Going tubeless

[kevenh]

Road bikes have three tyre fit methods:
From Cycling weekly dot com

Types of road bike tyre

There are three types of bike tyres on the market – clinchers, tubulars and tubeless – they each have their pros and cons:

Clincher road bike tyres
First up is the clincher, the choice of the majority of road riders. This features a bead around the outside of the tyre which hooks under a lip on the rim, with a separate inner tube running inside. The main advantage of this system is convenience, with the inner tube being easy to change in the event of a puncture.

Tubular tyres road bike tyres
Next is the tubular tyre. With this design the inner tube is sewn into the tyre, with the whole thing then attached to the wheel using glue or rim tape. This is the choice of a lot of racers due to the generally lower rolling resistance and weight, but can be impractical when you puncture.

Tubeless road bike tyres
Finally you’ve got tubeless tyres. These are similar to clinchers, but with the tyre sitting firmly enough against the rim to hold the tyre’s pressure, eliminating the need for an inner tube all together. The tyre is then filled with sealant, which plugs cuts or gashes in the rubber.

This system greatly reduces the chance of punctures, although the snug fit that is required between the tyre and the rim can make tubeless tyres fiddly to fit.

I haven’t looked at going tubeless on my road bike. I may get around to it ?
Edit: my MTB can be very muddy when it has a puncture. With my road bike it’ll usually be dry ?

 

[Terry242]

May have missed it some where. But do road bike have tubeless tyres.
Looking for a new bike here

Yes.

Tubeless Technology | Schwalbe

Tubeless ist die Reifentechnologie für performanceorientierte Radfahrer! Das gilt für den Einsatz am Mountain- und Gravelbike und insbesondere auch am Rennrad.

www.schwalbe.com

Terry

 

[Lanerboy]

Lanerboy what type of riding do you do.

Just wondering what punishment your tubeless solution takes

Hi i use my MTB for all sorts of different riding from going from my motorhome on site to the local village
Then also riding the trails in the peaks to doing the monkey run over cannock chase
I have had punctures and i slways carry a pump with me BUT the good thing is like a few days ago i was on the canal towpath and got a thorn in my front tyre that stayed in there.
I didnt notice it until it had gone down a fair bit i then stopped and pulled out the thorn, pumped the tyre back up then by just riding the bike it sealed its self again and i carried on for the rest of the ride
Which ever way you do it tubeless is the way to go its fantastic if you get it right and by doing it the way i do to make my wheels 100% air tight costs aboy £3 for a cheap 24" tube

 

[Paddywack]

Hi i use my MTB for all sorts of different riding from going from my motorhome on site to the local village
Then also riding the trails in the peaks to doing the monkey run over cannock chase
I have had punctures and i slways carry a pump with me BUT the good thing is like a few days ago i was on the canal towpath and got a thorn in my front tyre that stayed in there.
I didnt notice it until it had gone down a fair bit i then stopped and pulled out the thorn, pumped the tyre back up then by just riding the bike it sealed its self again and i carried on for the rest of the ride
Which ever way you do it tubeless is the way to go its fantastic if you get it right and by doing it the way i do to make my wheels 100% air tight costs aboy £3 for a cheap 24" tube

But you are adding quite a bit of weight to the wheel and wheels are where you want less mass:

"
A pound on the wheels is worth two on the frame’, or so they say. That conventional wisdom has governed the approach to wheel selection for many cyclists – if ever there was a place to splash the cash to shave a few grams, it’s the wheels.

But as is often the case with conventional wisdom, we're far from happy to leave it at that.

The idea that the weight of a wheelset is more important than any other part of the bike rests on the fact that the wheels are moving more than any other part of the bike.

Andy Ruina, professor of mechanical engineering at Cornell University, puts it quite simply: ‘The top of the wheel is going twice as fast as the bicycle is. And the opposing direction [the bottom of the wheel] doesn’t cancel out that speed.

'Consequently it has twice as much kinetic energy so it takes twice as much force to get it going and it makes the bike slow down twice as much.’

Weight is so important in the grand scheme of bicycle movement because of its relationship with acceleration. When something is moving at a constant speed, all the forces pushing it and slowing it down are in equilibrium.

A reasonable increase in weight will make no difference, save for any slight increase in friction or rolling resistance it might cause.

When picking up or losing speed, though, Newton’s second law comes into effect: force = mass x acceleration. So the more mass you have, the more force you need to pick up speed.

So why, then, does it make an ounce of difference whether the weight is on a wheel rather than a frame?

Here’s where it gets a little complicated, thanks to inertia. Inertia is the resistance of an object to a change in its motion – it’s the reason why it would take effort to accelerate a bike even in a frictionless universe.

Wheels, bike and rider all have inertia, but with wheels the effect is magnified because they are rotating.

Steve Williams, Lotus’s top vehicle dynamics engineer, says, ‘In the case of a wheel, because you have a lot of mass distributed around the rim, some distance from the centre of the wheel, that gives it inertia.’

That inertia essentially means a resistance to the wheel being rotated. It’s sometimes called rotational inertia but, more accurately, it’s referred to as a moment of inertia.

Williams adds, ‘Because a bike is rolling on its wheels, you’ve not only got to push that mass through the air faster but you’ve also got to make the wheel go around faster. The wheel’s inertia will resist the increase in rate of rotation.’]

Crucially, though, that inertia is determined by the distance of a mass from the centre of rotation: ‘A moment of inertia is the result of a mass at a distance from the axis about which it is being rotated – in the case of a wheel it is the distance of the mass from the spindle axis.’

All this scientific talk brings us to the nub of the matter. It’s not enough to say that a heavy wheel is more of a hindrance than a heavy frame because it all depends on where that weight is distributed on the wheel.

It’s too simplistic to state that ‘a pound on the wheels is worth two on the frame’. Professor Jim Papadopoulis, author of Cycling Science, says, ‘It works out that a bit of mass right at the circumference gets counted twice, a bit of mass at the centre of the spoke 1.5 times, and a bit of mass at the hub gets counted once.’

On that basis, we should adapt the phrase to say ‘a pound on the rims is worth two on the hubs’, but Williams at Lotus is sceptical about the stated gains to be made from lighter rims.

‘We can see that reducing the wheel inertia has a beneficial effect over reducing non-rotating mass, but it is very small. In reality, mass saved from the rims of wheels is likely to be less than 10% more beneficial than the same mass saved from the rest of the bike.’

Some pretty complex calculations reveal that the advantage in terms of acceleration from cutting weight from the wheel rims would be 0.9%, as opposed to 0.8% when cutting weight from the frame.

If the gains to made from cutting the weight of the spinning mass on your bike is open to debate, the next area to consider is gyroscopics.

A gyroscope is a wheel or disc that spins around an axis in such a way that it stabilises itself. That’s because of the effects of angular momentum – as the top point of a wheel begins to pull it down to the right, for instance, once the wheel has rotated half a turn, that same point of the wheel is upside down and suddenly pushing the wheel back to the left.

The gyroscopic effect of spinning is the reason why a spinning top stays upright, and the reason why bike wheels play a role in keeping us upright.

Because a gyroscope works on that basic principle of angular forces, the weight at the outermost part of the wheel is the most influential to the stabilising force of the wheel. So, if a rim is heavier, it may push a wheel back upright with a stronger force, surely?

Ruina at Cornell University paints a murky picture of the scientific consensus: ‘There’s not a definitive answer to whether a heavier rim is more stable. But the trend seems to be that a bigger gyroscope feels more stable.’

So that hints that a heavier rim, rather than an overall heavier wheel, could offer more stability.

But there’s another angle to consider. Williams says, ‘A higher inertia wheel would have a more powerful gyroscopic effect, however there is a second gyroscopic effect – the faster the handlebars are steered, the greater the gyroscopic resistance to being turned. So high inertia makes it more difficult to turn the handlebars and lean the bike.’

A heavy rim will make you more stable as you ride, but may sacrifice the type of agility that freer, quicker steering might enable"

 

[Lanerboy]

But you are adding quite a bit of weight to the wheel and wheels are where you want less mass:

"
A pound on the wheels is worth two on the frame’, or so they say.

I weigh near on 17 stone the bikes are ebikes and weigh 25kg each, so a few ounces on each wheel will not make much difference to me personally, and the no puncture aspect out weighs the extra weight 10 fold in my eyes

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[Paddywack]

I weigh near on 17 stone the bikes are ebikes and weigh 25kg each, so a few ounces on each wheel will not make much difference to me personally, and the no puncture aspect out weighs the extra weight 10 fold in my eyes

Don't get me wrong I was a convert to tubeless, originally (8 years+) on the gravel bike with Stans and then five years moving to "proper" wheels and tyres - the rolling difference between the two was noticeable but that's peddle powered not electric. A couple of years ago I upgraded the "best"road bike and again the expenditure was worth it - particularly when you see them cutting the hedges around here!

 

[Silver-Fox]

I know you can buy tubeless tyres but is that a must.
Are you ok with standard tyres.

 

[kevenh]

I know you can buy tubeless tyres but is that a must.
Are you ok with standard tyres.

You can find instructions on going tubeless with or without the “correct” rim & wheel (like this one).

I was lucky. My MTB came with the four key tubeless ready parts: tyres, rim, wide rim tape, and valves.
I just needed the sealant (I used Stans notube)
So I can’t comment on your chance of success.
OK, I’ll try. Fair to middling?

 

[Landy Andy]

What is the benefit of tubeless tyres?

i was getting lots of punctures on my mountain bike. Fitted slime anti puncture inner tubes, and anti puncture tyres, and have never had a puncture in the three years since.

 

[PhilMary]

I know you can buy tubeless tyres but is that a must.
Are you ok with standard tyres.

Yes you are ok with tubed tyres.
I ride mountain bike, gravel bike, road bike, tandem and recumbent bikes. I seem to recall only two punctures in the last 12 months. I ride around 5k to 7k miles a year.
Phil

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[jumar]

What is the benefit of tubeless tyres?

i was getting lots of punctures on my mountain bike. Fitted slime anti puncture inner tubes, and anti puncture tyres, and have never had a puncture in the three years since.

How do I see the benefit of tubeless over tubed tyre set up, well three advantages, lighter, not too much a problem with a MTB or even a eBike but an advantage for roadies who feel the need to save a gram or two....self sealing of minor punctures like thorns, and easy to repair on the go with a plugging kit for larger holes...without the need to remove wheel, tyre etc....the main advantage is to be able to ride with low pressure where grip is needed, this can sometimes lead to "Snakebites" (pinch punctures) on tyres with tubes....

 

[Silver-Fox]

Thanks all

I’ve decided to get a Stans conversion kit.
Added it all up and it saves a couple of quid.

My wheels are tubeless ready so no need to go down the inner tube conversion route.

I’ll see how I get on doing the change and how it rides ?

Quick question how do you tubeless guys go about topping up your Stans or what ever you use ?

 

[andy63]

how do you tubeless guys go about topping up your Stans or what ever you use ?

Hi.. Get yourself a small syringe and some tube that fits the valve housing when the core is removed..
And I use a fine stick.. Something like a wooden keba stick that will fit through the valve housing again with core removed ..that way you can use it ASA dip stick to check the level of sealant in the tyre every now and then..

 

[Silver-Fox]

Hi.. Get yourself a small syringe and some tube that fits the valve housing when the core is removed..
And I use a fine stick.. Something like a wooden keba stick that will fit through the valve housing again with core removed ..that way you can use it ASA dip stick to check the level of sealant in the tyre every now and then..
View attachment 386679

Thanks for that.
I’m wondering what happens with the fluid already in the tyre.

Wont it think there is a puncture where the valve is and try to seal it up ?

 

[andy63]

Thanks for that.
I’m wondering what happens with the fluid already in the tyre.

Wont it think there is a puncture where the valve is and try to seal it up ?

It could I suppose.. But with the tyre deflated carefully by depressing the valve when the valve is lowermost and all the fluid pooled in the bottom of the tyre you will then be able to remove the valve core.. And add more fluid or dip to see what's in the tyre when its pooled in the bottom ..
If you were to release the air quickly and shake the fluid about as you were doing so it would attempt to seal the valve as you were releasing the air..
I have read that some sealants require you to pop the seal on the tyre to add fluid bthat way because they will attempt to seal the small tube or opening you are using to fill through the valve... But that hasn't happened to me yet..
Andy..

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[Paddywack]

Mavic has just gone into administration so expect some bargains in the future.

 

[Silver-Fox]

It could I suppose.. But with the tyre deflated carefully by depressing the valve when the valve is lowermost and all the fluid pooled in the bottom of the tyre you will then be able to remove the valve core.. And add more fluid or dip to see what's in the tyre when its pooled in the bottom ..
If you were to release the air quickly and shake the fluid about as you were doing so it would attempt to seal the valve as you were releasing the air..
I have read that some sealants require you to pop the seal on the tyre to add fluid bthat way because they will attempt to seal the small tube or opening you are using to fill through the valve... But that hasn't happened to me yet..
Andy..

Thank you ?

 

[Wanderlust]

There is some really good info on setting up for tubeless on the embn YouTube channel as well.

 

[Silver-Fox]

I’ve had one of those moments where I’m doubting wether or not to go tubeless.

Or stick some stans into the tubes.
My main concern is if I run the tyre off the rim and can’t inflate it back on.

I know with a tube the tyre will always seat back on.

Bearing in mind I’m not going to buy tubeless tyres ?

 

[Paddywack]

I’ve had one of those moments where I’m doubting wether or not to go tubeless.

Or stick some stans into the tubes.
My main concern is if I run the tyre off the rim and can’t inflate it back on.

I know with a tube the tyre will always seat back on.

Bearing in mind I’m not going to buy tubeless tyres ?

Before my full conversion when I was running Stans I still used proper tubeless tyres, I would not risk a normal tyre.

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[andy63]

I’ve had one of those moments where I’m doubting wether or not to go tubeless.

Or stick some stans into the tubes.
My main concern is if I run the tyre off the rim and can’t inflate it back on.

I know with a tube the tyre will always seat back on.

Bearing in mind I’m not going to buy tubeless tyres ?

Lol.. What you propose sounds reasonable based on comments by folk in posts earlier who run that system?
Unless you try it you will never know..
And what sort of riding do you do..
It would have to be pretty severe or very carless to dislodge a well seated bead that had been running with sealant in it..
Anyhows good luck with your chosen route
?
Andy

 

[Silver-Fox]

Thanks guys.

Trail riding varying between rock/roots and wooded area.

Plenty of thorns as I found out the other day.
I ride at a reasonable pace going down but not fast ?

Having got a puncture Secound time out on the bike I had to walk home.
Couldn’t figure out how to change the pump head to Presta.
Didn’t I feel a knob when I sorted it at home

I know what a pain it was when I changed tyres on a trials bike.
Trying to get the bead to seat was a night mare.
Usually had to go to the garage for the quick burst of air.
Mind you I can resent wheel barrow tyres the Icelandic way now ?

 

[kevenh]

Usually had to go to the garage for the quick burst of air.

A track pump for your garage/home workshop can provide the quick burst of air.

And if you do go tubeless and later on a ride have the misfortune of losing a lot of air from a tyre you can use a co2 pump to get a rapid re-inflation.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Thanks for all the info.

I feel like a bloody pendulum ?

Now I’m defo going tubeless.
I didn’t realise the tyres, already fitted, are tubeless ready.

The rear is so so but the front good, both bobby nic.

The good front is going on the rear.
A magic Mary is going on the front.

Then I’ll be good to go.

Ive ordered a track pump along with c02 etc

I love buying new stuff ?

 

[MattR]

Thanks for all the info.

I feel like a bloody pendulum ?

Now I’m defo going tubeless.
I didn’t realise the tyres, already fitted, are tubeless ready.

The rear is so so but the front good, both bobby nic.

The good front is going on the rear.
A magic Mary is going on the front.

Then I’ll be good to go.

Ive ordered a track pump along with c02 etc

I love buying new stuff ?

You might consider a flash pump for tubeless if you didn't already:

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[bigtree]

Thanks for all the info.

I feel like a bloody pendulum ?

Now I’m defo going tubeless.
I didn’t realise the tyres, already fitted, are tubeless ready.

The rear is so so but the front good, both bobby nic.

The good front is going on the rear.
A magic Mary is going on the front.

Then I’ll be good to go.

Ive ordered a track pump along with c02 etc

I love buying new stuff ?

That’s what combination I’m riding.

 

[Paddywack]

You might consider a flash pump for tubeless if you didn't already:

For not much more money I find this more useful, can also be used for motorhome tyres and for cleaning bike down - wash and then blast any moisture away.

Stanley B6CC304SCR523 24Ltr Electric Compressor with 5 Piece Accessory Kit 230V - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Lightweight and portable compressor for long term performance. Features easy-start motor, anti-vibration foot, easy-adjust regulator and easy-drain valve. Suitable for DIY and light trade applications. Supplied with spiral hose, blow gun, inflating gun, gravity...

www.screwfix.com

 

[MattR]

For not much more money I find this more useful, can also be used for motorhome tyres and for cleaning bike down - wash and then blast any moisture away.

Stanley B6CC304SCR523 24Ltr Electric Compressor with 5 Piece Accessory Kit 230V - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Lightweight and portable compressor for long term performance. Features easy-start motor, anti-vibration foot, easy-adjust regulator and easy-drain valve. Suitable for DIY and light trade applications. Supplied with spiral hose, blow gun, inflating gun, gravity...

www.screwfix.com

I've not tried then using a compressor but have seen flash pumps being used - they are pumped up to quite a high pressure and then the air is released into the tyre very quickly - far faster than a CO2 canister or pump and this helps set the tyre.

 

[kevenh]

I've not tried then using a compressor but have seen flash pumps being used - they are pumped up to quite a high pressure and then the air is released into the tyre very quickly - far faster than a CO2 canister or pump and this helps set the tyre.

I haven’t found my basic track pump or CO2 slow at reseating tubeless tyres but I like cheap and effective ???

 

[MattR]

I haven’t found my basic track pump or CO2 slow at reseating tubeless tyres but I like cheap and effective ???

So do I but I've seen a few tyres that would not reseat until the a flash pump was used - the mechanics at the LBS I spend a reasonable amount of time use this type: https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/...ntrager-tlr-flash-charger-floor-pump/p/11881/

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