Is posh diesel worth it?

[Daffy64]

So come on, should I put the expensive in or say one in three times?
Just a definitive answer please, I can’t cope with all the explanations and science.
My brain hurts.

My advice would be as already said, use a std branded diesel and not supermarket fuel

I would concur with TrudeandDall - I’ve been 40 years technical with the last 20 + as the UK Technical lead for a major high speed diesel engine manufacturer.

 

[Bern8]

The problem with some diesel is the bio content it can vary from 5%-20% (30% France) the bio part of the diesel contains a lot of water, the reputable suppliers will only have the low bio content, water going through the fuel system theoreticaly should be stopped by the filter but some will always get through and when the engine is not at full temp will cause carbon to build up in the exhaust system affecting the DPF and EGR valve.

A page I follow on FB talk about many things to reduce the chance of injectors failing. One suggestion is using decent fuel, another is keeping your fuel filled to the brim to reduce moisture getting to the injector tips. Nobody knows what causes injector failure but we try everything to eliminate it.
Sorry to go off topic

 

[ChrisL]

Diesel Bob (a diesel specialist) advised me after re-calibrating my pump to put a tank of posh diesel through once every couple of months of daily use.

 

[Bluemooner]

​

Diesel Bob is that the place near Ribchester just down the road from me

 

[Wanders from Glos]

What is the additive you can add yourself. Where do you get it?

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[garry55]

Every 4th fill-up I use super/premium diesel. Just to give the motor a clean.
I do put super-unleaded in all of my bikes that have carbs to help prevent the dreaded ethanol-induced crud formation over winter. Injected bikes, I just use regular.

 

[ChrisL]

​

Diesel Bob is that the place near Ribchester just down the road from me

Diesel Bob (UK) Ltd -

For the owner, driver of any diesel powered vehicle who wants the best from their vehicle. Offering the ultimate diesel engine tuning as well as a diesel fuel injection service. Repairs and reconditioning of injectors and diesel pumps, suppliers of diesel fuel system parts and additives

www.dieselbob.co.uk

 

[bigwood]

Running a 55 plate coach build on a 2.4 Transit chassis I use the cheaper Jet garage on our way out of town. When we are away I fill up we’re it’s convenient but always standard diesel.
The only time I use special shell diesel and Wyns fuel system cleaner is pre MOT hoping it will help with emissions. It dosnt seem to make any difference to the way it runs or the consumption.

 

[Graydo]

Yes, we always check our route to see if there's a Costco fuel station en-route. Premium diesel at lower price than the lowest regular we can find elsewhere. Reading seems particularly cheap !

Not just me then,
Haydock and Thurrock fills.on the way down to tunnel and back up.

Graydo

 

[Plynchy]

Some further 'inside' info for this thread, I used to work on almost all of the fuel depots in the UK, commissioning loading racks, automation systems etc etc.
The base fuel is all held in the same huge storage tanks (look to your left next time you're going South over the QE2 crossing, that's one of the biggest/busiest depots in the country), the road tankers all load from the same racks using the same base fuel, with specific additives added at point of loading, this is the only difference in the fuels to the best of my knowledge. Shell for example have their own additives, whereas the lesser brands will use generic.
There was some press about supermarket diesel a few years ago seizing engines, this was due to an overdose of additive apparently, computers go wrong occasionally.
I've ran many diesel vehicles over the years on supermarket fuels without any issues, but I think the Ford MoHo will be getting a drink of Shell's finest every now and then for good measure.
The cars are ran on Tesco Momentum, never any issues.

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[TrudeandDall]

What is the additive you can add yourself. Where do you get it?

BP additive was made in the EU to an exact BP specification. It was very expensive and was fully contained in loading rack systems that injected the additive into fuel at the point of loading and only in very small amounts, measured in parts per million. You certainly could not buy it anywhere.
The systems Plynchy installed ( did you work at BP Dalson, Grangemouth, Sunderland or Belfast Plynchy? ) have very tight tolerance to prevent under or overdose of the additive. If they went out of tolerance, that really buggered up a site managers day.........

 

[Bern8]

What is the additive you can add yourself. Where do you get it?

I bought some Redex diesel fuel additive from Costco when it was on offer. All car accessory shops sell it.

 

[Plynchy]

BP additive was made in the EU to an exact BP specification. It was very expensive and was fully contained in loading rack systems that injected the additive into fuel at the point of loading and only in very small amounts, measured in parts per million. You certainly could not buy it anywhere.
The systems Plynchy installed ( did you work at BP Dalson, Grangemouth, Sunderland or Belfast Plynchy? ) have very tight tolerance to prevent under or overdose of the additive. If they went out of tolerance, that really buggered up a site managers day.........

Worked almost everywhere in the SE/SW, visited Belfast a few times as well as Grangemouth.

 

[Just smiffy]

Every other tank full when it’s getting near empty and I intent to fill up for the third time I give the van an Italian tune-up plus I put a drop of miller’s additive now and again…

 

[yorkiebar]

I should really do some Italian tuning occasionally, a lot of our driving is with the auto in 9th doing 1500 rpm.

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[L' Hobo]

Since the debacle with Denby needing new injectors, DPF and two EGRs I’ve been using posh diesel and adding cleaner when I can’t find that.

Filling up the other day in the UK I did the mental arithmetic and posh diesel costs about £14 extra over a full tank. RedX diesel additive costs £3 for the same tank £6 if you double up.

Is posh diesel from a big refinery actually that much better - or at all than the tiny extra hassle of a bottle of cleaner?

On a 200ltr tank and if my mental arithmetic is right, that's an extra 14p+ a litre.
How bigs your tank because around here , it's only 5p a litre extra?

PS. I put a small bottle of Redex in mine about once every 2 months in the winter.
It certainly makes a difference!

The best advice I can give after many years of fixing, owning and operating heavy diesels is, only use the top 2/3rds of your fuel tank, the bottom third is where you will find any water and crud if there is any. Injector tips don't like dirty watered down diesel!

 

[PlacidoD]

"... The best advice I can give after many years of fixing, owning and operating heavy diesels is, only use the top 2/3rds of your fuel tank, the bottom third is where you will find any water and crud if there is any. Injector tips don't like dirty watered down diesel!"

Interesting! I tend not to run my 80 litre tank down much below 20 litres before filling up again.

Query: If I want to get rid of "crud" in the bottom 1/3rd. What is the least worst way to do it?

Dose what is left with diesel additive?
Do a run at a constant low speed on the motorway?
Do a run at a constant high speed on the motorway?
Other?

I only run the MoHo really low (under 10 litres) when about to put BP Ultimate in the tank. Seems a shame to dilute the really good stuff like that with "vin ordinaire" supermarket fuel and crud!!

However with the car I have almost always run it down to the last 5 litres or less before filling to the brim (60 litres). That is to stop the build up of crud in the first place!!

 

[gus-lopez]

Maybe different laws over there.
Here, red is for agriculture machines and small boats.
Get caught with red in your tank you're looking for a new vehicle AND a mortgage to pay the fine.
Red is exactly the same as road diesel with a red dye.
The dye is indelible so once it's been in the tank its red for life.....even if later filled with regular diesel.

No ,it is actually worse here.
Theoretically & legally you cannot buy red without either a licence, a self employed card or a business card. But ,especially in country areas ,once they know you aren't a plant, then you can buy it with cash.I assume they add it to someone elses 'usage' as sales have to tally with amounts for people legally able to buy it.

(30% France)

I try to run through without filling if I can

I do put super-unleaded

I was advised to use that in all my power tools & it definitely helps especially stopping the gumming up of the idle feed on small stuff.

I should really do some Italian tuning occasionally, a lot of our driving is with the auto in 9th doing 1500 rpm.

you should

 

[L' Hobo]

"... The best advice I can give after many years of fixing, owning and operating heavy diesels is, only use the top 2/3rds of your fuel tank, the bottom third is where you will find any water and crud if there is any. Injector tips don't like dirty watered down diesel!"

Interesting! I tend not to run my 80 litre tank down much below 20 litres before filling up again.

Query: If I want to get rid of "crud" in the bottom 1/3rd. What is the least worst way to do it?

Dose what is left with diesel additive?
Do a run at a constant low speed on the motorway?
Do a run at a constant high speed on the motorway?
Other?

I only run the MoHo really low (under 10 litres) when about to put BP Ultimate in the tank. Seems a shame to dilute the really good stuff like that with "vin ordinaire" supermarket fuel and crud!!

However with the car I have almost always run it down to the last 5 litres or less before filling to the brim (60 litres). That is to stop the build up of crud in the first place!!

Personally, I always use Esso or one of the main brands but, if I thought, after months of standing still over winter, I had accumulated crud in my tank, I would run it down to nearly empty, drain and flush.

If the tank had no drain plug, I have a large Syphon with a long pipe that I used to use to top up the final drive on big Cats. and trucks.
It hold about a gallon and comes in handy for many things but I'm sure there are other things out there?

Make sure you have at least 5galloons to put back in before go to fill up. (Don't ask me how I know!)
Not forgetting a new fuel filter of course!

 

[alex n]

Maybe different laws over there.
Here, red is for agriculture machines and small boats.
Get caught with red in your tank you're looking for a new vehicle AND a mortgage to pay the fine.
Red is exactly the same as road diesel with a red dye.
The dye is indelible so once it's been in the tank its red for life.....even if later filled with regular diesel.

I would disagree with you on that one pappajohn. I used to get 25 litre containers of red diesel from a pal of mine which I used to run my work van on from time to time and the day we got stopped and checked it was ordinary diesel it was running on. They took a sample, then returned it and told us to get on our merry way.

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[Two Rivers]

Diesel is Diesel.
The only difference is the additives which boost cetane and clean the engine.
Supermarkets add the minimum quantity whereas expensive stuff has more additives

I would’nt touch supermarket fuel, I sold a motor home to a fuel analyst some years ago, long story short, the major fuel suppliers ie BP Shell etc rely on selling fuel, their profits are largely linked to fuel, unlike Tesco and alike they don’t sell cabbages, legs of lamb.
Like pappajohn suggests they sell fuel that’s fit for purpose, supermarket fuel may comply to British standards, But BS is only a minimum standard.
Secondly, I always use E5 petrol in a motorcycle, ethanol rots petrol tanks

 

[andyman]

On a 200ltr tank and if my mental arithmetic is right, that's an extra 14p+ a litre.
How bigs your tank because around here , it's only 5p a litre extra?

PS. I put a small bottle of Redex in mine about once every 2 months in the winter.
It certainly makes a difference!

The best advice I can give after many years of fixing, owning and operating heavy diesels is, only use the top 2/3rds of your fuel tank, the bottom third is where you will find any water and crud if there is any. Injector tips don't like dirty watered down diesel!

I thought the outlet was in the bottom of the tank. It would need a float of some sort to draw off the top of the fuel.

 

[InvictaMoto]

I was going to ask a similar question as my Spanish fuel stop app mentions diesel and and diesel-plus at many stations.

 

[L' Hobo]

I thought the outlet was in the bottom of the tank. It would need a float of some sort to draw off the top of the fuel.

Although the pipe does go into the bottom of the take from the outside, it normally stick up from the floor of the tank inside a small distance so that it doesn't draw up the crud from right down on the bottom, and if it goes in the top, it stops short of the bottom by a few centimetres.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Mechanic who services my vehicles said to add Forte additive when the fuel tank was low and use premium fuel every other fill.........not tried it on the MH yet

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[andyman]

Although the pipe does go into the bottom of the take from the outside, it normally stick up from the floor of the tank inside a small distance so that it doesn't draw up the crud from right down on the bottom, and if it goes in the top, it stops short of the bottom by a few centimetres.

That’s my point, by only using the top 2/3rds you’re still drawing from near the bottom. I can’t see what difference it makes,

 

[L' Hobo]

That’s my point, by only using the top 2/3rds you’re still drawing from near the bottom. I can’t see what difference it makes,

NEAR the bottom but not ON the bottom. Water, and usually crud, is heavier than diesel and that inch can make an awful lot of difference and when that inch is exceeded, is when you really have problems.

 

[Daffy64]

There’s lots of mis information on fuels and lots of people saying they’ve used cooking oil for 20 yrs/millions of miles without issues, the fact is those engines are old school and not the engines that most of us have in our vans.

If your van is 10 yrs old or newer then you have a fairly complex fuel system that wont tolerate poor fuel for very long, as has already been said all fuel sold has to meet EN590 spec for Diesel, the fact is that this is a minimum std so even the cheapest fuel should achieve this.

The better fuels (think branded) far exceed the minimum std, this is particularly important where lubricity is concerned as Diesel, in it’s raw state is no longer a lubricant so it needs lubricity enhancers to protect the moving parts of your fuel system, the better the fuel the better quality additive pack - this applies to all of the additives that help fuels deal with other issues such as water etc etc.

It may have changed since I was heavily involved in fuels but the Bio aspect of EN590 fuel must be 7% (hence the B7 classification) but the rules were (and probably still are) that 7% of the diesel fuel leaving a refinery over a period must be bio rather than all fuel leaving the refinery must be 7% bio - there is a difference.

Bio fuels are usually from a FAME base stock that meets EN14214 (I think) and are made from organic materials which over time release the water content, thats why Diesel doesn't keep like it used to. Interestingly the MOD had bunkers of Diesel from the 1950’s and 60’s, it was still a useable diesel fuel that an older engine would be quite happy to run on.

The 7% in B7 in practice means that some fuels come out with very little Bio and some come out with more than the 7%, think about it - if you manufactured fuel and you had to put something with your fuel that lowered your quality would you put it in fuel that you sold through your own retail outlets (or those of other fuel manufacturers that supplied you fuel in other locations) or would you sell it to competitors who didn’t supply you with fuel and whose core business wasn’t fuel.

We did a survey where our field teams took fuel samples from lots of pumps around the country, we put the fuels in a locker and left them to see what would happen, after 3 or 4 months some had settled and began to separate, the worst of which was about 40% clear liquid with 60% golden liquid floating on the top, it was assumed that the clear liquid was water and the golden liquid was Diesel although we never tested it- what struck me was the fact that none of the Branded fuels changed their appearance at all.

We had relationships with all the fuel manufacturers in the UK as both customer and supplier, during discussions with chemists and senior staff no one was surprised at what we found.

Another discussion with the distribution manager of a major fuel supplier told me that he could put 20,000 ltrs of milk into a busy keyfuels bunker like the one at South Mimms and be long gone before anyone worked out there was a problem. This was a discussion about how they would get rid of fuel that was past it’s best - it was stressed that they wouldn’t do that though…

Its a long ramble but my take on the fuel question is that theres no need to buy premium diesel and if you buy branded fuel from a fuel supplier you wont go far wrong, if you buy it from someone who does fuel as a sideline then eventually you could have a problem but it probably wont be related to the fuel in the tank at that moment.

Personally I would buy supermarket fuel if it was all I could get and as long as it was going to be used fairly quickly. i would never buy it if I had a choice - all in my own personal opinion of course, anyone reading this far should do what they feel is best.

 

[Plynchy]

Interesting post.
I've also been on a few place that have their own FAME blenders, and that's post refinery delivery, pre road tanker.
Horrible stuff.

 

[TrudeandDall]

Exc

There’s lots of mis information on fuels and lots of people saying they’ve used cooking oil for 20 yrs/millions of miles without issues, the fact is those engines are old school and not the engines that most of us have in our vans.

If your van is 10 yrs old or newer then you have a fairly complex fuel system that wont tolerate poor fuel for very long, as has already been said all fuel sold has to meet EN590 spec for Diesel, the fact is that this is a minimum std so even the cheapest fuel should achieve this.

The better fuels (think branded) far exceed the minimum std, this is particularly important where lubricity is concerned as Diesel, in it’s raw state is no longer a lubricant so it needs lubricity enhancers to protect the moving parts of your fuel system, the better the fuel the better quality additive pack - this applies to all of the additives that help fuels deal with other issues such as water etc etc.

It may have changed since I was heavily involved in fuels but the Bio aspect of EN590 fuel must be 7% (hence the B7 classification) but the rules were (and probably still are) that 7% of the diesel fuel leaving a refinery over a period must be bio rather than all fuel leaving the refinery must be 7% bio - there is a difference.

Bio fuels are usually from a FAME base stock that meets EN14214 (I think) and are made from organic materials which over time release the water content, thats why Diesel doesn't keep like it used to. Interestingly the MOD had bunkers of Diesel from the 1950’s and 60’s, it was still a useable diesel fuel that an older engine would be quite happy to run on.

The 7% in B7 in practice means that some fuels come out with very little Bio and some come out with more than the 7%, think about it - if you manufactured fuel and you had to put something with your fuel that lowered your quality would you put it in fuel that you sold through your own retail outlets (or those of other fuel manufacturers that supplied you fuel in other locations) or would you sell it to competitors who didn’t supply you with fuel and whose core business wasn’t fuel.

We did a survey where our field teams took fuel samples from lots of pumps around the country, we put the fuels in a locker and left them to see what would happen, after 3 or 4 months some had settled and began to separate, the worst of which was about 40% clear liquid with 60% golden liquid floating on the top, it was assumed that the clear liquid was water and the golden liquid was Diesel although we never tested it- what struck me was the fact that none of the Branded fuels changed their appearance at all.

We had relationships with all the fuel manufacturers in the UK as both customer and supplier, during discussions with chemists and senior staff no one was surprised at what we found.

Another discussion with the distribution manager of a major fuel supplier told me that he could put 20,000 ltrs of milk into a busy keyfuels bunker like the one at South Mimms and be long gone before anyone worked out there was a problem. This was a discussion about how they would get rid of fuel that was past it’s best - it was stressed that they wouldn’t do that though…

Its a long ramble but my take on the fuel question is that theres no need to buy premium diesel and if you buy branded fuel from a fuel supplier you wont go far wrong, if you buy it from someone who does fuel as a sideline then eventually you could have a problem but it probably wont be related to the fuel in the tank at that moment.

Personally I would buy supermarket fuel if it was all I could get and as long as it was going to be used fairly quickly. i would never buy it if I had a choice - all in my own personal opinion of course, anyone reading this far should do what they feel is best.

excellent info Daffy !

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