looks almost Porsche like, and not had a single person not like the styling to date - ymmv.

I don't think ICE needs to be banned to make EVs take over on merit - anyone who I've known who has bought an EV of any brand has said they'll never go back.

The way fuel prices are going, ICE will price themselves out of the market on running costs alone. For now, for motorhomes and logistics - there's no infrastructure for anything other than ICE to work, but I can see a major shift to EV across the general populace in the UK without the 'big stick' of a 2030 ban.

Although I wasn't a fan of it initially, the green flag on numberplates is quite an eye-opener - from getting my M3 2 years ago when occasionally there were a few Leafs kicking about, there's now a very much larger and more visible number of EVs on the road, so I think it's happening, like it or not, and that momentum is pushing people over to EVs regardless.

 

[Slopey]

I have a really beat up 15 year old nissan pickup. Let’s see how superior your fancy electric car fares in a test?
Here, Yorkshire to Chamonix pulling a 2 tonne trailer. Nothing fancy. Start together and first there wins. That will show which is superior. Sound like a fair test.?
I did offer this test to another Tesla owner they didn’t take it up. I wonder why?

Unless you have an X, you can't tow 2 tonnes. Mine can only tow 1 ton.

But that's not the point - an EV currently isn't there to replace your pickup. There are some EV pickups coming especially in the US market but it's not there yet.

That's like saying my Boeing 737 is better than your fancy Nissan because yours doesn't fly.

This always happens with people dissing EVs - they roll out the "but it can't pull 1000 tons!" - well, it's not designed to, so keep with your Nissan while you need that capability. However in the future, it's likely there will be EVs which can (the X not being far off currently).

But comparing apples with oranges is pointless.

 

[glenn2926]

Unless you have an X, you can't tow 2 tonnes. Mine can only tow 1 ton.

But that's not the point - an EV currently isn't there to replace your pickup. There are some EV pickups coming especially in the US market but it's not there yet.

That's like saying my Boeing 737 is better than your fancy Nissan because yours doesn't fly.

This always happens with people dissing EVs - they roll out the "but it can't pull 1000 tons!" - well, it's not designed to, so keep with your Nissan while you need that capability. However in the future, it's likely there will be EVs which can (the X not being far off currently).

But comparing apples with oranges is pointless.

As is your stating that EVs are better. They’re not, not in most situations. Sure they work for city types but in the real world where vehicles work for their keep EVs are not there yet. I’ve seen the Rivian pick up and do like it but, and it’s a big but. I have about £3-4,000 in my pickup and don’t mind it getting bashed about. Having the best part of £60-£80,000 in a pick up just way, way beyond what I’ll ever be able to spend.

 

[Slopey]

As is your stating that EVs are better. They’re not, not in most situations. Sure they work for city types but in the real world where vehicles work for their keep EVs are not there yet. I’ve seen the Rivian pick up and do like it but, and it’s a big but. I have about £3-4,000 in my pickup and don’t mind it getting bashed about. Having the best part of £60-£80,000 in a pick up just way, way beyond what I’ll ever be able to spend.

I agree entirely. EVs are better, in my humble opinion, when you're comparing them against a low milage town run-about (i.e. Leaf) or an executive tourer (Polestar/Tesla/some of the Jag (very overpriced) or BMW EVs). But not for anything commercial such as a transit/van/pickup/flatbed, or a cheap work horse you don't mind getting dinged - for now, ICE is the only option in that regard. (The range on the new electric Transit is pointless for exactly that reason).

Motorhomes fall between the two a little - they have the expense of a executive car (and some!!!), and you certainly don't want them getting dinged! But it's definitely 5+ years off before there's a production model, with the appropriate infrastructure which could mean mass adoption of electric motorhomes.

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[nicholsong]

The ban in 8 years applies to cars. Not commercial vehicles.

The devil will be in the detail.

Cars are Vehicle Category M1. Motorcaravans are Vehicle Category M1 (Special Purpose)

Commercial, i.e. 'Carrying goods' are Vehicle Category N1 etc.

MHs are based on commercial vehicle chassis and propulsion.

How will the 'ban' be defined? Will it be defined by the chassis and propulsion method or by its body usage? DHL vehicle with beds and kitchens behind the driver's seat and racks for parcels behind? I know, DHL can use EV based at electrified depots, but you get my drift?

Beyond the ban, I am wondering how long my diesel 2003 MH will last and/or how long I will have to live to get a S/H EV MH at my affordable price.

Personally I see my decision point being about 5-6 years away, when I can see the relative costs of a good S/H ICE versus an EV, also the relative range and recharging facilities of EV and diesel - I am thinking up the Alps/Pyrenees(can't get LPG/GPL up there now).

Geoff

 

[Ivory55]

I am waiting to see an electric motorhome with a kippor generator running full chat to power the ladies hairdryer. Haha

 

[63720]

For motive power and delivery electricity is better but that means swapping oil for coal at source.

 

[DumfriesDik]

The problem is, erm, also is, is that not public charge points are not designed for extra long vehicles. I doubt you would be able to charge on the hoof easily.

 

[TOT]

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[glenn2926]

View attachment 601290

That probably get as far in a day and refill faster.

 

[SheikhLala]

I think Electric is a phase, more readily available than any alternative but too flawed for mass use. Hydrogen is where we’ll go.
EVs can’t refill/recharge quickly enough. You think about the size of an average forecourt or motorway services, they’d only be able to charge a fraction of the vehicles they could if you fossil fuels, therefore to maintain profit prices would sore, making it uneconomic.
Hydrogen refilling would be comparable to a fossil fuel vehicle. Underground storage tanks could be replaced for hydrogen storage.

 

[glenn2926]

I think Electric is a phase, more readily available than any alternative but too flawed for mass use. Hydrogen is where we’ll go.
EVs can’t refill/recharge quickly enough. You think about the size of an average forecourt or motorway services, they’d only be able to charge a fraction of the vehicles they could if you fossil fuels, therefore to maintain profit prices would sore, making it uneconomic.
Hydrogen refilling would be comparable to a fossil fuel vehicle. Underground storage tanks could be replaced for hydrogen storage.

I really do hope you are correct. The EV lovers will certainly be against this but hopefully we will have an option, battery or hydrogen power. This would keep most of us happy.
My hobby is motorcycling. If the only option was a battery bike I would in all probability give up riding. If there is the option of a hydrogen powered bike I would continue to ride.

 

[TOT]

Whatever happened to Biofuel..?

 

[Tonks]

Unfortunately there isn’t one. We will hang onto our ICE vehicles as long as possible but eventually we’ll have to accept much more expensive inferior vehicles. It’s a great shame after the best part of a century of progressively better vehicles but we will have no choice but to take great strides backwards in personal transportation.

Quote just lifted from the Gov website: "3 Aug 2020 — The government plans for petrol and diesel cars to be phased out of use on UK roads by 2035." This means that they think that just 5 years after the ban on new ICE vehicles everyone will have shifted to EVs.

Given the numbers of vehicles on the roads which are well over 5 years old, this is interesting thinking. My vehicles are both 13 years old. Both run fine, and I've no immediate plans to change either. I looked into buying a hybrid car but the costs to change were far too high to justify, even if I could afford it. In 2035 there will be a lot of 'scrap' vehicles which are perfectly maintained and running. The environmental impact of scrapping them all will be enormous.
However, it is already pretty clear that the government both national and local is on a path to price people out of owning or using ICE vehicles via CAZs, LEZs, fuel costs, and taxation.

Given the current state of the roads and the stretches on national funding, I also remain entirely unconvinced at present that the necessary supporting infrastructure will be in place to support these dates.

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[Plumberz]

I had a mitsubishi phev great till needed major service. The dealer said trouble with batteries, how much i asked £8000 i nearly fell over, how much is my 2016 plate worth, oh its only £15000 , so i sold it and bought 3litre diesel mercedes and a massive caravan.

 

[DT]

I would not like my driving ability to be controlled by a smart meter and some green person pulling the strings. Ten years ago when I lived in the US they could reduce my electrical power at my home remotely in the case of storm or high demand.

 

[Guigsy]

I think Electric is a phase, more readily available than any alternative but too flawed for mass use. Hydrogen is where we’ll go.
EVs can’t refill/recharge quickly enough. You think about the size of an average forecourt or motorway services, they’d only be able to charge a fraction of the vehicles they could if you fossil fuels, therefore to maintain profit prices would sore, making it uneconomic.
Hydrogen refilling would be comparable to a fossil fuel vehicle. Underground storage tanks could be replaced for hydrogen storage.

We're at a stage where we're adding 25 miles of range for each minute of charge. And it's getting faster every year. The time to charge is quickly disappearing.

The majority of charging will be done at home. So the fact it takes a few minutes longer to charge will be offset by there being less customers. The Shell garage close to me is being refurbished. Half the pumps are going. They are being replaced by EV bays and a coffee shop. They'll make far more money selling over priced coffee and snacks to captive customers that have to sit for 10 minutes.

Hydrogen currently has speed of fill-up advantages and it's also more familiar with how we fill cars now. But for cars, I think battery power will stick. Hydrogen still requires a massive infrastructure change, they are useless until there's a lot of hydrogen filling stations. But EVs can be plugged into a wall socket. Hydrogen is much less efficient than batteries, so its nowhere near as good for the environment. In-vehicle fuel cells and the hydrogen storage are still expensive, so there's no price benefit over a battery.

For trucks, hydrogen might well happen. There's a lot of economic reasons it might compared to cars (although new battery technology is looking to make it more and more marginal). For motorhomes, hydrogen makes more sense, but if there's nowhere to fill it, it won't happen.

 

[glenn2926]

Unless you have an X, you can't tow 2 tonnes. Mine can only tow 1 ton.

I’ve not heard of an X and all pickups can tow at least 2 tonnes. Mine can tow 2.7 tonnes. Most can tow 3.5tonnes.

 

[Guigsy]

Quote just lifted from the Gov website: "3 Aug 2020 — The government plans for petrol and diesel cars to be phased out of use on UK roads by 2035." This means that they think that just 5 years after the ban on new ICE vehicles everyone will have shifted to EVs.

Given the numbers of vehicles on the roads which are well over 5 years old, this is interesting thinking. My vehicles are both 13 years old. Both run fine, and I've no immediate plans to change either. I looked into buying a hybrid car but the costs to change were far too high to justify, even if I could afford it. In 2035 there will be a lot of 'scrap' vehicles which are perfectly maintained and running. The environmental impact of scrapping them all will be enormous.
However, it is already pretty clear that the government both national and local is on a path to price people out of owning or using ICE vehicles via CAZs, LEZs, fuel costs, and taxation.

Given the current state of the roads and the stretches on national funding, I also remain entirely unconvinced at present that the necessary supporting infrastructure will be in place to support these dates.

Petrol and diesel will still be available after that date. Just you won't be able to buy new cars with internal combustion engines.

I suspect that long term, fossil fuels will be replaced with bio/synthetic fuels. They'll get more expensive over time. So eventually it'll just be people driving 'classic' cars that need to increase their range by driving to a specialist to purchase a combustible liquid. I'm not sure where motorhomes will fit in this new world. We're too few in number to make a massive difference to the way the market and government policy will go.

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[Slopey]

I’ve not heard of an X and all pickups can tow at least 2 tonnes. Mine can tow 2.7 tonnes. Most can tow 3.5tonnes.

Tesla Model X - it can tow 2.25 tons. The Polestar2 can do 1.5 tons and a Model 3 can do 1 ton.

But none of these are pickups anyway, and there aren't any electric pickups in the UK market, so again apples and oranges. Once the Rivian R1T arrives (supposed to have been here already - Jan '22), it is listed as being able to do 3.5 tons.

 

[Guigsy]

Tesla Model X - it can tow 2.25 tons. The Polestar2 can do 1.5 tons and a Model 3 can do 1 ton.

But none of these are pickups anyway, and there aren't any electric pickups in the UK market, so again apples and oranges. Once the Rivian R1T arrives (supposed to have been here already - Jan '22), it is listed as being able to do 3.5 tons.

I don't think you have to worry about how capable electric trucks are:

 

[glenn2926]

Tesla Model X - it can tow 2.25 tons. The Polestar2 can do 1.5 tons and a Model 3 can do 1 ton.

But none of these are pickups anyway, and there aren't any electric pickups in the UK market, so again apples and oranges. Once the Rivian R1T arrives (supposed to have been here already - Jan '22), it is listed as being able to do 3.5 tons.

It’s all very well claiming I’m comparing apple to oranges but my vehicle is the one I need for my lifestyle. Your battery car cannot do what I need a vehicle to do. So for me it’s definitely a backward step to an inferior vehicle to my 15 year old pickup.
The Rivian looks good but I bet I cannot get one for £4000. Which is what I can get a pickup for.
Sure the pick for £4000 isn’t new but I don’t buy new cars. I don’t and never will have the money to buy new.
A new pickup is about £28000-£35000. The Rivian looks like it starts at around double or triple that amount. That’s the price of an awful lot of diesel. For me this makes it a very, very expensive change. In fact a change I will never be able to afford.

 

[glenn2926]

It’s all very well claiming I’m comparing apple to oranges but my vehicle is the one I need for my lifestyle. Your battery car cannot do what I need a vehicle to do. So for me it’s definitely a backward step to an inferior vehicle to my 15 year old pickup.
The Rivian looks good but I bet I cannot get one for £4000. Which is what I can get a pickup for.
Sure the pick for £4000 isn’t new but I don’t buy new cars. I don’t and never will have the money to buy new.
A new pickup is about £28000-£35000. The Rivian looks like it starts at around double or triple that amount. That’s the price of an awful lot of diesel. For me this makes it a very, very expensive change. In fact a change I will never be able to afford.

Also my pickup will travel over 400 miles on a tank of diesel and refill ready for another 400 miles in about 5 minutes. Can the Rivian do this? If not then it’s an inferior vehicle.

 

[The Wino]

I understand your point re the improvements in technology . The improvements came about because of competition though. With the banning of ICE vehicles the competition is effectively eliminated leaving electric car makers with no incentive or need to develop their product as there will be nothing for it to compete with. The cost of these vehicles is exactly the same. The manufacturers of electric cars won’t need to compete on price as the competition is being banned. Why should they bring their prices down when we will have no choice if we want to stay on the road?

But conventionally engined cars have developed over the years through competition with other conventional cars. Ev,s will develop and have done by competition with other ev,s. The range and speed of charging will be major selling points it's not like they're saying you must buy an ev from one manufacturer. The other option is to not ban ice cars but wait until everyone buys ev,s because they are better that would mean they developed for longer but pollution continued for longer. I think they ought instead of banning them drastically increase fuel duty in a planned way over a similar time period. It would make people causing the most pollution change sooner and those who have ice vehicles but do very few miles could keep their ice vehicles. When I say increase fuel duty I'm thinking another pound a litre or so by the time the ice ban would come into force.

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