Full time through winter in search of new life

[UptheGas]

A little update:

4 full monty applications for finance made with four seperate french banks . 4 meetings, four presentations, four formal submissions.

now waiting to be called for further interviews etc. It’s like applying for a job.

We moved onto the site on a pitch a week ago, and have spent a week getting to know it. With every day that passes I am getting closer to wanting to back out as I see the amount of work to do, the state of disrepair, lack of maintenance of absolutely everything. There are chronic ivy and stink tree infestations, all grass is dead, all equipment is knackered, all showers toilets walls fixtures and fittings are crumbling. All mobile homes worn out, all other accommodations worn out, swim pool completely worn out. It’s like standing at the bottom of mount Everest. Clients for camping seem mostly Brits and Dutch. There’s a sprinkling of other Europeans. In the mobile homes and glamping accommodations it’s all French. Dutch in safari tents. It’s all one night stays. The restaurant is appalling, the showers filthy, the bar non existent, the staff mostly bone idle, unmanaged and all seem to absolutely take the mickey.

There are so many Brits here that it’s almost certain one of you guys will pass through.

I’m having huge second thoughts. I just don’t know where to start with turning round this place.

You’re not really selling the dream to us Dawsey !

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

I don't know how you can sign a deal with the seller when you don't have the finances in place to buy. Or is the contract to buy only valid when you have the money.?

 

[Dutch 68]

A little update:

4 full monty applications for finance made with four seperate french banks . 4 meetings, four presentations, four formal submissions.

now waiting to be called for further interviews etc. It’s like applying for a job.

We moved onto the site on a pitch a week ago, and have spent a week getting to know it. With every day that passes I am getting closer to wanting to back out as I see the amount of work to do, the state of disrepair, lack of maintenance of absolutely everything. There are chronic ivy and stink tree infestations, all grass is dead, all equipment is knackered, all showers toilets walls fixtures and fittings are crumbling. All mobile homes worn out, all other accommodations worn out, swim pool completely worn out. It’s like standing at the bottom of mount Everest. Clients for camping seem mostly Brits and Dutch. There’s a sprinkling of other Europeans. In the mobile homes and glamping accommodations it’s all French. Dutch in safari tents. It’s all one night stays. The restaurant is appalling, the showers filthy, the bar non existent, the staff mostly bone idle, unmanaged and all seem to absolutely take the mickey.

There are so many Brits here that it’s almost certain one of you guys will pass through.

I’m having huge second thoughts. I just don’t know where to start with turning round this place.

I wouldn’t bother……. Money pit it sounds like to me , certainly with the complete explosion of material prices, better off living the quiet life, buy a nice cottage and a few more cottages to do up and rent out, step by step instead of this huge undertaking, but wishing you good luck whatever you do

 

[monzer]

There's obviously customers even though it's a bit of a hole. Think how busy it'll be when you finish.

 

[Nanniemate]

You have not said the glamping is bad so that area must be OK

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[dawsey]

I don't know how you can sign a deal with the seller when you don't have the finances in place to buy. Or is the contract to buy only valid when you have the money.?

Weird isn’t it? All was explained in previous posts…

 

[dawsey]

There's obviously customers even though it's a bit of a hole. Think how busy it'll be when you finish.

This is what we keep telling ourselves…

 

[dawsey]

You have not said the glamping is bad so that area must be OK

Glamping kit is all worn out, as is absolutely everything else. Still, I knew most of this before we agreed to buy. The area is not interesting at all, it’s a very industrial area, there is nothing to see locally.

The owner doesn’t seem to understand maintenance, the place is literally falling apart. There’s way more trains than I expected as well, and they can be pretty noisy. All a bit depressing really. I start to wonder what have we done…

 

[Nanniemate]

Glamping kit is all worn out, as is absolutely everything else. Still, I knew most of this before we agreed to buy. The area is not interesting at all, it’s a very industrial area, there is nothing to see locally.

The owner doesn’t seem to understand maintenance, the place is literally falling apart. There’s way more trains than I expected as well, and they can be pretty noisy. All a bit depressing really. I start to wonder what have we done…

Maybe voicing your concerns on here could get back to the present owners could that cause you.problems? Can you get out of the purchase if really necessary. Now is the time to appraise the situation. Maybe the B word could work.in your favour. If you really need to get out of the deal head for a ferry port QUICK!!

 

[Dutch 68]

Glamping kit is all worn out, as is absolutely everything else. Still, I knew most of this before we agreed to buy. The area is not interesting at all, it’s a very industrial area, there is nothing to see locally.

The owner doesn’t seem to understand maintenance, the place is literally falling apart. There’s way more trains than I expected as well, and they can be pretty noisy. All a bit depressing really. I start to wonder what have we done…

Sounds like you need to pull out while you still can, hardly the right start if you already feel like that ……..

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[corconx]

I think you really must review your options. It will probably cost you to get out of it. I don’t know French law - maybe you need to find one to speak to.

Would the best way be the banks won’t lend you the money?

Think hard please don’t hang a millstone around your necks. It might be difficult to offload

Carol

 

[buzz1]

The stuff that worn out make previous owners gets rid so your not left with his crap,
You say area is of no interest locally, but there must be something going for the place for to want to buy in the first place, trains can be noisy
Maybe tracks are due for renewal in future that will make a bit of difference if it old jointed track , who knows if they’re old diesel engines you may have a market for the train spotter types . Providing you can see the trains pass, if you can’t get out of deal now then you have to make most of what’s there. Sorry trying to be positive for you
All the to best you what ever you do

 

[Adtan]

Hi Dawsey
I’ve been involved in a few companies now is the time to apply what your head not your heart is telling you to do after all this is your life savings at stake!
In any business cash is king if the site is a sinkhole you stand to lose everything the banks will look at this from there point of view is it a safe investment will they get a return and if they repossess will they get there money back. I’d advise having a long hard look at this and if you have any doubts whatsoever walk away
I hope you and your wife come to the decision that you are both happy with running your own business is not a bed of roses especially when your life savings are on the line.

 

[bigtree]

Without going back through all your posts, did you previously stay on the site so that you could get some idea of whether it was viable ?

 

[Carpmart]

I agree with Adtan, you’re proper ‘due diligence’ is now showing up the reality of what you’re potentially investing in…

If this is an investment and a real business, rather than a hobby business (it has to be ‘real’ if you’re asking for the financing that you are), then your head has to top trump your emotions, however, even the emotional side seem quite challenged now.

I would bail out now!!!! You will not have uncovered all the horrors and so it will only get worse from here!

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[chaser]

I have been against this venture from the start but shot down as being the miserable old bugger so have kept out of it.
It's not just your life savings that you are putting in but millions of pounds borrowed which is going to be have to paid back.
It is going to take years to get anything back and with all the things that are happening in the world, it's not the time to be up to your ears in debt.
The french way of Aires and camping is way out of date, CCP and their ilk are going to decimate it in years to come, even faster than even I imagined.
If you really want to get into the business why not start smaller with a more viable camp that you could easily get out of and if it works expand slowly.

 

[Figaro]

I agree with other recent comments to go into this with your head rather than your heart guiding you.
It sounds like a huge risk to to me, not one I'd take on with bank finance.
You say most stays on the campsite are for one night and another comment that there is nothing of interest in the area with it being industrial.
A noisey train line is a huge disadvantage too.
That would tell me your customers base is travellers passing through to more tourist friendly areas.
On that basis it's never going to be a 'destination' campsite and would be more suited to an aire set up.
It's been a fascinating read and I wish you well in whatever you decide.

 

[steve69]

Weird isn’t it? All was explained in previous posts…

That's the problem when threads get this long. Too much to read through so you end up seeing comments similar to those previously mentioned.
I can see you are caught between a rock and a hard place:
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread vs. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

[corconx]

We hear your side, there are two of you in this project. What is your wife thinking in her heart? Have you really listened to her - sorry but men in general do not really listen - and sometimes we just go along with it. At This moment in time, you really need to sit and have a proper discussion. I swear this thisThis moment in time, you really need to sit and have a proper discussion as to where this is going, because it could be your marriage at stake at the end of this if it doesn’t work out.

I just hope you get it right.

Carol.

 

[olley]

You saw it and liked it and put a bid in, now with the enormity of what your taking on your getting cold feet, but its still the same site that you initially liked, nothing has changed but you. When you can't go back, go forward.

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[steve69]

Any possibility of "rallying the troops" on here. Maybe free accommodation for our moho's in exchange for some manual labour in helping to sort your new venture out?

 

[chaser]

I have been against this venture from the start but shot down as being the miserable old bugger so have kept out of it.
It's not just your life savings that you are putting in but millions of pounds borrowed which is going to be have to paid back.
It is going to take years to get anything back and with all the things that are happening in the world, it's not the time to be up to your ears in debt.
The french way of Aires and camping is way out of date, CCP and their ilk are going to decimate it in years to come, even faster than even I imagined.
If you really want to get into the business why not start smaller with a more viable camp that you could easily get out of and if it works expand slowly.

Btw this is just my opinion, I am not trying to be argumentive or trying to tell anyone what to do and if you do take it on I wish you all the luck in the world with it and will say you are a braver man than me.

 

[dawsey]

Thanks guys. Don’t worry, we aren’t kids and do know what we are getting into.

To be clear, Bea is 100% onboard and excited and we are not pulling out of this… I post bluntly about the negatives, which I can see freaks people out, but am less forthright about the positives. It’s because they are perhaps not immediately obvious.

It is depressing staying on the site and seeing how it is run. We have never said what this place is so there’s little chance of the French owners seeing these comments, but in any case it wouldn’t matter. There is nothing they would not have seen a hundred times in their own reviews (and a hundred times more harshly expressed). They seem blind to it, unwilling to understand, to listen to their own customers. There’s this arrogance…

The problems (in order) are the complete lack of maintenance of the grounds, gardens, walls, woodlands, everything. The second is the complete lack of proper cleaning (of the sanitary/shower blocks). The third is ageing facilities, swim pool, shower blocks too small for modern times etc. The first two, while yes requiring hard work, are pretty obvious to address.

The third is where the banks need to help us, or we liquidate other assets to invest - but, it can be done over several years maintaining turnover.

In essence - the first two to maintain what is already a very high turnover, the third to grow it.

I give examples. There is a full time gardener, paid full time. All we ever see him do is ride round for 20min a day on a lawnmower. The landscaped grounds could and should be utterly beautiful with a real full time proper gardener. They are not. They are shocking. There are full time cleaners who spend five minutes cleaning the showers, and they remain beyond disgusting post clean.

Best example ? The cook. Think Gerard Depardieu in the movie ‘Pi’.

I could write a lot, but I just don’t think you guys would believe it. You would think I was making it up.

I will announce what this place is soon enough as the noises from the banks on both acquisition lending and partnership investment lending have been good. It’s an utterly beautiful and glorious place that just needs taking back to former glory and maintaining, repairing, modernising. I will be installing kids water slides from 14th century tower bowman windows into enlarged swimming pool and we will creat something magical and unique.

We will build it and people will come…

For those interested, who are keen gardeners - we will absolutely offer a free holiday to all who can help. Gardening, hedge laying, pruning, dry stone walling, getting rid of invasive tree species, removing ivy, clearing undergrowth, dead trees, tree surgery etc etc

Lastly - no need to worry about us. I will try not to put any more alarmist posts. We are looking at this in a very hard headed way as well as using imagination. There’s no choice if we are to persuade French banks to become our long term partners (that’s what they are indicating they seem to want).

 

[Riverbankannie]

As a YouTube watcher of chateau diy type vlogs, I cannot help but notice they all employ ex pat Brits to do any work!
There is also the option of the Workaway scheme and get some eastern europeans.
Good Luck, yes we are all worried for you both but really sending best wishes for success.

 

[Peter and Julie]

Where abouts are you?
We are based just North of Bordeaux.

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[Bailey58]

Today we signed the Compromis de Vent legally hard biding us to buy the campsite. It’s the same as ‘exchange’ in UK. The only thing now is to organise finance. It’s funny how exchange happens before you organise a mortgage in France, it seems that getting a mortgage loan is just taken as read. We had to agree a rate of interest cap after which we could still withdraw, I went for 3.5% but the notaire and vendors weren’t too convinced this would be possible so we agreed on 3.75%.

I also got my temporary French NI number, meaning we are now sufficiently resident to borrow money. Having signed the compromis it’s time to approach the banks formally.

Getting a French NI number meant getting an S1 from UK to confirm any emergency health care costs will be refunded by UK until I start paying social charges. So I first called my old GP surgery in UK, after about 3 days I got through and they had no idea what an S1 was. So I did some googling and found it was either HMRC or NHS business services. I tried HMRC first. They were adamant it had to be NHS business. So I called them, they were adamant it had to come from HMRC as we are working age. 2 further phone calls to each organisation and no progress made, when the HMRC guy suggested Gov.uk and online application for S1. Great I thinks, so I set up an account, obtain a personal tax number, complete the process or registration and then I’m in - fantastic!

So, job one, apply for S1, question 1: are you employed or self employed. I’m neither and there had to be one or the other answer together with company details. More phone calls and I’m directed to the ‘help with S1’ page. I look it up, to paraphrase: “getting an S1 is a bit complicated for EU right now. Things might change after Brexit” - page last updated September 2019.

After more phone calls in France asking if they really must have an S1, they clarified. “ah yes, we see the UK is for some reason unable to issue them to working age people”, then, “don’t worry, ask them for a letter stating they will refuse you NHS cover - we can use that”

So, back to NHS business services, yes, it seems that that can issue what’s called à ‘statuary letter’ which basically says that the UK is not responsible for my health care and will not reimburse any costs !

So that’s what I had to do to get my temporary French NI number. Allow the UK to wash its hands of me…. despite that I only stopped paying tax in December, and still have a UK tax return to do for the last tax year.

I hope we don’t get in an accident in the camper before we complete the purchase

We now have to formally apply for the business loan, which we will start on Monday. Here you have to apply to as many banks as you can at the same time, go to the meetings, make your pitch, take all your plans and documents, then you see what they all offer (assuming they do) and choose the best deal. I suppose it’s good that they have to compete for your business. We are told it’s going to take around 2 months to get formal offers as it’s holiday season.

Fingers crossed

For passing the buck you should watch a Bill Nighy film called Living, set in the 1950's in County Hall.

 

[Figaro]

Thanks guys. Don’t worry, we aren’t kids and do know what we are getting into.

To be clear, Bea is 100% onboard and excited and we are not pulling out of this… I post bluntly about the negatives, which I can see freaks people out, but am less forthright about the positives. It’s because they are perhaps not immediately obvious.

It is depressing staying on the site and seeing how it is run. We have never said what this place is so there’s little chance of the French owners seeing these comments, but in any case it wouldn’t matter. There is nothing they would not have seen a hundred times in their own reviews (and a hundred times more harshly expressed). They seem blind to it, unwilling to understand, to listen to their own customers. There’s this arrogance…

The problems (in order) are the complete lack of maintenance of the grounds, gardens, walls, woodlands, everything. The second is the complete lack of proper cleaning (of the sanitary/shower blocks). The third is ageing facilities, swim pool, shower blocks too small for modern times etc. The first two, while yes requiring hard work, are pretty obvious to address.

The third is where the banks need to help us, or we liquidate other assets to invest - but, it can be done over several years maintaining turnover.

In essence - the first two to maintain what is already a very high turnover, the third to grow it.

I give examples. There is a full time gardener, paid full time. All we ever see him do is ride round for 20min a day on a lawnmower. The landscaped grounds could and should be utterly beautiful with a real full time proper gardener. They are not. They are shocking. There are full time cleaners who spend five minutes cleaning the showers, and they remain beyond disgusting post clean.

Best example ? The cook. Think Gerard Depardieu in the movie ‘Pi’.

I could write a lot, but I just don’t think you guys would believe it. You would think I was making it up.

I will announce what this place is soon enough as the noises from the banks on both acquisition lending and partnership investment lending have been good. It’s an utterly beautiful and glorious place that just needs taking back to former glory and maintaining, repairing, modernising. I will be installing kids water slides from 14th century tower bowman windows into enlarged swimming pool and we will creat something magical and unique.

We will build it and people will come…

For those interested, who are keen gardeners - we will absolutely offer a free holiday to all who can help. Gardening, hedge laying, pruning, dry stone walling, getting rid of invasive tree species, removing ivy, clearing undergrowth, dead trees, tree surgery etc etc

Lastly - no need to worry about us. I will try not to put any more alarmist posts. We are looking at this in a very hard headed way as well as using imagination. There’s no choice if we are to persuade French banks to become our long term partners (that’s what they are indicating they seem to want).

I'm pleased to hear your wife is fully supportive and you have your eyes wide open for to this, I'm looking forward to hearing about the positives you can't tell us about at the moment as you've painted a gloomy picture so far.
May I ask have you had firm costings for what the renovations will cost and do you have a reliable trusted contractor on board to do the works.
It sounds like a mammoth project, beyond a diy makeover.
I wish you well

 

[chaser]

Not ever having anything to do with such amounts of money can dawsey or anyone else tell me just how much per month will be needed to pay back this money?
Serious question I just have no idea.

 

[dawsey]

Than

As a YouTube watcher of chateau diy type vlogs, I cannot help but notice they all employ ex pat Brits to do any work!
There is also the option of the Workaway scheme and get some eastern europeans.
Good Luck, yes we are all worried for you both but really sending best wishes for success.

Many thanks Annie. Yes getting good labour we know will be difficult. We intend to instantly fire all current staff (actually not so dramatic, they are all temp seasonal, the majority just won’t ever be coming back) apart from maybe one or two of the very sweet and helpful girls in the reception, as long as they are prepared to multitask as receptionist, waitress, bar person and epicerie cashier. (there’s one for each job right now, all are sat idle > 90% of the time even when the campsite is busy. It reminds me of those 1970s trade union skits.

Eastern Europeans would be the way for me. I’ve employed them in UK and no western European can touch them for work ethic. I do however refuse to believe we can’t find a hard working Frenchie at all, Bea for example is a grafter and won’t take any laziness or BS from the French kiddies. She is the one who is right now hopping up and down about just how utterly useless the cleaners are. We both know that Negative reviews this season will damage us next season...

The key for high season operational staff will be to lead by example, and keen as mustard students willing to learn and effectively managed (for restaurant etc) and finding decent hard grafting relatable older cleaners if we can’t staff with at least some eastern Europeans. If, very generally, the Frenchies are 2 or 3 on a scale of 1 to 10 for work ethic, the Poles, Hungarians etc are an 8 or 9. Brits in UK are typically 4-5, older folk often a bit better in terms of ethic if not always attitude.

Due to the cost of employing anyone in France, it’s critical we extract value from them. We will both lead by example, the current owners don’t. The wife is always offsite, and the husband sleeps through most of the day.

In fact, we don’t see the current owners doing any actual work at any time. the wife seems to disdain the place and has an outside f/t job. The staff are effectively completely unmanaged and behave as might be imagined.

Beyond doing proper maintenance, we will be investing about a million and a half over 5-8 years to bring it back up to scratch. We will be replacing half the statics and ‘imaginatively renovating’ the rest. We will be renovating and repositioning all the glamping stuff. So much of the initial work will be gardening, landscaping, planting and woodwork. The rest will be kitchen and bathroom renovations, Shower block renovations, ie general building, tiling plumbing electrics dry stone walling. Nothing much to be afraid of if we can find half decent labour. We’ve done the analysis, the turnover is so high that with a little front loading for new materials and emergency renovations all increased OPEX will be covered by turnover.

There’s 2 medium sized investments/jobs (ie beyond 150k CAPEX each) the swim pool overhaul and the creation of integrated cafe/ restaurant/grocery with outside area.

Then there’s the biggie, the restoration of the main house and the future creation of boutique chamber d’hote and business function capability. This will be about 750k inc most of the roof. Though it is officially recognised as a Chateau, it’s not a proper chateau at all, really just a half decent looking manoir with about 7 bedrooms and an enormous attic. Passes my ‘Aston test’ though.

In the ‘right’ hands, this place has the most enormous potential, and the banks and the local chamber of commerce all seem to agree. The nearby industry isn’t a negative, it’s an opportunity. Team building, concerts, festivals, christmas parties, weddings are all possible in this huge and spacious place.

The revenue in shoulder and high season is pretty much guaranteed due to it being right on one of the principle routes south for the Brits, Belgians, Dutch and Germans. It’s also potentially a fabulous base in itself for the Parisian and Northern French, being close enough to the twin pulls of Loire (for the adults) and the second largest theme park in France (for the kiddies).

OK there’s a freight line 500m away. Sometimes you hear the trains. Some days there are no freight trains at all, sometimes you can hear 10 trundle past in a day. The reviews do not suggest this is any sort of problem, with train noise being mentioned in about 5% of the many negative reviews which are principally about poor maintenance and terrible cleanliness.

Once inside the walls, the olde has a magical, oasis line feel, even a very old, tired, badly maintained and dirty oasis. We plan to change that

 

[dawsey]

Not ever having anything to do with such amounts of money can dawsey or anyone else tell me just how much per month will be needed to pay back this money?
Serious question I just have no idea.

about 100-150k per year.

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