Full time through winter in search of new life

[dawsey]

Exactly this.

The business is solvent despite the current owners best efforts, and camping and motorhoming is not going to go out of fashion any time soon. You will be able to pick and choose which bits to improve to suit, and you understand your customer having lived full time in a van.

Its about as good as it gets - looking forward to seeing this place fly

Why thank you sir. At last!

Also to add that I and later we have been wild motorhoming 30yrs and would never have considered a campsite until we got broken into and robbed in Rome. That was many years ago, and after, occasionally, we discovered the luxury, security, comfort and relaxation that a proper campsite provides.

One of the reasons I joined this forum was to understand what we would need to do to persuade more older, affluent folks in the really nice camper vans or motorhomes (with space and all facilities) to come pay to stay on a campsite in France when there are so many cheap aires and even more free aires and easy wildcamping. Yes, affluent, generally retired or semi retired UK and other Northern European motorhomers would likely make up just a tiny fraction of our potential customer base but every little helps. Most campers staying here, on the ‘naked pitches’ (french term, nothing to do with naturism) are families in caravans, trailer tents, tents, VW camper vans.

There’s an endless supply of potential visitors as it’s close to the biggest transit routes. It is, in effect, partly at least a giant aire de camping car already. And I like that.

 

[68c]

How does this compare in price and effort to setting up a completely new campsite.

 

[dawsey]

How does this compare in price and effort to setting up a completely new campsite.

Similar I would expect. The difference is cash flow, this already has it, doesn’t need to build up over years, with most likely zero in the first two years. Also permissions. Assuming you will eventually get yes as an answer ( becoming ever harder, France isn’t the backhander to the mayor planning free for all it used to be) to your planning application for land change of use, that process might also take years.

 

[mikebeaches]

Similar I would expect. The difference is cash flow, this already has it, doesn’t need to build up over years, with most likely zero in the first two years. Also permissions. Assuming you will eventually get yes as an answer ( becoming ever harder, France isn’t the backhander to the mayor planning free for all it used to be) to your planning application for land change of use, that process might also take years.

Although not especially knowledgeable on the subject, I'd agree that securing planning approval for a brand new camping venture would probably be the single biggest hurdle.

Whereas, acquiring an established business, it is a non-issue.

 

[monzer]

Ignore the MHF boo boys. Seems like you know what you are doing and are prepared for it. The place maybe quiet sometimes but is still getting customers and if it doesn't work out you can buy a surf board, move to the beach and become a beach bum.

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[olley]

Some would never take a risk in their lives, others thrive on it.
You seem to know exactly what your doing so no risk at all.

 

[dawsey]

Ignore the MHF boo boys. Seems like you know what you are doing and are prepared for it. The place maybe quiet sometimes but is still getting customers and if it doesn't work out you can buy a surf board, move to the beach and become a beach bum.

Ahh, for me it’s become a beach bum again.. The long tousled blonde hair is long gone and the old bod definitely ain’t what it used to be, I don’t think I could pull ‘the look’ off anymore

 

[corconx]

Remind me please we’re you having any nice new statics. Reason I ask is we’ve just sold our motorhome after 33 years as age (77/80) catching up and costs rising too much. Mind you I hanker after your old Hymer Over the years we’ve had two of them.

you say you’re near all transit - so airport nearby. I am behind you with fingers and toes crossed

carol

 

[dawsey]

Remind me please we’re you having any nice new statics. Reason I ask is we’ve just sold our motorhome after 33 years as age (77/80) catching up and costs rising too much. Mind you I hanker after your old Hymer Over the years we’ve had two of them.

you say you’re near all transit - so airport nearby. I am behind you with fingers and toes crossed

carol

Sure. There will be a total of 18 new statics within 18 months. Dishwashers, air con, very posh. We are going to keep and best we can tart up the best 12 of the old ones as lower cost options. There’s going to be lots of glamping options too.

We are in process of submitting our application to the mairie to increase the number of pitches by 30-40% by adding mini pitches. We think we can do this without spoiling the feel.

 

[dawsey]

Feedback from another bank, it’s not good. I don’t think this one wants the business. close to 5%.

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[Figaro]

What is your target 3.7% ?
What happens if you can't achieve this ?

 

[Carpmart]

It’s a very strange picture you paint. I am very conflicted. I remain entertained (highly) by your posts (I’m not sure if this is the correct reaction to your situation) yet on the other hand, I wish I could shake your hand for the mahoosive cahoners you’ve got, then I flip to just feeling slightly nauseated at the volume of work you’ve got and the risk/reward ratio of what you’re taking on!

Bon chance and all that, but IMHO, your mad!!

 

[dawsey]

What is your target 3.7% ?
What happens if you can't achieve this ?

Previous answer to the same question was that we would try harder. Part of the ‘trying harder’ was expand the applications to another bank meaning that 5 seperate independent business loan applications have been made with 5 banks on the same property/buisiness (it’s a separate loan product for the land and the business ‘murs and fonds’, so it’s ten applications for money). That’s five introductory phone calls, five business plan and application pack formal submissions, five 2-3 hour ‘introductory getting to know you meetings’ and full plan reviews with junior numpties in the local branches, who all, due to the amounts, and the fact that it’s a business loan, and other stuff (like the fact that I am a foreigner) have to pass the application up to head office for further analysis and approval in principle. After (possibly) five further meetings (had one already, it yielded an offer of 4.1) with senior staff who have actually made the decision on whether to make an offer, because they like to make it in person. To say it’s a long, slow and painful process would be understatement. And now most key staff have gone on holiday for a month. They tell us our timing is very inconvenient for them. We offer them our apologies for bothering them while they are planning/going off on their month long holidays. Maybe some are holidaying in this campsite… ? Somehow I doubt it. The decision making head office higher fliers will be off scuba diving in French Indochina (as it’s still called) and the really big boys and girls will be off to Tahiti & French Polynesia. Maybe I should have offered to show them where the best dive sites are (or used to be).

Getting the mortgage is not the end, French banks cannot/do not automatically secure loans on property or businesses directly. Security is outsourced. It has to be done by a third party, and there are 3 options, the most common being a ‘hypotek’ a legal document drawn up by a lawyer (at huge cost, of course) which basically says the bank has a charge on the property. All stuff that is just part of the ‘mortgage’ in English speaking countries. There are other options to secure the borrowing (eg capped repayment insurance) but they are even slower to organise, more complicated and for the amounts would need to be negotiated. Then there is the mandatory life insurance and medical insurance. With no French history records, UK records no longer shared (see posts on getting the S1), my life insurance quotes have become a bit ‘problematic’. The only relatively easy bit is setting up the required medical cover, the French NHS is a hybrid system, the state covers most stuff, all core, reactive treatment, accident and children’s stuff, but each individual must have insurance for more elective stuff like hip replacements and dentistry. The costs are to be borne by the business.

In the end, we will get what we will get, and we will be confident that we’ve done all possible to minimise the cost. It does introduce higher risks though, as so much more of the earnings will have to go on servicing debt.

We will always be able to renegotiate when things settle down. We are well into a new era of permanently low interest rates and low economic growth that is becoming the hallmark of mature economies and started with the one that got there first, Japan. Rates will come back down I am certain. The current high rates are nobody’s fault, save perhaps government’s around the world unpreparedness and mishandling of the pandemic and maybe Vladimir Putin’s wet dreams of reconstituting the USSR.

 

[dawsey]

Ignore the MHF boo boys. Seems like you know what you are doing and are prepared for it. The place maybe quiet sometimes but is still getting customers and if it doesn't work out you can buy a surf board, move to the beach and become a beach bum.

Ha, thanks Monzer. We don’t see them as boo boys (or boo ladies and gents ). Just decent concerned folk who are sometimes past the time of doing something all new, taking on work, risk etc, thus have a completely different perspective. It’s great to hear everyone’s opinions, sometimes a snippet pops up that we just hadn’t considered

 

[Figaro]

Hats off to you, you must have the patience of a saint to negotiate the french beaurocracy.
I think I'd have thrown the towel in by now and become that beach bum you spoke of with a surf board and a bottle of rum.
I hope things go well for you both.

When do you expect to be able to identify the site for us to have a nosey at ?

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[dawsey]

Some would never take a risk in their lives, others thrive on it.
You seem to know exactly what your doing so no risk at all.

Bea would argue that most of the time I don’t have a clue what I’m doing…. - thankfully I have her to keep my feet planted and my dreams realistic.

 

[dawsey]

We’ve promised the owner that we won’t put anything in the public domain until we complete. He seems concerned that his staff might become demotivated, though I don’t see how they could be more ineffective or demotivated, especially the cleaners. Watching the gardener is also very relaxing. He seems a really nice guy but my word I’ve never seen anyone move so slow.

The cook seems to be the one he is most worried about, the owner would be very damaged if he lost his cook at this point as it would likely be difficult to replace and train up another one in time, there’s only 6 weeks of the season left.

 

[Brains]

We’ve promised the owner that we won’t put anything in the public domain until we complete. He seems concerned that his staff might become demotivated, though I don’t see how they could be more ineffective or demotivated, especially the cleaners. Watching the gardener is also very relaxing. He seems a really nice guy but my word I’ve never seen anyone move so slow.

The cook seems to be the one he is most worried about, the owner would be very damaged if he lost his cook at this point as it would likely be difficult to replace and train up another one in time, there’s only 6 weeks of the season left.

Cooks (sorry, Chiefs) are notoriously fickle characters.

They all know that they can leave a job today and get a better job tomorrow, as every eating establishment always needs a decent cook.

A mate of mine used to run three golf based hotels in Norfolk (so tended to be small upmarket grey haired parties). He got fed up with cooks storming out of the kitchen, usually in the middle of service on a Friday night.

So he enrolled on a three week Cordon Blu cooking course and the next time the cook stormed out mid-service, he simply said 'OK' and took over, much to the amazement of the rest of the kitchen staff.

In order to keep a good cook and Maitre'd I'd be inclined to 'franchise' out your restaurant to a good couple and let them deal with the staff issues.
It means you simply take a rent and a percentage of the profits, and let them deal with the rest.
If it does not work after a couple of years, then you terminate the deal and either find other people, or run it yourself.

Basically it means you get rid of a whole load of problems. Unless you have run a kitchen and restaurant before, its not a job you want to take on with your other major responsibilities.

 

[dawsey]

Cooks (sorry, Chiefs) are notoriously fickle characters.

They all know that they can leave a job today and get a better job tomorrow, as every eating establishment always needs a decent cook.

A mate of mine used to run three golf based hotels in Norfolk (so tended to be small upmarket grey haired parties). He got fed up with cooks storming out of the kitchen, usually in the middle of service on a Friday night.

So he enrolled on a three week Cordon Blu cooking course and the next time the cook stormed out mid-service, he simply said 'OK' and took over, much to the amazement of the rest of the kitchen staff.

In order to keep a good cook and Maitre'd I'd be inclined to 'franchise' out your restaurant to a good couple and let them deal with the staff issues.
It means you simply take a rent and a percentage of the profits, and let them deal with the rest.
If it does not work after a couple of years, then you terminate the deal and either find other people, or run it yourself.

Basically it means you get rid of a whole load of problems. Unless you have run a kitchen and restaurant before, its not a job you want to take on with your other major responsibilities.

Brains, as ever, with some pretty inciteful stuff. Whoever nicknames you brains was deffo on the money.

All the above had been considered deeply. The operation used to operate as outlined, but 2 fully seperate businesses, restaurant open year round and to public. One of the businesses has closed due to the big C diagnosed and rapidly ending badly. Therefore, sadly, there’s opportunity, either to do it ourselves, or as you suggest. The fonds are valueless due to 2yr no accounts. Very sad for those involved. We have been working the angles for months, including employing the remaining partner in a manner you suggest, should, once mourning is concluded they wish to continue in the same vein.

Question is, Would you?

 

[davidroxburgh]

Hi I have followed your thread with interest fear and admiration! I see no point in telling you you may be unwise. You are way beyond that!

I only want to say that when you do complete then we would want to come partly to see if the chef really was that bad and mostly to support you! I think there will be many more Funsters wanting to support you.

I appreciate that lots of one night stops en route to the South West are not huge business but every little helps. Everyone likes to know a site owner. I remember a UK owned site in the Pyrenees whose business was substantially built up from the simple fact that the owner was known and felt as a friend.

So hang on in there battle to get your finance so the contract becomes unconditional and even if you open in September/ October you should get steady one night trade from Funsters going South West.

We wish you the best of luck and the support of Fun. David & Penny

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[chaser]

Right, allegedly you have sold up and got a million pounds and a motorhome, as far as we can see you are in your fifties with no kids.
Why the hell do you want to tie yourselves to 3 million mortgage to work yourself to death on a white elephant into a retirement that you could do now?
Crazy

 

[Ernesto]

Right, allegedly you have sold up and got a million pounds and a motorhome, as far as we can see you are in your fifties with no kids.
Why the hell do you want to tie yourselves to 3 million mortgage to work yourself to death on a white elephant into a retirement that you could do now?
Crazy

The OP's motivations seem to worry you so much...are you a frustrated campsite owner in disguise ?

 

[dawsey]

Hi I have followed your thread with interest fear and admiration! I see no point in telling you you may be unwise. You are way beyond that!

I only want to say that when you do complete then we would want to come partly to see if the chef really was that bad and mostly to support you! I think there will be many more Funsters wanting to support you.

I appreciate that lots of one night stops en route to the South West are not huge business but every little helps. Everyone likes to know a site owner. I remember a UK owned site in the Pyrenees whose business was substantially built up from the simple fact that the owner was known and felt as a friend.

So hang on in there battle to get your finance so the contract becomes unconditional and even if you open in September/ October you should get steady one night trade from Funsters going South West.

We wish you the best of luck and the support of Fun. David & Penny

Thank you David and Penny. Assuming all goes through, the site will still close at the end of the season as normal. We won’t be opening for business until next April at earliest. We need time to get some stuff done, about 50 mature stink trees to take down for a start, clear a section of woodland for putting our glamping tents in, and start planting other stuff. It’s certainly a different scale of gardening to what we’ve been used to. Building project one is 3 smallish new shower blocks.

I need to quick as possible find myself a tractor hopefully with some implements, a trailer, a decent cherry picker etc. The site comes with mini digger which will be doing some digging. We still trying ti work out how to level the pitches without making the ground too soft for all you people in your heavyweight motorhomes, they do so often make a mess of sloping wet grass.

 

[dawsey]

The OP's motivations seem to worry you so much...are you a frustrated campsite owner in disguise ?

Hah, maybe Chaser a tad peeved that we won’t take his repeated advice to become the next Dick and Amber…

 

[Brains]

Thank you David and Penny. Assuming all goes through, the site will still close at the end of the season as normal. We won’t be opening for business until next April at earliest. We need time to get some stuff done, about 50 mature stink trees to take down for a start, clear a section of woodland for putting our glamping tents in, and start planting other stuff. It’s certainly a different scale of gardening to what we’ve been used to. Building project one is 3 smallish new shower blocks.

I need to quick as possible find myself a tractor hopefully with some implements, a trailer, a decent cherry picker etc. The site comes with mini digger which will be doing some digging. We still trying ti work out how to level the pitches without making the ground too soft for all you people in your heavyweight motorhomes, they do so often make a mess of sloping wet grass.

dawsey.

Be careful about turning the entire site into a building site.

If you take down 50 trees in one go that will really muck up the land, which will then take an entire summer to recover.
The felling of 50 trees is hundreds of lorry movements,
Tons of logs (More than you can use)
More sawdust than you can possibly image
The clearing up operation will be akin to Glastonbury, but without the manpower

I would suggest a program of gradual replacement, perhaps start with removing 10 trees from one area this winter and keeping the rest under control.

As Stink trees reseed themselves you are going to need to have a couple of visits each year for the next decade from the arborists to douse the area in Agent Orange to stop them regrowing.

You then also have to re-plant 50 trees (with a 30% failure rate) in the gaps and make it all look nice.
Nature abhors a vacuum, so the clearing each stink tree has created will need to be fill with your choice of plant, otherwise it will be filled with some other invasive species.

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[Brains]

Brains, as ever, with some pretty inciteful stuff. Whoever nicknames you brains was deffo on the money.

All the above had been considered deeply. The operation used to operate as outlined, but 2 fully separate businesses, restaurant open year round and to public. One of the businesses has closed due to the big C diagnosed and rapidly ending badly. Therefore, sadly, there’s opportunity, either to do it ourselves, or as you suggest. The fonds are valueless due to 2yr no accounts. Very sad for those involved. We have been working the angles for months, including employing the remaining partner in a manner you suggest, should, once mourning is concluded they wish to continue in the same vein.

Question is, Would you?

Question is, Would you?
No.

I would not undertake running a restaurant/Café as well as running the office of a campsite, supervising an industrial gardening project and overseeing major, multiyear, construction site.

There are only two of you, your primary job is going to be running the employees and keeping the guests happy.

It is not your job, during the Ascension to Assumption season (Mid May to Mid August) to actually roll up your sleeves and involved, that is what staff are for.
(Out of season may be different).

That said, I would be inclined to take over some of the grass cutting duties from the gardener, perhaps once a week, as that way you will learn the site and the seasons

As for the eating establishment.

You are in a country which prides itself on the quality of its food and thinks the words 'Chief' and 'English' do not belong in the same sentence!

Unless one of you has several years experience of running a successful food establishment, I'd have a completely 'hands off' approach.

I'd rent the entire place as a Restaurant 'ready to go'

You need to decide what sort of cuisine you want, burgers and chips, or Pizza, pub grub, or top notch Michelin star cooking.

You change a monthly rent, and/or, you take a percentage of the profit.

You tell them the minimum level of service that you require
(Coffee and croissants between 9 and 11, lunch or proper food between 11 and 3, evening meals between 6-8pm and ice cream all day long, or whatever you think is realistic)

Whether you get the old operator involved is up to you, politically it would be a good move to at least offer 'first refusal' but only if they are prepared to operate under the new regime with new rules, but the chances are they know what sells and when far better than you do, or any other outside operator. There is also the 'devil you know' feature.

Either way, you need to get rid of the Paedo in the caravan, as it's not good for business.

 

[Ernesto]

First thing for me would be, what role will the restaurant provide on the new site? Eating facilities on a campsite can vary from a basic shop for dry goods essentials, up to proper white cloth dining. What version of catering would complement your new site the best?

The posher and more sophisticated you want to go, the more I’d be tempted to contract it out, or maybe look at partnering with a friendly local business/restaurant

If the bulk of your trade is short term punters passing through, or budget conscious holidaymakers, something simpler and lower cost might suit - and I’d be tempted to explore running that. A pizza oven, a coffee machine and a grill/fryer could provide all thats needed.

 

[chaser]

The OP's motivations seem to worry you so much...are you a frustrated campsite owner in disguise ?

Wouldn't touch one with a barge pole, the longer this goes on it is obvious he will never pay this back in a couple of lifetimes.
You can take the piss out of me as much as you like but I am only thinking of this couple who are going to ruin their lives.

 

[carolyn]

I really want it to work. I think it sounds like a terrifying prospect taking on all that debt. Then I looked back to my younger years and I took on a business loan in the early 80’s when interest rates were 15%. I think we get increasingly fearful as we age.

Admittedly the OP is over 50 but his partner is much younger. We are living in a period of great uncertainty. They are prepared for hard work. Why not give it a go.

Like many I have perused the maps. In my teens I started visiting the area around Chatellerault a bit North of Poitiers and Futuroscope. Not that Futuroscope had been built in the 70’s of course. It’s close to the TGV and the A10 so I’m wondering about that area. I stayed in Naintre.

 

[dawsey]

Question is, Would you?
No.

I would not undertake running a restaurant/Café as well as running the office of a campsite, supervising an industrial gardening project and overseeing major, multiyear, construction site.

There are only two of you, your primary job is going to be running the employees and keeping the guests happy.

It is not your job, during the Ascension to Assumption season (Mid May to Mid August) to actually roll up your sleeves and involved, that is what staff are for.
(Out of season may be different).

That said, I would be inclined to take over some of the grass cutting duties from the gardener, perhaps once a week, as that way you will learn the site and the seasons

As for the eating establishment.

You are in a country which prides itself on the quality of its food and thinks the words 'Chief' and 'English' do not belong in the same sentence!

Unless one of you has several years experience of running a successful food establishment, I'd have a completely 'hands off' approach.

I'd rent the entire place as a Restaurant 'ready to go'

You need to decide what sort of cuisine you want, burgers and chips, or Pizza, pub grub, or top notch Michelin star cooking.

You change a monthly rent, and/or, you take a percentage of the profit.

You tell them the minimum level of service that you require
(Coffee and croissants between 9 and 11, lunch or proper food between 11 and 3, evening meals between 6-8pm and ice cream all day long, or whatever you think is realistic)

Whether you get the old operator involved is up to you, politically it would be a good move to at least offer 'first refusal' but only if they are prepared to operate under the new regime with new rules, but the chances are they know what sells and when far better than you do, or any other outside operator. There is also the 'devil you know' feature.

Either way, you need to get rid of the Paedo in the caravan, as it's not good for business.

Hold on, I never described anyone as a paedo, he has in past overstepped the mark trying to get off with young female campers (which seems to be why he’s in the caravan offsite), but it’s a huge jump from that to being nonce.

Maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned the term ‘sex pest’ because even that’s probably a bit unfair, I’m sure it’s not how he sees himself, he will just see himself as jack the lad, and doesn’t appreciate that his boss doesn’t like him trying to get off with the customers.

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