Euro 4 and 5

[ashleyalcaline]

Hello everyone, this question keeps coming up
Just trying to get a general idea of how people are dealing with restriction to anything below euro 6 ? Is this a bigger problem for commercial users ? My current van is only euro 5 but looking at coach conversion which within my budget tends to be euro4 - would appreciate your answers
Regards

 

[ChrisL]

You may be right or you may just be lucky, but Heathrow is upwind & I can't help thinking that may be a factor...

Heathrow is upwind in prevailing south west/west winds that's true, however it is surrounded by warehouses with heavy vehicles travelling in and out and with the M4, M3 and M25 nearby so I think my experience is valid. I do remember how many people suffered with Bronchitis during the 50's and 60's when people were still using coal fires, but when people moved to gas fired central heating that decreased very significantly.

 

[stuartholmes]

I live in London, my area was developed in 1890's.
Rather than running the roads along the contours so that every house is built on the level as you would today, in my area all the roads are built on the slope, so that the horse shit runs downhill to the poor areas!

And the worst thing is that may well have been the deliberate intention!

 

[dunnah01]

ULEZ: Where and when

Where and when the ULEZ will operate

tfl.gov.uk

ULEZ Expansion 2023

To help clear London's air, the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) expanded across all London boroughs on 29 August 2023.

tfl.gov.uk

For once I get it for free in our Moho, just need to stump up the £100 LEZ charge to get to the ULEZ

 

[Brains]

And the worst thing is that may well have been the deliberate intention!

It was!

Next time you visit an older building see where the stables are in relation to the main house.
Always downhill.

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[Dazzola]

These 2 vehicles have the same engine, same emissions, same body, but one has windows, only one of them gets charged or fined.
Yes it's a money making scheme.

 

[Ian Bosman]

Pay to pollute is being rolled out at more and more cities but so far never had any problems with our Euro IV 4 25t van except for Abbey Wood in that there London no longer being an option but public transport exists there, all the other cities have pretty woeful public transport so if I need to go to then it could be a problem

I do not think that Birmingham comes into the "woeful" description, saying this as a resident who uses buses and trains with the Centro Bus pass which allows trains aswell as buses and trams. Not quite a good as the London Residents bus pass. The trains are only valid in the Centro areas cannot be used by non Centro residents. I often take the train only one stop from where i live into Sutton Coldfield despite having a car as well as a motorhome We have three trains per hour on the cross City Line and buses about three per hour

 

[denisejoe]

Where we are buses start about 6 then evert 90 minutes until 6 pm Monday until Friday,
Saturday start 8.45 the every hour until 2.45 one at 4.45 then last bus at 5.15 next bus Monday.

 

[jongood]

What was the question again?

 

[Odd-no-more]

In Southampton, the traffic lights are phased in order to cause maximum delay and pollution so the emissions build up to a level where they can bring in a CAZ. The council tried to get a CAZ a few years ago but the pollution level was not high enough, since then they have added more traffic lights and phased them so that cars sit for minutes at a time with nothing moving on the other road, the only time traffic moves well is if the lights fail.

So "it's not about the money"

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[Brains]

Perhaps anyone who thinks Mayor Khan's main motivation is clean air rather then fund raising is delusional? It all depends on your point of view.

True.
He could simply ban all fossil fuelled vehicles from within the M25 tomorrow.

However I think that may cause a few issues ........
Do you have a better way of limiting the amount of pollution being caused by fossil fuel in the big cities?
What would you propose as a solution ?

 

[ChrisL]

True.
He could simply ban all fossil fuelled vehicles from within the M25 tomorrow.

However I think that may cause a few issues ........
Do you have a better way of limiting the amount of pollution being caused by fossil fuel in the big cities?
What would you propose as a solution ?

I think the answer may lay in Hydrogen, it would requre substantial investment in infrastructure, but I think that is the direction we should be heading in. There is no easy short term fix but I don't believe the expansion of the ULEZ is necessary, and will just make life very difficult for those that can't afford to go out and buy new vehicles. Should London be a place where only rich people can afford to live and will those people be willing to pay the exorbitant rates plumbers builders etc. Would have to charge to cover the costs of working inside London?

 

[Brains]

As an aside to show the direction of travel:

Most of the users of this forum were born before the mid 1970's and the widespread introduction of central heating.

EVERY house had (multiple) fireplaces, EVERY office, shop, and factory relied on coal to heat the place (and also provide the light).

Without coal (or a large amount of wood) it was physically impossible to live in the UK in winter.
Coal is what put the 'great' in Britain.

On the 1st of May 2023 the last bag of household coal was delivered in the UK.

Many of us here still remember how to light a coal fire, a skill that will be gone within a couple of decades.
If you had suggested to your parents, or even your younger selves that one day all the pits would close and there would be no coal in the fireplace of any house in the land, you would have been laughed at.

Fossil fuelled vehicles are going the same way.
Many here will be around to see the last one off the production line.

 

[Brains]

I think the answer may lay in Hydrogen, it would requre substantial investment in infrastructure, but I think that is the direction we should be heading in. There is no easy short term fix but I don't believe the expansion of the ULEZ is necessary, and will just make life very difficult for those that can't afford to go out and buy new vehicles. Should London be a place where only rich people can afford to live and will those people be willing to pay the exorbitant rates plumbers bulders etc. Would have to charge to cover the costs of working inside London?

They already do.

As you know house prices are silly, with the average wage being about 1 tenth of the average house cost.

We use trades a lot in property maintenance, quietly, one by one, they are declining London jobs.
The old 'under the railway arch' type of businesses such as panel beating and car body spraying have all moved out, so a minor scratch or dent in your motorhome involves a drive to beyond the M25.

 

[gus-lopez]

Obviously that is 6,000 too many,

In your opinion.

the majority of the deaths are due to fossil fuel pollution from vehicles and domestic boilers.

Where is the link to that?

You are muddying the waters using 1952 in a deliberate attempt to show how"bad" it is. in 1952 there were fewer than 3 million cars on the roads in the whole of the UK/GB.


1952 In London there were few cars & a population of around 8,5 million.
1952 was the year of the 'great smog' nothing to do with cars but open fires
in 2020 in London there are 2,300,000 vehicle with the lowest ownership rate in the UK.
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/number-cars-great-britain#nogo

London is the only area with vehicle ownership 5% less than 20 years earlier.
In 2023 there are 9,648,000 registered citizensin London . up 1,12% on last year.That is 106,860 persons.

https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/22860/london/population

Doing it over 20 years will kill another 72,000 people in London alone.

If London continues with 106,000 + population increases each year the loss of 6k is a drop in the ocean.

If you were appointed Mayor tomorrow.
What would be your chosen solution(s) ?

Rescind all emissions measures & let nature take its normal course.
Concentrate on road repairs ,lighting ,bin collections & street cleaning.Remove all multi language assistance & translators.

These 2 vehicles have the same engine, same emissions, same body, but one has windows, only one of them gets charged or fined.
Yes it's a money making scheme.

View attachment 752741 View attachment 752742

I use a UK car forum & there is a bloke on there who has 2x 109 land rovers , early ones. 1982 if I recall correctly? One is a swbase pick up.
the other is a swbase station wagon. They are the same year, registered the same month, have the same engine & are 17 chassis numbers apart. The station wagon is 'legal' & the pick up is not? What is that all about?

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[ChrisL]

As an aside to show the direction of travel:

Most of the users of this forum were born before the mid 1970's and the widespread introduction of central heating.

EVERY house had (multiple) fireplaces, EVERY office, shop, and factory relied on coal to heat the place (and also provide the light).

Without coal (or a large amount of wood) it was physically impossible to live in the UK in winter.
Coal is what put the 'great' in Britain.

On the 1st of May 2023 the last bag of household coal was delivered in the UK.

Many of us here still remember how to light a coal fire, a skill that will be gone within a couple of decades.
If you had suggested to your parents, or even your younger selves that one day all the pits would close and there would be no coal in the fireplace of any house in the land, you would have been laughed at.

Fossil fuelled vehicles are going the same way.
Many here will be around to see the last one off the production line.

I think most of us of that age are well aware of how fast things change and how rapidly technology advances, especially those of us that have worked in engineering and transferred into IT, whilst I agree fossil fuels will eventually die out, I honestly don't think it will be in the near future, maybe there will be a technological breakthrough and if it comes that will be great, but I shan't hold my breath.

 

[ChrisL]

so a minor scratch or dent in your motorhome involves a drive to beyond the M25.

Causing more pollution?

 

[jongood]

True.
He could simply ban all fossil fuelled vehicles from within the M25 tomorrow.

However I think that may cause a few issues ........
Do you have a better way of limiting the amount of pollution being caused by fossil fuel in the big cities?
What would you propose as a solution ?

You re not getting this are you! He wants to charge "poluting vehicles" not ban them, He would have to come up with a different scheme if he banned them.

 

[Coolcats]

Have a google.

There have been several reports of councils and national parks looking into introductions of policies that limit the pollution/number of vehicles, which means something similar to the London Congestion Charge
(Where locals and EV were exempt or got reduced fees)

If London can do a Congestion/LEZ with millions of daily movements on a 125 mile border with thousands of entry/exit points all covered by ANPR, it would be dead easy in the Lake District, as a couple of dozen ANPR cameras could cover all the entry/exits west of the M6

If there is a way of extracting more money from motorists, why would any authority turn down the easy option ?

One article is here but there are many more if you dig around

LEZ/ULEZ will get wider as we approach 2030/2035 and will probably be country wide. probably a good case for Hydrogen conversions for ICE diesels

 

[Brains]

You re not getting this are you! He wants to charge "poluting vehicles" not ban them, He would have to come up with a different scheme if he banned them.

Big European cities have two issues with motorised vehicles (whatever they are powered by)

One is congestion: There on too many vehicles on roads that were designed for pedestrians and horses.

The other is pollution caused by the too many vehicles, with the fossil fuelled ones killing hundreds of people every week in London alone.

I'm sure most Mayors would happily ban 80% of the vehicles tomorrow and ensure the remaining 20% were electric, but the city would grind to a halt if done overnight.

Singapore is the only city that I'm aware of that has come up with a half decent solution.

To deal with the congestion they limit the number of licenced vehicles to something like 100,000.
The licences are auctioned annually on an eBay type of site, where you bid for a licence, only the highest 100,000 bids win, every year the prices go higher and higher.
The vehicles also have to be of a minimum spec, I'd presume that very soon they will insist on them all being EV's to qualify for the application.

The bottom line is going to be if you want to drive into a city, any city, you will have to pay for the privilege, otherwise use public transport, a bicycle or your feet.

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[Odd-no-more]

Big European cities have two issues with motorised vehicles (whatever they are powered by)

One is congestion: There on too many vehicles on roads that were designed for pedestrians and horses.

The other is pollution caused by the too many vehicles, with the fossil fuelled ones killing hundreds of people every week in London alone.

I'm sure most Mayors would happily ban 80% of the vehicles tomorrow and ensure the remaining 20% were electric, but the city would grind to a halt if done overnight.

Singapore is the only city that I'm aware of that has come up with a half de

The bottom line is going to be if you want to drive into a city, any city, you will have to pay for the privilege, otherwise use public transport, a bicycle or your feet.

So back to the days of the masters riding and the peasants walking. I'm not very keen on that.,
Following that logic we will go back to the majority of people never leaving the village they're born in, perhaps we should go back to an agricultural economy too?

 

[Brains]

So back to the days of the masters riding and the peasants walking. I'm not very keen on that.,
Following that logic we will go back to the majority of people never leaving the village they're born in, perhaps we should go back to an agricultural economy too?

I'm not saying that is correct, but has anyone got a better solution to the problems of congestion in European Cities (Other than the flatten the city and redesign it for cars, as has been done in the western USA)

The bottom line is personal private transportation in large vehicles has to go.

Automated taxi's could be a way to go, where every residential road in a big city has a selection of automated vehicles waiting for you to call them using an Uber type of app.

But however you slice it, it all eventually boils down to money.
You need to pay for personal private transport.
The bigger it is and the more it pollutes the more you pay.

 

[jongood]

Big European cities have two issues with motorised vehicles (whatever they are powered by)

One is congestion: There on too many vehicles on roads that were designed for pedestrians and horses.

The other is pollution caused by the too many vehicles, with the fossil fuelled ones killing hundreds of people every week in London alone.

I'm sure most Mayors would happily ban 80% of the vehicles tomorrow and ensure the remaining 20% were electric, but the city would grind to a halt if done overnight.

Singapore is the only city that I'm aware of that has come up with a half decent solution.

To deal with the congestion they limit the number of licenced vehicles to something like 100,000.
The licences are auctioned annually on an eBay type of site, where you bid for a licence, only the highest 100,000 bids win, every year the prices go higher and higher.
The vehicles also have to be of a minimum spec, I'd presume that very soon they will insist on them all being EV's to qualify for the application.

The bottom line is going to be if you want to drive into a city, any city, you will have to pay for the privilege, otherwise use public transport, a bicycle or your feet.

If you read your own post - its all about money! If it wasnt they would just ban ICE vehicles, but they don't they allow people to pay their way around it.

 

[Dazzola]

Just an example, the zone that's just been implemented in sheffield is everything inside the ring road around the city centre, but they have INCLUDED the ring road, the very road that was built so that vehicles could go around the city and not congest the centre.
They even put a new one way system at khelam island so that you couldn't detour around 200yds of the ring road that you have to touch to avoid going into the city.
It's money, nothing more, a 30yr old diesel car is fine, but my fairly clean euro5 van is a no no, smells like a taxation to me.

 

[ianp]

It's money, nothing more, a 30yr old diesel car is fine, but my fairly clean euro5 van is a no no, smells like a taxation to me.

To be fair I think ( if memory serves) that there is more truth in that than you may think in that the exhaust of modern engines is more 'harmful' than is that of the old plodding diesels of yesteryear because of the way the engine burns the fuel. It was all caused by the push to make engines leaner and more efficient etc........ oh well they'll forget about Nox soon and go back to kicking CO2 aka yer petrol engine..........

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[stuartholmes]

To be fair I think ( if memory serves) that there is more truth in that than you may think in that the exhaust of modern engines is more 'harmful' than is that of the old plodding diesels of yesteryear because of the way the engine burns the fuel. It was all caused by the push to make engines leaner and more efficient etc........ oh well they'll forget about Nox soon and go back to kicking CO2 aka yer petrol engine..........

I definitely think there's something in that. I remember when unleaded petrol was a new thing (or maybe it was cats, I'm not totally sure!) people in some areas benefitted but, from what I remember there was much less fuss about the fact that new smaller particles of doom would be created that had the power to do more harm because they could be wind-borne over much greater distances.
Anybody else remember that ?

 

[Peter Nicol]

Yes, it will be until such time as Euro 7 comes out (which for the larger motorhomes will be in 2027, but you know how these dates get moved on by a few years .... )
or
At least 25% of the private vehicles on the road are electric.

Either way I think Euro 6 is safe, even in urban/LEZ areas, until at least the mid 2030's

Although I can foresee a slow introduction of a progressively higher toll for entering a LEZ from the early 2030's onwards. Whereas Euro 5 vehicles are already effectively banned from the LEZ zones

Hence: I would not buy a Euro 5 (or earlier) diesel powered vehicle, unless it was either dirt cheap (IE less than half price of the the same vehicle, one year newer and Euro 6), or it was a banger intended for short term use.

As I stated earlier, I think Euro 5 vehicles are grossly overpriced.
Within a few years people who have spent their hard earned cash on Euro 5 motorhomes will end up being stuck with the motorhome equivalent of a home in negative equity.

I don't think there are any plans for Euro 7 (the technology can't be developed economically). The ban would be on all ICE engines.

 

[2x2camper]

It's so easy for people to say they would never own anything below a euro 6 for many that's simply not a option. What ever way you look at it restricting travel in this way is communism. Everyone be the same except us that can afford it. What is happening is undemocratic and at the same time a massive money making scandal.

I worked very hard to get my old motorhome and will I give it up not on there nelly

As usual thinking that travel is only possible with a motor vehicle.

 

[pagey]

So back to the days of the masters riding and the peasants walking. I'm not very keen on that.,
Following that logic we will go back to the majority of people never leaving the village they're born in, perhaps we should go back to an agricultural economy too?

See post #13

 

[Brains]

I don't think there are any plans for Euro 7 (the technology can't be developed economically). The ban would be on all ICE engines.

Agreed.
The question in "when" and "where"

Centre of major cities, Chargeable within 3-5 years, banned within 5-7 years?
Centre of all cities, 7-10 years ?
Environs of all cities and large towns 10-15 years ?

However and whenever it is phased in, many of us here will see the end of the fossil fuelled vehicles in towns within our lifetime.

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[Dazzola]

As usual thinking that travel is only possible with a motor vehicle.

Where I live, travel is indeed only possible with private transport, I work 8 miles from home, getting there on public transport would take 2hrs each way.
Cycling is impossible due to terrain / road network.