Euro 4 and 5

[ashleyalcaline]

Hello everyone, this question keeps coming up
Just trying to get a general idea of how people are dealing with restriction to anything below euro 6 ? Is this a bigger problem for commercial users ? My current van is only euro 5 but looking at coach conversion which within my budget tends to be euro4 - would appreciate your answers
Regards

 

[jongood]

Whilst foot and cycles may be an eco friendly method of transport for short distances, travelling further afield requires some other form of travel and if you think horses might be suitable you'd be very wrong, instead of dieing from lung disease people would be dieing from fly born diseases from the millions of flies living on the tons of horse dung that would be littering our streets. Don't believe me? We've been there before, read the following article and you'll get the idea.

The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894

By the late 1800s, large cities all around the world were drowning in horse manure. The London Times predicted in 1894 that in 50 years time, every street in London would be buried under nine feet of manure.

www.historic-uk.com

There's certainly a horse manure crisis in this thread - a poster who makes a habit of posting speculation as fact.

 

[Brains]

Sorry mate but a horse isn't freedom to my self and personally don't believe all the properganda that's out there the air we breathe has never been cleaner in my life time. Theres a natural progression for vehicles being updated in 20 years time I would be happy to have a euro 6. As above restrictions on movement via peoples ability to pay is undemocratic. When it's a freedom that people died for its communism

I agree that the air in the UK urban areas is cleaner now than it has been in the last 200 years.

However, it just means we have reduced the death rate.
In London in December 1952 about 12,000 people died due to pollution.
Today the figure is about 6,000 deaths due to pollution in an entire year in London

Obviously that is 6,000 too many, the majority of the deaths are due to fossil fuel pollution from vehicles and domestic boilers. Therefore equally obviously the fossil fuel burning engines and boilers need to be phased out as soon as possible.
Doing it over 20 years will kill another 72,000 people in London alone.
(Or to keep it local to you, wipe out the entire population of Chesterfield)

You do not have a 'right' to drive any vehicle, you never had.
It's nothing to do with democracy, no one ever fought for the 'right' for you to drive what you like where you like. Same as you never had the right to own a horse or a cycle.

You still have 'freedom of movement' which means as a pedestrian (or a cyclist or horse rider) you have "the right" to use the pubic road system to go where you like.

Right back to Roman times, travel in the capitalist countries has always been only limited by money.
Unlike the communist countries where public travel is subsidised by central taxation.
Therefore if you hark back to the good old days where you can travel for very little, I'm sure China, Belarus or North Korea would be happy to have you as a tourist.

 

[Brains]

Whilst foot and cycles may be an eco friendly method of transport for short distances, travelling further afield requires some other form of travel and if you think horses might be suitable you'd be very wrong, instead of dieing from lung disease people would be dieing from fly born diseases from the millions of flies living on the tons of horse dung that would be littering our streets. Don't believe me? We've been there before, read the following article and you'll get the idea.

The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894

By the late 1800s, large cities all around the world were drowning in horse manure. The London Times predicted in 1894 that in 50 years time, every street in London would be buried under nine feet of manure.

www.historic-uk.com

I live in London, my area was developed in 1890's.
Rather than running the roads along the contours so that every house is built on the level as you would today, in my area all the roads are built on the slope, so that the horse shit runs downhill to the poor areas!

 

[Bobby dazzler]

Yes I do have a right to drive my vehicle I bought it in good faith i paid for it legally this commie government is just makings it a crime for so called facts and figures that are disputed by a great deal of other scientists as about it's just a scam quick question would you be prepared to give up motorhoming if you could only afford to drive a old motorhome

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[Bobby dazzler]

Why would I go to China where there are 1000s of coal fired power stations polluting the atmosphere

 

[Bobby dazzler]

Anyway I am done now see what the future brings regarding what people believe and what they will put up with enjoy your vans people

 

[Bobby dazzler]

To answer the original thread you just have to buy the best motorhome you can afford and enjoy it without getting in to loads of debt that's my view

 

[L' Hobo]

OK it seems official we should all turn our m homes into shed and return to the dark ages but we won't be able to light fires to cook and keep warm so what next

What are we going to cook on without putting pollutants into the atmosphere? Boiling hot Geysers are the only thing I can think of, even wind and wave and solar power parts must be made using energy?

 

[ChrisL]

I agree that the air in the UK urban areas is cleaner now than it has been in the last 200 years.

However, it just means we have reduced the death rate.
In London in December 1952 about 12,000 people died due to pollution.
Today the figure is about 6,000 deaths due to pollution in an entire year in London

Obviously that is 6,000 too many, the majority of the deaths are due to fossil fuel pollution from vehicles and domestic boilers. Therefore equally obviously the fossil fuel burning engines and boilers need to be phased out as soon as possible.
Doing it over 20 years will kill another 72,000 people in London alone.
(Or to keep it local to you, wipe out the entire population of Chesterfield)

You do not have a 'right' to drive any vehicle, you never had.
It's nothing to do with democracy, no one ever fought for the 'right' for you to drive what you like where you like. Same as you never had the right to own a horse or a cycle.

You still have 'freedom of movement' which means as a pedestrian (or a cyclist or horse rider) you have "the right" to use the pubic road system to go where you like.

Right back to Roman times, travel in the capitalist countries has always been only limited by money.
Unlike the communist countries where public travel is subsidised by central taxation.
Therefore if you hark back to the good old days where you can travel for very little, I'm sure China, Belarus or North Korea would be happy to have you as a tourist.

This must be the way forward I think, maybe all those in favour of Mayor Khan's clean air zone can lead by example and get one of these.

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[Brains]

What are we going to cook on without putting pollutants into the atmosphere? Boiling hot Geysers are the only thing I can think of, even wind and wave and solar power parts must be made using energy?

Move the entire power production to renewables.
So that even the parts made for Wind/Wave/Solar/Hydro generation are made using renewable power.

Major fossil based power production will largely disappear within the lifetime of many of us on this forum.

100 years from now, (the lifetime of our grandchildren being born today) the idea of everyone having a fossil powered car and heating system will see as archaic as our great grandparents time when 'everyone' had a horse, travelled long distance using coal fuelled steam power and heated their house using open coal fires.

 

[Brains]

This must be the way forward I think, maybe all those in favour of Mayor Khan's clean air zone can lead by example and get one of these.

Anyone that thinks Mayor Khan has another option is deluded.
He has done the bare minimum required to not quite scrape through.

Come the next elections I'm sure that whomever the Tory candidate is will promise to scrap all the anti-pollution restrictions.
(But I'll bet this time they won't be as stupid to actually put it in writing on the side of a bus like the last Mayor)

They will then find out that in fact Khan has not gone far enough and will need to instigate far more draconian restrictions. (Which I'm sure they will then blame on Khan for not doing in the first place)

 

[Just smiffy]

I’ve just driven across France and will be going into Italy and I’ve been through some major cities, I haven’t got a single sticker on the windscreen….

I’m such a rebel….

 

[ChrisL]

Anyone that thinks Mayor Khan has another option is deluded.

Perhaps anyone who thinks Mayor Khan's main motivation is clean air rather then fund raising is delusional? It all depends on your point of view.

 

[Bobby dazzler]

Move the entire power production to renewables.
So that even the parts made for Wind/Wave/Solar/Hydro generation are made using renewable power.

Major fossil based power production will largely disappear within the lifetime of many of us on this forum.

100 years from now, (the lifetime of our grandchildren being born today) the idea of everyone having a fossil powered car and heating system will see as archaic as our great grandparents time when 'everyone' had a horse, travelled long distance using coal fuelled steam power and heated their house using open coal fir

Move the entire power production to renewables.
So that even the parts made for Wind/Wave/Solar/Hydro generation are made using renewable power.

Major fossil based power production will largely disappear within the lifetime of many of us on this forum.

100 years from now, (the lifetime of our grandchildren being born today) the idea of everyone having a fossil powered car and heating system will see as archaic as our great grandparents time when 'everyone' had a horse, travelled long distance using coal fuelled steam power and heated their house using open coal fires.

Hahaha would anyone like to buy some snake oil it cures everything honestly it's the future lol

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[Neil S]

.

 

[L' Hobo]

Move the entire power production to renewables.
So that even the parts made for Wind/Wave/Solar/Hydro generation are made using renewable power.

What you say might be true especially as they have now re-registered Nuclear as a 'renewable' or as a non pollutant source, but even with that, they are going to be lucky to supply ALL the electricity that will be needed to run everything on electricity by 2030 as it takes so long to build a Nuclear Power Station and they will need, at least, the 2 more that are already in planning or construction.

The question is, do we really want an alternative which could, in the form of an explosion, kill millions?

PS. Also, what a lot of people who are in favour of EV seem to forget is, it will also take a lot of electricity (if that's all we have) to scrap and destroy all the obsolete fossil fuelled vehicles and machinery whilst building new ones.

 

[jongood]

PS. Also, what a lot of people who are in favour of EV seem to forget is, it will also take a lot of electricity (if that's all we have) to scrap and destroy all the obsolete fossil fuelled vehicles and machinery whilst building new ones.

I feel this point is too often overlooked. I can see the logic of insisting that vehicles that are running high mileages should be as clean as possible, but to apply the same logic to low mileage vehicles is mad. When I look at our 2 cars, they do about 5000 miles pa between them, If we lived in a city with an LEZ I cannot imagine how long it would take for the improved emissions in the newer ones to overcome the production emmissions.

 

[Lofty1]

All seems wrong to me,I have to use more fuel to avoid areas, and yet I am paying road tax for the use of the roads,is it not logical that I should get a tax reduction as I cannot use some of the roads now.

 

[Brains]

Perhaps anyone who thinks Mayor Khan's main motivation is clean air rather then fund raising is delusional? It all depends on your point of view.

There are two tasks:

1: To massively reduce (ideally eliminate) fossil fueled vehicles from London as soon as possible, as thousands are being killed every year.
2: To reduce considerably (>50%) the number of underutilised vehicles (ie 1 person in a private car) on the roads of London.

If you were appointed Mayor tomorrow.
What would be your chosen solution(s) ?

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[Ianb]

Hello everyone, this question keeps coming up
Just trying to get a general idea of how people are dealing with restriction to anything below euro 6 ? Is this a bigger problem for commercial users ? My current van is only euro 5 but looking at coach conversion which within my budget tends to be euro4 - would appreciate your answers
Regards

It’s not an issue for my E4 camper. I use it to keep away from busy cities and not visit them. I like open spaces.
With regards to my business, I’ve made the decision not to service anywhere within the M25. Yes, clients are not happy but working quality of life is much better outside of London.

 

[Peter Nicol]

I have a 2015 Peugeot Boxer based Elddis Majestic which does not use Ad Blue. I take it that it's likely to be Euro 5? Is there a way I can find out? Would the V5 tell me anything or the vehicle handbook?

It's likely to be Euro 4 unless you have a DPF (diesel particulate filter) in which case it's Euro 5. You'd know if you have a DPF if you sometimes have to drive non-stop for 20 miles or so to turn off the warning light. Euro 5 was unpopular in commercial vehicles precisely because of this and the difficulty of coping with stop/start journeys. Adblue? Euro 6.

 

[Neil S]

There are two tasks:

1: To massively reduce (ideally eliminate) fossil fueled vehicles from London as soon as possible, as thousands are being killed every year.
2: To reduce considerably (>50%) the number of underutilised vehicles (ie 1 person in a private car) on the roads of London.

If you were appointed Mayor tomorrow.
What would be your chosen solution(s) ?

So when are you getting rid of your diesel Motorhome since you seem to advocate all these draconian measures

 

[L' Hobo]

It’s not an issue for my E4 camper. I use it to keep away from busy cities and not visit them. I like open spaces.
With regards to my business, I’ve made the decision not to service anywhere within the M25. Yes, clients are not happy but working quality of life is much better outside of London.

When I had my Coach company on the outskirts of Greater London, if anyone wanted to use the services of my 'Classic Vehicles' to go into Central London, it would cost them the extra charge that I had to pay. (£100 per day, IF I remember correctly)
(I personally objected to this charge while there were Airliners dumping fuel and exhaust fumes over London as they came into land at Heathrow and Diesel trains (in an emergency) belching black smoke while entering London.)

Most, after I explained, were happy with this, perhaps you could try it and leave it up to the customers to decide while you, in your own way, got the message across to them?

 

[Barchetta47]

There are two tasks:

1: To massively reduce (ideally eliminate) fossil fueled vehicles from London as soon as possible, as thousands are being killed every year.
2: To reduce considerably (>50%) the number of underutilised vehicles (ie 1 person in a private car) on the roads of London.

If you were appointed Mayor tomorrow.
What would be your chosen solution(s) ?

I’m sure the situation is much more complex than this!

It depends where the ‘problem’ is with NOx /NO2 or indeed other pollutants.

For example depending on which data you look at you can conclude that ‘new’ low mileage euro 6 vehicles produce relatively high levels of NO2 compared to high use euro 6. Interestingly high mileage euro 3-4 over 5-10 years show a decrease of c.40 % in NO2 emitted when compared to their emissions when new. However overall NOx remains the same.

It’s complex….

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[L' Hobo]

All seems wrong to me,I have to use more fuel to avoid areas, and yet I am paying road tax for the use of the roads,is it not logical that I should get a tax reduction as I cannot use some of the roads now.

Sadly it's not called 'Road Tax' but 'Excise Duty' I believe?

 

[Ianb]

When I had my Coach company on the outskirts of Greater London, if anyone wanted to use the services of my 'Classic Vehicles' to go into Central London, it would cost them the extra charge that I had to pay. (£100 per day, IF I remember correctly)
(I personally objected to this charge while there were Airliners dumping fuel and exhaust fumes over London as they came into land at Heathrow and Diesel trains (in an emergency) belching black smoke while entering London.)

Most, after I explained, were happy with this, perhaps you could try it and leave it up to the customers to decide while you, in your own way, got the message across to them?

I get where you are coming from but work life is actually nicer for everyone as we now work closer to the beach than the city. It’s also less stressful driving as we’re not in constant fear of daily fines.

 

[L' Hobo]

Perhaps anyone who thinks Mayor Khan's main motivation is clean air rather then fund raising is delusional? It all depends on your point of view.

He could reduce the emissions in London overnight by banning ALL Private Cars and only allowing Essential Vehicles,
( Carless Londoners would still be 200% better provisioned for travel than a Carless person in the countryside) but he wants to get elected again!

 

[ChrisL]

There are two tasks:

1: To massively reduce (ideally eliminate) fossil fueled vehicles from London as soon as possible, as thousands are being killed every year.
2: To reduce considerably (>50%) the number of underutilised vehicles (ie 1 person in a private car) on the roads of London.

If you were appointed Mayor tomorrow.
What would be your chosen solution(s) ?

Well personally i'd call into question that thousands are dieing every year because of diesel particulates, I lived near Heathrow all my life and the last 22 years of that before retirement inside greater London, working around Camden and surrounding areas, I don't know anyone who died with or suffered from serious respiratory conditions who wasn't a smoker. And with regard to point 2, cheaper and more importantly in London safer public transport, once I got an over 60's Oyster card I used that in preference to driving.

I sold my flat and am now full timing, so no longer live in London, the only reason i'd visit London now would be to visit Ronnie Scott's or attend another gig but I wouldn't be driving my motorhome to do that, it would have been nice to park my motorhome up in my old local pubs car park and visit friends but i'm not willing to pay £300 for the privilege, of course if I was wealthy that would be okay.

 

[stuartholmes]

The Titanic headline is correct, as you say it depends on perspective.

However media bias is not subjective.
It can, and is, measured, on a daily basis by multiple sources.

Whilst there are very small micro-percentages differences between the various media bias charts, the Guardian, The BBC and the Telegraph all come out as 'accurate' reporting.

The Guardian is slightly left of centre (0.8%)
The BBC is very slightly right of centre (0.67%)
The Telegraph is very right of centre (20%)
'Extreme right' which is over 50%, is 'news' companies such as GB News, (who are now paying six figure fines to OffCom for telling lies)

The news sources deemed 'most accurate' in the UK are, in order, the FT, The Guardian, The Times and the BBC.

If your main source of news is, for example, the Daily Mail and GB News you would be classed as 'extreme right wing' you would also possibly believe that Jeremy Corbin was a fully paid up member of the Communist Party.

If your main source of news is, for example, The Morning Star and Squarkbox you would be classed as 'extreme left wing' and you would possibly believe that Suella Braverman was a fully paid up member of the Nazi Party

Ultimately you should get your news from a variety of sources, but use the FT/Guardian/Times/BBC as the main 'anchor' source and then see the 'spin' your chosen source of news is putting on the story.

Actually I need to apologise to the Press & Journal, at least in respect of that particular headline, as further investigation reveals it to be an urban myth. https://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/2015/news/scottish-daily-sinks-myth-over-titanic-headline-again/
As a long-time resident of that lovely (but chilly) city I should have known better, but despite that technicality, I think my point is still valid - ie. it doesn't matter what other people's standpoints are or what efforts are applied to establishing a neutral viewpoint, most people are still going to rate news outlets' 'bias' in accordance with their own beliefs. Which is why the conservative party is always going to accuse the BBC of being 'lefty' (or worse) while the Labour party, when in power, accuse them of 'establishment bias'.

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[stuartholmes]

Well personally i'd call into question that thousands are dieing every year because of diesel particulates, I lived near Heathrow all my life and the last 22 years of that before retirement inside greater London, working around Camden and surrounding areas, I don't know anyone who died with or suffered from serious respiratory conditions who wasn't a smoker. And with regard to point 2, cheaper and more importantly in London safer public transport, once I got an over 60's Oyster card I used that in preference to driving.

I sold my flat and am now full timing, so no longer live in London, the only reason i'd visit London now would be to visit Ronnie Scott's or attend another gig but I wouldn't be driving my motorhome to do that, it would have been nice to park my motorhome up in my old local pubs car park and visit friends but i'm not willing to pay £300 for the privilege, of course if I was wealthy that would be okay.

You may be right or you may just be lucky, but Heathrow is upwind & I can't help thinking that may be a factor...