Full time through winter in search of new life

[dawsey]

I'm pleased to hear your wife is fully supportive and you have your eyes wide open for to this, I'm looking forward to hearing about the positives you can't tell us about at the moment as you've painted a gloomy picture so far.
May I ask have you had firm costings for what the renovations will cost and do you have a reliable trusted contractor on board to do the works.
It sounds like a mammoth project, beyond a diy makeover.
I wish you well

Nope. But. I have done lots of stuff in my time so have a fair idea. I already doubled all my own estimates due to the two things of it being France (much higher employment costs) and chronic material cost inflation. We will run to budgets, and invest what is possible within them. The net effect of cost escalation will simply be that the time it will all take will increase. That’s OK as long as we can maintain and maybe slightly increase turnover at the same time.

For some balance I have now outlined the positives of the place.

 

[Peter and Julie]

Nope. But. I have done lots of stuff in my time so have a fair idea. I already doubled all my own estimates due to the two things of it being France (much higher employment costs) and chronic material cost inflation. We will run to budgets, and invest what is possible within them. The net effect of cost escalation will simply be that the time it will all take will increase. That’s OK as long as we can maintain and maybe slightly increase turnover at the same time.

Thought the French banks have an option to defer loan payments for a specified time (couple of years)? I know they do with non commercial mortgages. Also, any grants available? I'm sure you've looked in to it though?

 

[dawsey]

Where abouts are you?
We are based just North of Bordeaux.

The place is in Vienne

 

[dawsey]

Thought the French banks have an option to defer loan payments for a specified time (couple of years)? I know they do with non commercial mortgages. Also, any grants available? I'm sure you've looked in to it though?

On business loans you only pay at end financial year. We are looking into support, which is mainly for stuff like eco or green projects, renewable power, elec car charging solar panels etc.No more pure handouts anymore, those days are gone. But they will contribute 20-30%, if certain criteria are met, that sort of thing.

 

[mikebeaches]

A large Spanish campsite we like, on the Costa Dorada, has a train line directly next to the boundary and very close to some of the pitches. It carries moderately frequent express trains up and down the coast. Initially, when first arriving, it's impossible not to hear and feel the carriages racing past, but we very quickly acclimatise to the sound. And, perhaps because the site is also next to the sea, it is busy all season. The few seconds disturbance clearly hasn't deterred visitors, especially as the campsite has otherwise excellent facilities.

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[chaser]

Than

Many thanks Annie. Yes getting good labour we know will be difficult. We intend to instantly fire all current staff (actually not so dramatic, they are all temp seasonal, the majority just won’t ever be coming back) apart from maybe one or two of the very sweet and helpful girls in the reception, as long as they are prepared to multitask as receptionist, waitress, bar person and epicerie cashier. (there’s one for each job right now, all are sat idle > 90% of the time even when the campsite is busy. It reminds me of those 1970s trade union skits.

Eastern Europeans would be the way for me. I’ve employed them in UK and no western European can touch them for work ethic. I do however refuse to believe we can’t find a hard working Frenchie at all, Bea for example is a grafter and won’t take any laziness or BS from the French kiddies. She is the one who is right now hopping up and down about just how utterly useless the cleaners are. We both know that Negative reviews this season will damage us next season...

The key for high season operational staff will be to lead by example, and keen as mustard students willing to learn and effectively managed (for restaurant etc) and finding decent hard grafting relatable older cleaners if we can’t staff with at least some eastern Europeans. If, very generally, the Frenchies are 2 or 3 on a scale of 1 to 10 for work ethic, the Poles, Hungarians etc are an 8 or 9. Brits in UK are typically 4-5, older folk often a bit better in terms of ethic if not always attitude.

Due to the cost of employing anyone in France, it’s critical we extract value from them. We will both lead by example, the current owners don’t. The wife is always offsite, and the husband sleeps through most of the day.

In fact, we don’t see the current owners doing any actual work at any time. the wife seems to disdain the place and has an outside f/t job. The staff are effectively completely unmanaged and behave as might be imagined.

Beyond doing proper maintenance, we will be investing about a million and a half over 5-8 years to bring it back up to scratch. We will be replacing half the statics and ‘imaginatively renovating’ the rest. We will be renovating and repositioning all the glamping stuff. So much of the initial work will be gardening, landscaping, planting and woodwork. The rest will be kitchen and bathroom renovations, Shower block renovations, ie general building, tiling plumbing electrics dry stone walling. Nothing much to be afraid of if we can find half decent labour. We’ve done the analysis, the turnover is so high that with a little front loading for new materials and emergency renovations all increased OPEX will be covered by turnover.

There’s 2 medium sized investments/jobs (ie beyond 150k CAPEX each) the swim pool overhaul and the creation of integrated cafe/ restaurant/grocery with outside area.

Then there’s the biggie, the restoration of the main house and the future creation of boutique chamber d’hote and business function capability. This will be about 750k inc most of the roof. Though it is officially recognised as a Chateau, it’s not a proper chateau at all, really just a half decent looking manoir with about 7 bedrooms and an enormous attic. Passes my ‘Aston test’ though.

In the ‘right’ hands, this place has the most enormous potential, and the banks and the local chamber of commerce all seem to agree. The nearby industry isn’t a negative, it’s an opportunity. Team building, concerts, festivals, christmas parties, weddings are all possible in this huge and spacious place.

The revenue in shoulder and high season is pretty much guaranteed due to it being right on one of the principle routes south for the Brits, Belgians, Dutch and Germans. It’s also potentially a fabulous base in itself for the Parisian and Northern French, being close enough to the twin pulls of Loire (for the adults) and the second largest theme park in France (for the kiddies).

OK there’s a freight line 500m away. Sometimes you hear the trains. Some days there are no freight trains at all, sometimes you can hear 10 trundle past in a day. The reviews do not suggest this is any sort of problem, with train noise being mentioned in about 5% of the many negative reviews which are principally about poor maintenance and terrible cleanliness.

Once inside the walls, the olde has a magical, oasis line feel, even a very old, tired, badly maintained and dirty oasis. We plan to change that

about 100-150k per year.

Wow. Man I take my hat off to you, it would give me a double nervous breakdown.

 

[Nanniemate]

Having lived next to colliery sidings and the station masters house and now quiet near a valleys line I've never had an issues with trains even when the old diesel engine would park onside all night. Even missed it when it stopped
The tone of the last posts ate now again more enthusiastic but I have to admit exciting as it is it must also be scarey
Still think you should do tv escape to the campsite type thing

 

[bigtree]

Is it a small campsite like, Le Petit.

 

[dawsey]

Is it a small campsite like, Le Petit.

Not petit not grand, I’d say moyenne

 

[corconx]

I’m relieved your wife is with you and really hope you get the go ahead soon. Have they given you any ?

Trains aren’t a problem one soon becomes accustomed to them. My husband loves them, so an attraction

carol

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[Riverbankannie]

I like hearing trains too. Can’t wait to come - maybe once you have sorted the showers and toilets

 

[dawsey]

I’m relieved your wife is with you and really hope you get the go ahead soon. Have they given you any ?

Trains aren’t a problem one soon becomes accustomed to them. My husband loves them, so an attraction

carol

Thanks Carol. We don’t see the line as a dealbreaker or anything other than a minor irritation that will be noticed by a small proportion of campers. The line is not frequently used (freight) and is max 100kph and 500m away. Some days you hear nothing, and any noise seems worse in one direction than the other, some trains you can barely hear, others make a bit of a racket. We think it’s to do with the age, quality and load on the freight bogeys maybe someone on here knows something about it.

 

[dawsey]

I like hearing trains too. Can’t wait to come - maybe once you have sorted the showers and toilets

They will be job number 1

 

[dawsey]

Wow. Man I take my hat off to you, it would give me a double nervous breakdown.

As with any business, it comes down to the bottom line. Does it make enough to service such debt? Currently it could service about half that, despite maybe not being run very efficiently.

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

Currently it could service about half that, despite maybe not being run very efficiently.

Is that going by the audited accounts or the unofficial accounts

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[StephandJohn]

Just a thought about employing staff and French law. I seem to remember reading once that it's almost impossible to fire people in France. I know that most of your staff are temps but it would be worth checking that they haven't accrued any employment rights before you don't 'invite' them to come back next year. May depend on how mong they've been temps. You wont' want to spend hefty sums of money making them redundant.

 

[dawsey]

Is that going by the audited accounts or the unofficial accounts

The accountant numbers. So yes it can service more. I have personally bought about 10 beers (cash) and watched carefully where it went. It’s one way to run a business, it won’t be the way we run it. All taxes will be paid, all payments on the books. Call me old fashioned.

 

[Just smiffy]

I’m beginning to think your on a little wind up now, it surely can’t be that bad, unless your a glass nearly empty fella… but if it is you must have good vision…

I for one hope you succeed as I travel that route frequently and always on the lookout for good midway stops…

As I’ve said before I’d gladly help out for a parking space for the night with no facilities required as I have my own… especially if the work involves going through old barns or lofts…

 

[dawsey]

Just a thought about employing staff and French law. I seem to remember reading once that it's almost impossible to fire people in France. I know that most of your staff are temps but it would be worth checking that they haven't accrued any employment rights before you don't 'invite' them to come back next year. May depend on how mong they've been temps. You wont' want to spend hefty sums of money making them redundant.

We’ve been through this and the only risk is the cook. As I said, think Gerard Depardieu in Life of Pi. If we can’t fire him for his on record misdemeanours then the above is certainly true (and it isn’t untrue) We will deal with it. That fu**er will never prepare food for any of our guests.

A link copied if you haven’t seen the film. Sorry it’s in French, but you will get the drift. As well as reviews slating the food and the attitude, there are online comments from young girls who camped next to him….

 

[dawsey]

I’m beginning to think your on a little wind up now, it surely can’t be that bad, unless your a glass nearly empty fella… but if it is you must have good vision…

I for one hope you succeed as I travel that route frequently and always on the lookout for good midway stops…

As I’ve said before I’d gladly help out for a parking space for the night with no facilities required as I have my own… especially if the work involves going through old barns or lofts…

You are on. And I do have good vision

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[Coastal Cruiser.]

The accountant numbers. So yes it can service more. I have personally bought about 10 beers (cash) and watched carefully where it went. It’s one way to run a business, it won’t be the way we run it. All taxes will be paid, all payments on the books. Call me old fashioned.

This is a major problem when any sort of business is involved where it’s easy to loose some cash payments, when it comes to sell the books do look bad for some people

 

[dawsey]

This is a major problem when any sort of business is involved where it’s easy to loose some cash payments, when it comes to sell the books do look bad for some people

Yes, it’s why we have paid a tad over 1.5x the CA (turnover) for the business. Normal business valuation in France (rule of thumb) is 5x turnover or 10x profit, whichever is greater. Even a run down operation like this should be minimum 3x CA. Had to pay a fortune for the land and walls though. I don’t mind, we’ve bought what’s left of an old castle inc the chapel, a big old manor house, a massive coach house and over 20acres of prime developable (with a little work…) real estate

 

[Brains]

Yes, it’s why we have paid a tad over 1.5x the CA (turnover) for the business. Normal business valuation in France (rule of thumb) is 5x turnover or 10x profit, whichever is greater. Even a run down operation like this should be minimum 3x CA. Had to pay a fortune for the land and walls though. I don’t mind, we’ve bought what’s left of an old castle inc the chapel, a big old manor house, a massive coach house and over 20acres of prime developable (with a little work…) real estate

The point is, could you sell the land & walls is say a 3 years time and get your money back ?
If so, then you have not over paid.

The 1.5 x the Turnover for the business sounds like a bit of a bargain, as long as you can keep it running at the current levels for the next 5 years.

Whilst my personal experience is with far smaller projects, at the time they were massive, to me, and involved far more money than I had available.

Therefore my rule, and I'd suggest yours, is to proceed slowly, one project at a time. I'd concentrate of getting the loos and showers at a reasonable level for next summer.

I'd also try to get in a landscape gardener to draw up a vision of what it could look like in 10 years time, and then slowly start in that direction, one small area at a time.

Remember all builders lie even more than a politician, so only do stuff that they say will be finished by Christmas, on that basis the place will not look like a building site at Easter.

All building projects either need to be screened off, or only done when the site (or at least that entire sector of the site) is closed.
If a site looks or sounds like a building site, guests will leave

 

[corconx]

Thanks Carol. We don’t see the line as a dealbreaker or anything other than a minor irritation that will be noticed by a small proportion of campers. The line is not frequently used (freight) and is max 100kph and 500m away. Some days you hear nothing, and any noise seems worse in one direction than the other, some trains you can barely hear, others make a bit of a racket. We think it’s to do with the age, quality and load on the freight bogeys maybe someone on here knows something about it.

It’s also wind. We live near the A39 and some days it’s noisy but it’s wind direction!

Carol

 

[dawsey]

The point is, could you sell the land & walls is say a 3 years time and get your money back ?
If so, then you have not over paid.

The 1.5 x the Turnover for the business sounds like a bit of a bargain, as long as you can keep it running at the current levels for the next 5 years.

Whilst my personal experience is with far smaller projects, at the time they were massive, to me, and involved far more money than I had available.

Therefore my rule, and I'd suggest yours, is to proceed slowly, one project at a time. I'd concentrate of getting the loos and showers at a reasonable level for next summer.

I'd also try to get in a landscape gardener to draw up a vision of what it could look like in 10 years time, and then slowly start in that direction, one small area at a time.

Remember all builders lie even more than a politician, so only do stuff that they say will be finished by Christmas, on that basis the place will not look like a building site at Easter.

All building projects either need to be screened off, or only done when the site (or at least that entire sector of the site) is closed.
If a site looks or sounds like a building site, guests will leave

good sound advice as ever Brains

I started life as a builder, and I’m a grafter. By the time I’m done, the land and ‘walls’ (buildings) will be worth 3x

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[DerryW]

A large Spanish campsite we like, on the Costa Dorada, has a train line directly next to the boundary and very close to some of the pitches. It carries moderately frequent express trains up and down the coast. Initially, when first arriving, it's impossible not to hear and feel the carriages racing past, but we very quickly acclimatise to the sound. And, perhaps because the site is also next to the sea, it is busy all season. The few seconds disturbance clearly hasn't deterred visitors, especially as the campsite has otherwise excellent facilities.

That wouldn't happen to be Torre de Sol, would it

 

[dawsey]

About us
Bea, French, sweet, lovely, kind, generous, warm hearted, hard working. 20yrs in UK and very happy there, involved in parish council until well, I need say no more. I never thought I’d hear decent elderly neighbours telling her to “f*** off back to her own country”

Anyone who has ever read any of the books on how it happened (I have read them all) will remember the quote from Cameron about letting loose demons. Yeah. And then some.

 

[mikebeaches]

That wouldn't happen to be Torre de Sol, would it

No, actually it's El Temple del Sol. But I suspect there may be other campsites along the coast that are next to the railway.

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

No, actually it's El Temple del Sol. But I suspect there may be other campsites along the coast that are next to the railway.

By the sound of it just look for the campsite in that area with the worst reviews and that could be the place

 

[mikebeaches]

By the sound of it just look for the campsite in that area with the worst reviews and that could be the place

Not quite sure what you're saying... Are we on the same page? I was referring to a campsite on the Costa Dorada, not in France.

And I'd mentioned it because it has a railway track along the boundary of the camping, but the site is still successful and usually virtually full ie the noise from the express trains isn't a deterrent for holidaymakers.

El Templo del Sol appears to score 4.3 out of 5 (86%) on Google with 1474 reviews.

Camping El Templo del Sol · Via Augusta, 43890 L'Hospitalet de l'Infant, Tarragona, Spain

âââââ · Campsite

tinyurl.com

Apologies to dawsey - didn't mean to cause thread drift.

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