Caravan and Motorhome Club's website down! (4 Viewers)

[Coolcats]

How is IP more resilient than analogue? Progress going backwards as well as forwards. There hasn't been a referendum. Despite the campaign by the Mail to stop or delay the switchover rollout, it is forced on us all by an overweening management of a privatised and poorly regulated industry.

There is no 100% failsafe solution for emergency contact services such as Careline, even if the box comes with a backup 5G SIM card.

This thread is a prime example of what should not happen. In this case, a Club's IT system for site bookings. Offline for several days. Members having to phone site wardens to make bookings. Ad hoc paper records kept at site level. Concern over payments and data security (whether the concerns are unfounded is neither here nor there). Such a catastrophic IT failure shouldn't have happened. Where is the resilience?

Sod's law - something like that is inevitable, with the IP internet connection dropping out just when the vulnerable person has a fall, a common occurrence and the main raison d'etre for things such as Careline. In that scenario, old folks are going to be left lying on the floor for hours unable to call for help, perhaps until a carer arrives next morning. Some will suffer long drawn out painful avoidable deaths. That is inevitable.

In the bright sunny green uplands of this digital utopia the worst case scenarios (e.g. power outages) tend to be dismissed too readily as the price worth paying for convenience. Or cost saving.

. Firstly it’s doesn’t matter if it’s a quill pen or pencil all are writing instruments. You can’t wish for parchment and quill to be the mainstay of modern writing as quaint at is which is literally what you are arguing.

Telecommunications has changed, if its fibre you do not need hundreds of engineers maintaining. I am sure there will be some who miss operator connection and the. Of course strowger exchanges that would survive an EMP bomb then we have digital exchanges system x etc they only need one man and his dog per exchange and the dog is to stop the engineer getting bored. Hiss pops and poor connections are mainly a thing of the past. The digital exchange technology is no longer being made why so? It’s because IP networks can be far more resilient than a simple voice line. That Analogue phone is converted to a digital signal as soon as it enters the exchange a codec conveys the analogue voice to digital at 64kb packets. So analogue is already digital and being transmitted over data networks. A call going to America could have one part of the call going via sea cable the other via satellite it then all gets re joined back in the network in the US.

IP allows for a far more flexible way of treating all traffic including voice, it just that the conversion to digital will happen in the home instead of the exchange. From an environmental perspective this is good the telco’s reduce the power usage from around 2.3 watts to 0.03 watts.

Adapt and change is the best option and if you want to understand more about the origins and how resilient IP networks can be read ‘When wizards stay up late at night’ Paul Barron (US) was researching up networks in case of a nuclear strike. Donald Davies (U.K.) was doing similar research and it’s is down to Donald that the term data packet exists.

Have a read if your interested it’s a cracking book and may help alay fears you have, regarding networking.

https://monoskop.org/images/e/ee/Hafner_Katie_Lyon_Matthew_Where_Wizards_Stay_Up_Late_The_Origins_Of_The_Internet.pdf

One thing is correct nothing is 100% fail proof

So here is a question regarding the daily Fails campaign, are thier rich owners going to purchase out of date and equipment that is no longer manufactured is a fools campaign they are running, to whip up n argument which is what they do it’s poor journalism. The daily Fail should be campaigning for free ups solutions for the vulnerable if they are that concerned

 

[Guigsy]

My knowledge isn't great, but I think the fibre that's going into people's homes is a technology called PON. It's a Passive Optical Network, it doesn't need power until it gets back to the exchange (the OLT). There's no power required at the on-street cabinets. So if you have a battery backup on your modem, I think it'll still work during a power cut.

 

[LithiumConvert]

System X [telephone exchanges] only need one man and his dog [to maintain].

The dog is there to stop the man meddling with the equipment.
and, as a result the exchanges are still going well after their design lifetime.

 

[Coolcats]

My knowledge isn't great, but I think the fibre that's going into people's homes is a technology called PON. It's a Passive Optical Network, it doesn't need power until it gets back to the exchange (the OLT). There's no power required at the on-street cabinets. So if you have a battery backup on your modem, I think it'll still work during a power cut.

Correct you need power at the exchange and at home and if you wish for it to carry on working you need a ups this is what supports the broadband router and it’s only job is ‘what if there is a power cut.

 

[tonyidle]

As you rightly say no-one likes change (for the worse).

Your techy solution may be all fine and dandy in principle, if somewhat more complicated for the elderly consumer, and less failsafe in the event of prolonged power outage than existing analogue landlines (Careline boxes already have backup batteries). The dangers and risks have been pointed out many times including the risk of internet connections falling over and even cellular phone masts eventually running out of backup battery in a worst case scenario.

In my view such complexity offends the KISS principle. The overriding goal seems to be to save BT some costs; if, as a consequence old people die because no first responders were summoned, presumably for BT that will be acceptable collateral damage in return for "progress". Bonuses all round. A bit of PR is all that is required for damage limitation when the Mail headlines this story on the front page. Soon forgotten in our short news cycle.

Is BT Openreach really going to provide that solution for free? How many customers will fall through the cracks? Hmmm.

No doubt the same ones that couldn't cope with a dial when operator service disappeared. BT currently maintain two distinct networks: one with exchanges doing call switching and the other carrying internet traffic. Why wouldn't they be merged?

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[Guigsy]

No doubt the same ones that couldn't cope with a dial when operator service disappeared. BT currently maintain two distinct networks: one with exchanges doing call switching and the other carrying internet traffic. Why wouldn't they be merged?

Probably very different constraints. You need very few hubs for internet switching. They don't have to be situated on expensive land in town centres. But it needs to be close to an internet main line. And the racks of gear still kick off a fair amount of heat, so you need good power and air conditioning.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Whilst I agree with you, it is an unfortunate way of life that the world marches on and there will be winners and losers. Maintaining two systems is too costly to BT / Openreach and their shareholders, so the progress towards VOIP is inevitable if fear. Equally in time we will all have to get used to the demise of ICE cars.

Legislation could fix that. Force BT to maintain both systems. What is the value of a human life? The ruling class dosen't give a **** about excess deaths.

As for the demise of ICE cars, nobody banned the sale of horses during the last century. Horses had an important part in the recent Coronation.

Instead of natural progression and freedom of choice, we are facing authoritarian "consumer transformation". I object. I am not going to "get used to" anything of the sort. Stuff that. I want a V8 although right now I can't afford one, sadly.

 

[starquake]

Legislation could fix that. Force BT to maintain both systems. What is the value of a human life? The ruling class dosen't give a **** about excess deaths.

You are talking about companies that either no longer exist or are not even British ... good luck with that. BT can only do as much as their suppliers and Siemens and Marconi equipment is no longer manufacturered or repaired.

You can't regulate things like the above, and the regulator well knows this given there is not a company in England who will take this on. Theres no demand for it, as the IP equipment is easier, cheaper to maintain, so you are talking state subsidy for anyone to take this one.

I would note the latest Careline (not the basic plan) equipment does NOT use a BT line at all -> this sounds like you trying to put a known end of service on a BT service rather than replacing end of servicable life (https://www.careline.co.uk/) equipment. Your choice is ultimately upgrade to modern Careline equipment, or lose the service.

 

[SpeedyDux]

You are talking about companies that either no longer exist or are not even British ... good luck with that. BT can only do as much as their suppliers and Siemens and Marconi equipment is no longer manufacturered or repaired.

You can't regulate things like the above, and the regulator well knows this given there is not a company in England who will take this on. Theres no demand for it, as the IP equipment is easier, cheaper to maintain, so you are talking state subsidy for anyone to take this one.

I would note the latest Careline (not the basic plan) equipment does NOT use a BT line at all -> this sounds like you trying to put a known end of service on a BT service rather than replacing end of servicable life (https://www.careline.co.uk/) equipment. Your choice is ultimately upgrade to modern Careline equipment, or lose the service.

If there is a demand for obsolete parts someone will step in. This is how the classic car scene survives. Small workshops or resourceful men in sheds. You don't necessarily have to be Siemens or Marconi.

For those elderly Careline customers without broadband service the answer seems to be that they must pay more than they would with an analogue line. From £16.99 per month (plus extra BB costs) up to from £24.99 per month. Either way, a low income pensioner gets penalised to boost BT's profits.

The top-of-the-range Complete Plan relies on a SIM card. With the mobile network providers increasingly sharing their masts it no longer follows that a SIM that is not locked to one service provider but can switch automatically to the strongest signal in the area is entirely failsafe. Even the network masts have limited battery backup. Eventually they will stop working during a worst case power outage. 5G consumes several times more electric power than 2G or 3G. There will be customers who neither have broadband nor a mobile signal where they live. Force them into care homes - would BT have to pay? Progress ...

 

[Guigsy]

Legislation could fix that. Force BT to maintain both systems. What is the value of a human life? The ruling class dosen't give a **** about excess deaths.

As for the demise of ICE cars, nobody banned the sale of horses during the last century. Horses had an important part in the recent Coronation.

Instead of natural progression and freedom of choice, we are facing authoritarian "consumer transformation". I object. I am not going to "get used to" anything of the sort. Stuff that. I want a V8 although right now I can't afford one, sadly.

You've argued that we need more freedom on cars. But less freedom on phone lines.

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[SpeedyDux]

You've argued that we need more freedom on cars. But less freedom on phone lines.

I think you have that upside down. I am advocating a choice between analogue (for those who would really benefit) and digital phone lines.

Yes, I am in favour of a free market for cars, vans etc. If BEVs truly are the future, eventually consumers will stop buying ICE vehicles. No problem with that.

What is there to be so afraid of that forces a ban on sale of ICEs in 2030, and fines manufacturers if they fail to sell enough BEVs or sell too many ICEs? It's a political conspiracy called ... wait for it ... Net Zero 2050.

 

[Guigsy]

I think you have that upside down. I am advocating a choice between analogue (for those who would really benefit) and digital phone lines.

Yes, I am in favour of a free market for cars, vans etc. If BEVs truly are the future, eventually consumers will stop buying ICE vehicles. No problem with that.

What is there to be so afraid of that forces a ban on sale of ICEs in 2030, and fines manufacturers if they fail to sell enough BEVs or sell too many ICEs? It's a political conspiracy called ... wait for it ... Net Zero 2050.

Free market forces are making analogue copper lines uneconomical to run.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Free market forces are making analogue copper lines uneconomical to run.

BT Openreach is effectively a monopoly.

That's why we have regulators like Ofcom. In theory it protects the interests of consumers. In theory.

 

[Coolcats]

If there is a demand for obsolete parts someone will step in. This is how the classic car scene survives. Small workshops or resourceful men in sheds. You don't necessarily have to be Siemens or Marconi.

For those elderly Careline customers without broadband service the answer seems to be that they must pay more than they would with an analogue line. From £16.99 per month (plus extra BB costs) up to from £24.99 per month. Either way, a low income pensioner gets penalised to boost BT's profits.

The top-of-the-range Complete Plan relies on a SIM card. With the mobile network providers increasingly sharing their masts it no longer follows that a SIM that is not locked to one service provider but can switch automatically to the strongest signal in the area is entirely failsafe. Even the network masts have limited battery backup. Eventually they will stop working during a worst case power outage. 5G consumes several times more electric power than 2G or 3G. There will be customers who neither have broadband nor a mobile signal where they live. Force them into care homes - would BT have to pay? Progress ...

Try and understand that when you’re dealing with millions of analogue phone lines, hundreds of building cannot be maintained by men in sheds.

I once brought an old fashioned candlestick phone thinking it would be quite cool. Erm no it wasn’t cool in fact it was embarrassing you need both hands to use it and can’t write when you do.

The old exchanges are going they are dead Long live the new IP phone

 

[Coolcats]

Free market forces are making analogue copper lines uneconomical to run.

Erm technology is not free market forces. The old technology is dead

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[SpeedyDux]

Try and understand that when you’re dealing with millions of analogue phone lines, hundreds of building cannot be maintained by men in sheds.

I once brought an old fashioned candlestick phone thinking it would be quite cool. Erm no it wasn’t cool in fact it was embarrassing you need both hands to use it and can’t write when you do.

The old exchanges are going they are dead Long live the new IP phone

I knew a man in a shed who made parts for our nuclear subs. You would be amazed. Also very inspirational are the Cubans who managed to keep their 1950s American cars going despite US sanctions. You are excusing the greedy and defeatist BT management. There is a lack of a "can do" attitude.

Anyway this is off-topic. The CAMC App is still not working - just checked - which kind of supports my point about your wonderful digital world.

 

[BOOMEL]

Legislation could fix that. Force BT to maintain both systems. What is the value of a human life? The ruling class dosen't give a **** about excess deaths.

As for the demise of ICE cars, nobody banned the sale of horses during the last century. Horses had an important part in the recent Coronation.

Instead of natural progression and freedom of choice, we are facing authoritarian "consumer transformation". I object. I am not going to "get used to" anything of the sort. Stuff that. I want a V8 although right now I can't afford one, sadly.

That's an interesting perspective!

 

[Coolcats]

That's an interesting perspective!

It’s interesting but how can you force a company to keep obsolete technology in place when the rest of the world has moved on.

 

[Coolcats]

I knew a man in a shed who made parts for our nuclear subs. You would be amazed. Also very inspirational are the Cubans who managed to keep their 1950s American cars going despite US sanctions. You are excusing the greedy and defeatist BT management. There is a lack of a "can do" attitude.

Anyway this is off-topic. The CAMC App is still not working - just checked - which kind of supports my point about your wonderful digital world.

How can BT be greedy and defeatist, it was PO engineers who built colossus at Bletchley park if you argued that technology should still be in place then man wouldn’t have landed on the moon we wouldn’t have MRI scanners or most of the other amazing technology we have today.

It is stated that much of the equipment is beyond design usage which is a testament to those who built it in the first place.

Many companies over the past 25 years have implemented an ip based telephony system most countries are or have migrated if you wish GB to remain in 1970 technology then its a bit of nostalgia

You hold up the CAMC site as if it is a good example of a e-commerce booking site yet we know it is not. My guess is the technology in the background for the change is robust and is unlikely to be as flaky as you fear.

All voice traffic in the U.K. even the old fashioned exchanges is digitised as soon as it reaches the equipment in the exchange so all you are worried about is the bit between the exchange and home.

 

[Guigsy]

Erm technology is not free market forces. The old technology is dead

Yes, there's cheaper, more profitable technology available. So BT moves to fibre to keep making money.

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[Otter Spotter]

deleted

 

[Peterd82]

It appears that data is still being uploaded and not every booking is showing - rang this afternoon as I could only see one of my bookings but the pleasant lady at the call centre confirmed it was on their view of the system and hopefully I should be able to see it next week. I bet they have had a fair few calls !

 

[gus-lopez]

I didn't know that such virtual cards existed. How are they obtained?

As below I have a Revolut account ,others might offer the same facility, that allows either a one use disposable card or a multiple use disposable card that can be locked after each use.

I use Revolut and that can create a one-off use virtual card.

same here. Although there are many sites when buying now that refuse to accept them.

 

[Coolcats]

Yes, there's cheaper, more profitable technology available. So BT moves to fibre to keep making money.

You may be surprised that full fibre could have been here many years ago

How Thatcher killed the UK's superfast broadband before it even existed

How Thatcher killed the UK's superfast broadband before it even existed

How old decisions crippled modern UK connections

www.techradar.com

 

[Andyb01]

I see the app is now back up (Android) and prompts you to install an updated version (which you should do, as it may patch a previous vulnerability).

If you haven't yet changed your password, you should do this as soon as you're able to login to either the app or the website.

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[Riverbankannie]

I have had an email detailing what data has been accessed and is at risk. Thankfully doesn’t affect me but there is a request not to discuss the details of the hack on social media which I guess includes FUN.
It's important that we don't raise awareness of details of the incident to the cyber criminals and our cyber security experts have advised us not to share any further details to do with the incident on social media. We would advise you to follow the same guidance.

 

[Phill D]

I have had an email detailing what data has been accessed and is at risk. Thankfully doesn’t affect me but there is a request not to discuss the details of the hack on social media which I guess includes FUN.
It's important that we don't raise awareness of details of the incident to the cyber criminals and our cyber security experts have advised us not to share any further details to do with the incident on social media. We would advise you to follow the same guidance.

call me cynical but a good excuse to reduce the bad press they will get!

had the same email;

 

[seasideBill]

I have had an email detailing what data has been accessed and is at risk. Thankfully doesn’t affect me but there is a request not to discuss the details of the hack on social media which I guess includes FUN.
It's important that we don't raise awareness of details of the incident to the cyber criminals and our cyber security experts have advised us not to share any further details to do with the incident on social media. We would advise you to follow the same guidance.

Interesting…. I got a text from them, first one ever!
Having advised folks to ‘not to share any further details to do with the incident on social media’, guess what’s being discussed on their Club Together Forum which has public access.

 

[Otter Spotter]

Sober reading

1. Club

Important Cyber Security Message from the Director General of the Caravan & Motorhome Club​

08/02/2024
Firstly, I want to let you know that the majority of Club systems, including the website and app are back online.
Following the discovery of the cyber security incident in January, we took the decision to shut down all of our internal systems and to quarantine all outward facing systems and servers (including the website and App). Also at this time, we instigated a forensic investigation by a highly experienced cyber security team.
This paid dividends when we started the process of restoring all of our systems slowly and methodically with an abundance of caution to safeguard security.
The cyber security team has now finished the forensic investigation. The findings conclude this was a highly sophisticated attack on the Club systems and the actions that were taken to protect the Club and its members were timely and appropriate. The cyber security investigation has now confirmed that unfortunately during the cyber security incident, there was the potential for unauthorised access to servers with some member data on them.
The cyber security team conducting the forensic investigation cannot confirm that any member data has been accessed, stolen or is being used in an unauthorised manner.
In the spirit of transparency we want to make you aware that the following data was held on the servers that were potentially accessed.

Mayday Breakdown Insurance
Policies from 2018 -2024
Information held includes; Name / Address / Vehicle registration number / Policy number / Start and end date / Membership number

Caravan Insurance / Caravan Cover
Policies/Covers from 2018 -2024
Information held includes; Name / Policy number / Price / Start and end date

Red Pennant Emergency Assistance
Claims from 2018 -2024
Information held includes; Name / Address / Date of Birth / Mobile phone number / Email address / Policy number/ Membership number/ Vehicle registration number / caravan vehicle identification number (VIN/Chassis No) / Information about claims made

This Red Pennant data was of members who had a claim between 2018 and 2024 and was collected in order to handle claims. Therefore the information kept may be different for each member depending on the nature of the claim, and the individuals involved. We will be writing to affected members individually if we discover any additional personal data relating to individual members other than that mentioned above.

In the interest of data security please do not contact the Club at this time and ask about your personal data. We will be writing to any affected members individually when we are able to confirm if additional personal data was included about their claims.

Our aim is not to alarm members unnecessarily, but we believe we have a responsibility as a members’ club to share details about the incident. Our membership services team along with our cyber security advisors have helped construct some key questions and answers to help reassure you.

Questions & Answers
1. Were my Credit or Debit card details accessed?
No. Please be reassured that the Club is compliant with the global Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard (PCI DSS).

2. I paid for my membership and Caravan Cover by Direct Debit. Are my Direct Debit details in the area that was potentially accessed?
No.

3. Were any of my future booking details accessed?
No. Your campsite booking data isn't stored in the area that was potentially accessed.

4. Were my Club passwords accessed?
No. Club passwords aren't stored in the area that was potentially accessed. It is always best practice to regularly change your passwords and as a precautionary measure, we suggest you change your email passwords and online passwords. It is advised that you use a combination of letters, numbers and symbols for new passwords, ideally more than 12 characters.

5. What do I need to do now?
Be vigilant, if you see an email, text or social media post, or if you are on a website that you think looks suspicious, don’t click any links or engage with it and delete it immediately.

This type of incident is a reminder that we must all remain vigilant to any unusual or spurious requests for personal details. Data security is of paramount importance to the Club, our members, guests and suppliers. We have taken further actions under the instruction of our cyber security experts to enhance the Club’s cyber security to help prevent this type of incident from happening again.

 

[Andyb01]

The cyber security team has now finished the forensic investigation. The findings conclude this was a highly sophisticated attack on the Club systems

One thing I can guarantee, it was absolutely not a highly sophisticated attack.

Why not?

Because:

1. They always say that.
2. It's almost always never true.
3. Highly skilled and capable nation-state actors - capable of mounting such attacks - don't go after a caravan and motorhome club.

However, you do now need to be on your guard for scams by the sounds of it.

The HaveIBeenPwned website is a useful resource to check if your data has been compromised but it's not immediate so won't show yet.

Don't have nightmares

Andy

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