Caravan and Motorhome Club's website down!

[Two on Tour]

"Our forensic investigation into this incident continues with our expert partners."

 

[starquake]

This one makes me laugh, but not at you, the issue is that BT and others cannot run an analogue service's the world has changed Siemens, GEC, Marconi et al do not make exchange equipment that power's this stuff ( some of those organisations do not exist anymore). Apart from the equipment no longer being manufactured everything is IP everything has a mac address.

If you have fibre to the premises you cannot get an analogue service and you cannot pour power down it, the fibre is dark until you have a box powered at both ends. The coms providers will have power at their end along with UPS and if sensible generators. the consumer if they need it will have to provide their own power and UPS, just as we have at home.

The world has changed the world is IP, it is a massive change for the country, if you have an elderly relative you are worried about then contact the service provide (not open reach) and see what they can offer I suspect there will be something for the vulnerable there normally is.

Changing from Analogue to Digital (IP) is not an option it is happening

You mention power cuts, but it's just as libel for overhead cables to fall in a storm or a cable accidentally cut in the street these things happen.

I wrote a similar response but didn't send it. Reality is you can't get parts for old exchange equipment, and it's hanging on a thread.

Thats why my old employers swapped theirs for IP equipment -> the fact it saves a conference room seating about 24 of space from switching to IP based equipment was a byproduct, not the primary reason. (we went from a conference room to 4U of 19" rack space for 2500 extensions).

But the whole needing UPS and battery backup is arguably getting better as a result of this change and move to real fibre as part of this switch than it was if you had internet and FTTC service historically. FTTC was an interim technology, and effetcively needs power in your house, at the street cabinet, and at your house. As real fibre is passive it moves things back to the status quo before of needing at your house and exchange only -> I am aware some analogue equipment is entirely exchange powered but as mentioned by Coolcats if something breaks on those exchanges, today it just won't get fixed as you can't buy the equipment.

In my work in IT I've came across similar with working (VMS) stype VAX computers from the 70's in early 2000. The OS and software still worked fine then, but the need to modernise came from not being able to source spares, not the lack of the system not working or being fit for purpose. Sometimes the VAX equipment was virtualised, but mostly it was replaced with more modern equipment on modern CPU's. That said, in that case the VAX equipment took a small 5 a side pitch of space, and moved in that case to about 8U of space! But the space saving was a bonus, not the reason for the work -> it was purely the lack of supportability that caused it, and that is what BT is running into with analogue exchnages now... (BT actually purchased the spares from the office exchnage I mentioned above to run the local telephony at the time as it was same system they used).

 

[Aspenshaw]

As a long term member of the Caravan Club/CMC I'm wondering why the IT team didn't tread cautiously when they put in these systems rather than waiting for a disaster to happen. For many a year the CMC Forum had members berating the IT systems that were brought in.

I wonder whether the CMC could be better dumping the IT and reverting to the old telephone to the sites approach. It was good at that. Getting the current system back up and running could be the worst the CMC can do. There needs a thorough review why the CMC cannot run IT services - it is not easy as we see in other organisation who balls it up.

One thing I learned when, as a layman being involved in introducing IT developments, is that it is better to buy a proven IT system and then adjust to that.

I wish they do come a better CMC that it was because I have enjoyed many years. I'd prefer to carry on enjoying the CMC service it
can deliver rather than aching at those it can't.

 

[BOOMEL]

As a long term member of the Caravan Club/CMC I'm wondering why the IT team didn't tread cautiously when they put in these systems rather than waiting for a disaster to happen. For many a year the CMC Forum had members berating the IT systems that were brought in.

I wonder whether the CMC could be better dumping the IT and reverting to the old telephone to the sites approach. It was good at that. Getting the current system back up and running could be the worst the CMC can do. There needs a thorough review why the CMC cannot run IT services - it is not easy as we see in other organisation who balls it up.

One thing I learned when, as a layman being involved in introducing IT developments, is that it is better to buy a proven IT system and then adjust to that.

I wish they do come a better CMC that it was because I have enjoyed many years. I'd prefer to carry on enjoying the CMC service it
can deliver rather than aching at those it can't.

Something for the post office to learn

 

[Peterd82]

Am I the only one getting the feeling that this isn’t going to come back ? This is an incredible long time these days, a lot of businesses would have gone to the wall by now.

Fancied getting away in a couple of weeks to celebrate my big (C1 losing) birthday but I don’t want to ring their booking line to find where is open and has availabilty, would rather look myself. Time to take my business elsewhere.

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[Pausim]

Am I the only one getting the feeling that this isn’t going to come back ? This is an incredible long time these days, a lot of businesses would have gone to the wall by now.

When the Calor site went down last year it didn’t come back for about 6 months and that was just an update, not a hack. I get the impression that these systems are so complicated that there are very few people capable of repairing them.

 

[cyberyacht]

It seems to be more or less back online today. Just as snail-like as it ever was.

 

[Guigsy]

As a long term member of the Caravan Club/CMC I'm wondering why the IT team didn't tread cautiously when they put in these systems rather than waiting for a disaster to happen. For many a year the CMC Forum had members berating the IT systems that were brought in.

I wonder whether the CMC could be better dumping the IT and reverting to the old telephone to the sites approach. It was good at that. Getting the current system back up and running could be the worst the CMC can do. There needs a thorough review why the CMC cannot run IT services - it is not easy as we see in other organisation who balls it up.

One thing I learned when, as a layman being involved in introducing IT developments, is that it is better to buy a proven IT system and then adjust to that.

I wish they do come a better CMC that it was because I have enjoyed many years. I'd prefer to carry on enjoying the CMC service it
can deliver rather than aching at those it can't.

I would not use their service if it was all telephone. Knowing what sites are available and when with a few clicks is far more convenient. Their site isn't great, but it's still a thousand times better than phoning individual locations.

IT security is a moving target. What was a secure site when designed, built and tested, will become increasingly vulnerable as time passes. New exploits and vulnerabilities are found all the time. And then there's the human factor. If someone is phished and gets tricked into giving up access.

 

[Richard Hill]

It seems to be more or less back online today. Just as snail-like as it ever was.

CAMC App is still down at the moment though.

 

[SpeedyDux]

This one makes me laugh, but not at you, the issue is that BT and others cannot run an analogue service's the world has changed Siemens, GEC, Marconi et al do not make exchange equipment that power's this stuff ( some of those organisations do not exist anymore). Apart from the equipment no longer being manufactured everything is IP everything has a mac address.

If you have fibre to the premises you cannot get an analogue service and you cannot pour power down it, the fibre is dark until you have a box powered at both ends. The coms providers will have power at their end along with UPS and if sensible generators. the consumer if they need it will have to provide their own power and UPS, just as we have at home.

The world has changed the world is IP, it is a massive change for the country, if you have an elderly relative you are worried about then contact the service provide (not open reach) and see what they can offer I suspect there will be something for the vulnerable there normally is.

Changing from Analogue to Digital (IP) is not an option it is happening

You mention power cuts, but it's just as libel for overhead cables to fall in a storm or a cable accidentally cut in the street these things happen.

How is IP more resilient than analogue? Progress going backwards as well as forwards. There hasn't been a referendum. Despite the campaign by the Mail to stop or delay the switchover rollout, it is forced on us all by an overweening management of a privatised and poorly regulated industry.

There is no 100% failsafe solution for emergency contact services such as Careline, even if the box comes with a backup 5G SIM card.

This thread is a prime example of what should not happen. In this case, a Club's IT system for site bookings. Offline for several days. Members having to phone site wardens to make bookings. Ad hoc paper records kept at site level. Concern over payments and data security (whether the concerns are unfounded is neither here nor there). Such a catastrophic IT failure shouldn't have happened. Where is the resilience?

Sod's law - something like that is inevitable, with the IP internet connection dropping out just when the vulnerable person has a fall, a common occurrence and the main raison d'etre for things such as Careline. In that scenario, old folks are going to be left lying on the floor for hours unable to call for help, perhaps until a carer arrives next morning. Some will suffer long drawn out painful avoidable deaths. That is inevitable.

In the bright sunny green uplands of this digital utopia the worst case scenarios (e.g. power outages) tend to be dismissed too readily as the price worth paying for convenience. Or cost saving.

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[Guigsy]

How is IP more resilient than analogue? Progress going backwards as well as forwards. There hasn't been a referendum. Despite the campaign by the Mail to stop or delay the switchover rollout, it is forced on us all by an overweening management of a privatised and poorly regulated industry.

There is no 100% failsafe solution for emergency contact services such as Careline, even if the box comes with a backup 5G SIM card.

This thread is a prime example of what should not happen. In this case, a Club's IT system for site bookings. Offline for several days. Members having to phone site wardens to make bookings. Ad hoc paper records kept at site level. Concern over payments and data security (whether the concerns are unfounded is neither here nor there). Such a catastrophic IT failure shouldn't have happened. Where is the resilience?

Sod's law - something like that is inevitable, with the IP internet connection dropping out just when the vulnerable person has a fall, a common occurrence and the main raison d'etre for things such as Careline. In that scenario, old folks are going to be left lying on the floor for hours unable to call for help, perhaps until a carer arrives next morning. Some will suffer long drawn out painful avoidable deaths. That is inevitable.

In the bright sunny green uplands of this digital utopia the worst case scenarios (e.g. power outages) tend to be dismissed too readily as the price worth paying for convenience. Or cost saving.

Digital brings a bunch of benefits. Real time monitoring. Location identification. Connection with much smaller mobile devices. There are many advantages.

And copper phone lines are far from reliable.

 

[Otter Spotter]

A story of the Blind leading the blind reported in Practical Motorhome magazine this month CAMC new Chairman has nominated the Royal Countryside fund as their nominated charity for this year, so CAMC will be offering ‘Expert business training’ who the hell are they kidding?
Classic case of getting your own house in order before you spout off to others

 

[SpeedyDux]

Digital brings a bunch of benefits. Real time monitoring. Location identification. Connection with much smaller mobile devices. There are many advantages.

And copper phone lines are far from reliable.

You are missng the point. These vulnerable elderly folk aren't able to use mobile devices. We have tried that with the Duxette's 95-year-old mum. She was given a Doro mobile model designed for someone like her. Still no good.

 

[Guigsy]

You are missng the point. These vulnerable elderly folk aren't able to use mobile devices. We have tried that with the Duxette's 95-year-old mum. She was given a Doro mobile model designed for someone like her. Still no good.

There are perfectly reliable alternatives. That offer loads of benefits because they aren't tied to a fixed phone line. The issue is that BT aren't responsible for ensuring people have swapped.

 

[Jim]

Do the owners/members of the club have any idea what happened yet and if any of their data has been accessed?

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[SpeedyDux]

There are perfectly reliable alternatives. That offer loads of benefits because they aren't tied to a fixed phone line. The issue is that BT aren't responsible for ensuring people have swapped.

BT should have a statutory duty. "Reliable" is relative, not absolute. We are not going to agree. I'm out.

 

[Dorset Diver]

Do the owners/members of the club have any idea what happened yet and if any of their data has been accessed?

No info or communication yet and I very much doubt there will be. I'm equally sure they will do their best to sweep it under the carpet.

 

[Spriddler]

I'm equally sure they will do their best to sweep it under the carpet.

That'll take some doing as they've already had the rug pulled from under them.

 

[hja]

There is another update in small print at the top of the website home page. Just says forensic work continues and we will be told relevant info when available. On the CAMC forum, which is back again, someone reports being told by a member of staff that they have had to have a new phone system.

 

[Guigsy]

There is another update in small print at the top of the website home page. Just says forensic work continues and we will be told relevant info when available. On the CAMC forum, which is back again, someone reports being told by a member of staff that they have had to have a new phone system.

That implies massive loss of systems and data that they aren't going to recover. Probably well beyond the IT that runs their public facing web services.

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[BOOMEL]

How is IP more resilient than analogue? Progress going backwards as well as forwards. There hasn't been a referendum. Despite the campaign by the Mail to stop or delay the switchover rollout, it is forced on us all by an overweening management of a privatised and poorly regulated industry.

There is no 100% failsafe solution for emergency contact services such as Careline, even if the box comes with a backup 5G SIM card.

This thread is a prime example of what should not happen. In this case, a Club's IT system for site bookings. Offline for several days. Members having to phone site wardens to make bookings. Ad hoc paper records kept at site level. Concern over payments and data security (whether the concerns are unfounded is neither here nor there). Such a catastrophic IT failure shouldn't have happened. Where is the resilience?

Sod's law - something like that is inevitable, with the IP internet connection dropping out just when the vulnerable person has a fall, a common occurrence and the main raison d'etre for things such as Careline. In that scenario, old folks are going to be left lying on the floor for hours unable to call for help, perhaps until a carer arrives next morning. Some will suffer long drawn out painful avoidable deaths. That is inevitable.

In the bright sunny green uplands of this digital utopia the worst case scenarios (e.g. power outages) tend to be dismissed too readily as the price worth paying for convenience. Or cost saving.

Whilst I agree with you, it is an unfortunate way of life that the world marches on and there will be winners and losers. Maintaining two systems is too costly to BT / Openreach and their shareholders, so the progress towards VOIP is inevitable if fear. Equally in time we will all have to get used to the demise of ICE cars.

 

[Scotsblood]

Do the owners/members of the club have any idea what happened yet and if any of their data has been accessed?

No real update at present but you would hope that part of the process of informing the ICO about the breach dictates they must then inform any of us with details on the database just what items may have been compromised. Those of us affected in other circumstances know this may take a while!
The problem as always will be working out just what may have been interrogated by the intrusion.
I'm told by a friend who's son does this sort of forensics for HM Gov that it often takes a 'what can we find in the wild' approach as the intruders are increasingly able to not generate a 'footprint' of what they might have seen or copied.

 

[busbuddy]

I

Do the owners/members of the club have any idea what happened yet and if any of their data has been accessed?

I heard a rumour it was you instigating a hostile takeover because they wanted the forum

 

[robnchris]

Yes the CAMC webpage is all and running again.

 

[seasideBill]

Yes the CAMC webpage is all and running again.

‘Club Together’ is as useless as ever…. “The page cannot be displayed because an internal server error has occurred”.

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[Dorset Diver]

‘Club Together’ is as useless as ever…. “The page cannot be displayed because an internal server error has occurred”.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[Zoshee]

Just looked myself at the site running now. The login page has a .aspx extension which means its running Microsoft .Net Webforms. Haven't done anything with that for years, it's quite out of vogue these days.

 

[scotzsue]

CAMC App is still down at the moment though.

Thamk goodness for that, not fit for purpose. Cancelled a booking, which was for the end of December, on the 1st of november, fortunately took a screenshot. Was called on the date i was due to arrive toi ask where i was, no notification on their system. By this time i was no longer a member, after a lot of toing and froing of emails 'as a courtesy' they sent me a voucher for the amount of the deposit.
Had complained again sending the proof that it had been cancelled, they will look into it, no doubt they have lost all the info, fortunately I have kept all the correspondence
What a shambles.

 

[robnchris]

Not had problems opening any of the options, we had to change our password and then all good to go, all our bookings are there, club together opens ok.

 

[seasideBill]

club together opens ok.

Does for me now but it didn’t earlier and probably won’t next time I try given it’s been problematic on & off for longer than I care to remember. It’s day 1 following the ‘fix’ and already I’ve experienced the same old fault. Nil confidence in CAMC.

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