CAN'T AFFORD A TESLA

[Coolcats]

Reading that a Volvo EV takes 70k miles of use to recover the Co2 emitted during manufacture and if this is common across the board I'll help climate change by sticking to my diesel.

For now it will be common but that will change as manufacturing starts using alternate power, which brings me back to Hydrogen for the diggers movers that extract the raw materials. And who know probably Hydrogen powers Motorhomes.

 

[gus-lopez]

Electric cars need a decent heating system in the UK.

Yes you can't sleep in it leaving the engine running overnight with a steady 68ºc coming out as I used to in my smiley transit.

The secret is you set the car to pre-heat (cabin and batteries) while it's still plugged in. They you rely on heated seats and heated steering wheels, which require far less power.

So far more electric being used? I like constant hot air being emitted whilst travelling in the cold.if it gets too hot i open a window slightly .can't have anything other than warm feet.

 

[jongood]

Yes you can't sleep in it leaving the engine running overnight with a steady 68ºc coming out as I used to in my smiley transit.

So far more electric being used? I like constant hot air being emitted whilst travelling in the cold.if it gets too hot i open a window slightly .can't have anything other than warm feet.

Thats a really good point. I like a heated seat but wouldnt want to have to rely on it to keep my extremities warm. You can have a great coat on but your feet, nose, ears etc still get cold.

 

[63720]

Thousands of EVs probably plugged in last night with absolutely no wind so where is that energy coming from with only about 6% nuclear?

 

[jdk62]

I think I’ll start up a business selling balaclava’s, fingerless gloves, oversocks and willy warmers just for EV car owners…..

overall cost of £40 for the above much cheaper than paying for a heat pup or the extra elec to pre- heat the cab..

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[Richard n Ann]

Heat pump driven off a motor might be more efficient, all adds weight though.

Let's just limit our reproduction and we can all live lives of luxury

 

[Coolcats]

You just need heated Clothing and the people who suffer from cold feet here is the answer....(its electric)

 

[Silver-Fox]

Reading that a Volvo EV takes 70k miles of use to recover the Co2 emitted during manufacture and if this is common across the board I'll help climate change by sticking to my diesel.

Is that just the manufacture or does it include the energy used to produce the electric to charge it for 70k miles

 

[63720]

Is that just the manufacture or does it include the energy used to produce the electric to charge it for 70k miles

Interesting reading about EVs.

Volvo says electric car making emissions are 70% HIGHER than petrol

Volvo said the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint during 'use phase' and if clean energy was used things would improve.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Guigsy]

Heat pump driven off a motor might be more efficient, all adds weight though.

The Tesla Model Y has a heat pump. So it can heat (and cool) the cabin and batteries by scavenging heat from outside even in quite low temperatures using far less power than resistive electric heating. I expect other Tesla models will get the feature soon. And other manufacturer will also copy it.

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[Garratt]

The Tesla Model Y has a heat pump. So it can heat (and cool) the cabin and batteries by scavenging heat from outside even in quite low temperatures using far less power than resistive electric heating. I expect other Tesla models will get the feature soon. And other manufacturer will also copy it.

My Model 3 has a heat pump.

 

[Blue Knight]

So far more electric being used? I like constant hot air being emitted whilst travelling in the cold.if it gets too hot i open a window slightly .can't have anything other than warm feet.

This is a very good point.

On my EV forum at the moment there is countless numbers of people trying to work out how they can heat, ventilate and demist their cars without all of the various electrical components taking a massive toll on the vehicle range.

It's actually quite comical (or sad!) to read this since these guys are spending £50,000+ on a new EV and yet they have to worry about heating and the basics.

The Tesla seems to be advancing well in the technological and usability stakes but for most other manufacturers this is a new technology and therefore a big learning curve for them - of which some are not doing particularly well.

 

[Blue Knight]

Thousands of EVs probably plugged in last night with absolutely no wind so where is that energy coming from with only about 6% nuclear?

.....and that's a point which really pee's me off about the attitude of some EV owners; i.e some think they are doing the planet a favour when in fact they are causing more issues than most with the mineral extraction problems and the theory that their electric supply comes from a magic power source that doesn't pollute the planet.

 

[Guigsy]

.....and that's a point which really pee's me off about the attitude of some EV owners; i.e some think they are doing the planet a favour when in fact they are causing more issues than most with the mineral extraction problems and the theory that their electric supply comes from a magic power source that doesn't pollute the planet.

EV batteries do require lots of nasty minerals (although LiFePO4 batteries are considerably better). But at least that's only at the point of build. An increasing amount of energy they use from daily driving is coming from renewable resources.

Alternatively you can use an internal combustion engine that requires use of non-renewables every mile you drive for the life of the vehicle.

 

[Richard n Ann]

EV batteries do require lots of nasty minerals (although LiFePO4 batteries are considerably better). But at least that's only at the point of build. An increasing amount of energy they use from daily driving is coming from renewable resources.

Alternatively you can use an internal combustion engine that requires use of non-renewables every mile you drive for the life of the vehicle.

It's great how engines get rid of their own waste though. One day in the not too distant future there'll be millions of tonnes of lithium to deal with.

I've been on the fence for years thinking electric cars will be great one day, but there are so many disadvantages I can't ever see them being much use until we invent cold fusion or some similar miracle. We're spending billions changing over to far inferior vehicles that (arguably) aren't necessarily any cleaner! What folly

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[Blue Knight]

EV batteries do require lots of nasty minerals (although LiFePO4 batteries are considerably better). But at least that's only at the point of build. An increasing amount of energy they use from daily driving is coming from renewable resources.

Alternatively you can use an internal combustion engine that requires use of non-renewables every mile you drive for the life of the vehicle.

My wife and I are partly to blame for this too.

She swapped (with much influence from me) her MY19 Euro-6 BMW 5 Tourer diesel for a Hyundai EV.....and then rejected the Hyundai EV a few days later because of its huge array of problems, not withstanding the fact that it wouldn't select forward or reverse (which we found to be a rather big design problem for a car, lol).

The point I make here is that we had already scarred the earth significantly by having the BMW built in the first place and then we did the the stupid non-environmental thing of buying a new vehicle which then costs the planet even more heartache to build than the BMW.

In our example the best option for the planet was for us to keep the Euro-6 BMW........but no, we had to 'go green' and by doing so we actually did a whole load more damage to the planet than if we had just kept the diesel.

No matter how we all look at the 'Petrol/Diesel versus EV Subject' there is always one benefit or disadvantage that counters the other.

 

[63720]

Changing to an EV only helps the planet if your old car is crushed.

 

[Guigsy]

EVs are better than combustion engines. But the cold truth is that cars are not good for the environment, no matter how they are propelled.

 

[robnchris]

EV batteries do require lots of nasty minerals (although LiFePO4 batteries are considerably better). But at least that's only at the point of build. An increasing amount of energy they use from daily driving is coming from renewable resources.

Alternatively you can use an internal combustion engine that requires use of non-renewables every mile you drive for the life of the vehicle.

That's not really true to say it's only at the point of build is it.
It's also a big problem at the point of recycling the batteries and or scrapping the EV.

 

[Guigsy]

That's not really true to say it's only at the point of build is it.
It's also a big problem at the point of recycling the batteries and or scrapping the EV.

It's looking like EV batteries are going to be very reusable and recyclable.

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[robnchris]

EVs are better than combustion engines. But the cold truth is that cars are not good for the environment, no matter how they are propelled.

There you go again, (EVs are better than combustion engines.) on what basis is this a true statement, you are limited to shorter distance journeys, you have to wait for however long for the battery to recharge, you only charge it up to 80% capacity for two reasons, (a) to protect the life of the battery, (b) it takes far longer to charge to 100%.
People that don't have off road parking can't recharge at home, How many 100's of thousands of people fall into that category?
The initial cost is prohibitive to a lot of people and finally this isn't a free choice for people, it's being forced on us by the powers that be that a few short years ago told us Diesel engines were the way to go.
You say that it's looking like EV batteries are going to be very reusable and recyclable.
That's not what I am reading, quite the opposite in fact these batteries are very difficult to dispose of using some very non friendly methods to do so.

 

[Guigsy]

There you go again, (EVs are better than combustion engines.) on what basis is this a true statement, you are limited to shorter distance journeys, you have to wait for however long for the battery to recharge, you only charge it up to 80% capacity for two reasons, (a) to protect the life of the battery, (b) it takes far longer to charge to 100%.
People that don't have off road parking can't recharge at home, How many 100's of thousands of people fall into that category?
The initial cost is prohibitive to a lot of people and finally this isn't a free choice for people, it's being forced on us by the powers that be that a few short years ago told us Diesel engines were the way to go.
You say that it's looking like EV batteries are going to be very reusable and recyclable.
That's not what I am reading, quite the opposite in fact these batteries are very difficult to dispose of using some very non friendly methods to do so.

There are several studies that show that even relatively low use EVs are better for the environment over their lifetime than an ICE. Even a second hand one.

But better still... get rid of your car.

Recycled batteries have the potential to be quite valuable:

Using recycled cathodes makes better lithium batteries, study finds

The materials create a more porous structure for the ions to negotiate.

arstechnica.com

 

[63720]

There are several studies that show that even relatively low use EVs are better for the environment over their lifetime than an ICE. Even a second hand one.

But better still... get rid of your car.

Recycled batteries have the potential to be quite valuable:

Using recycled cathodes makes better lithium batteries, study finds

The materials create a more porous structure for the ions to negotiate.

arstechnica.com

I read in the papers than a 14reg Leaf had a range of only 50 miles and the owner was quoted c£19k to replace the batteries, agreed though with your second comment - we commute too much as a nation and motoring in general is far too cheap.

 

[Clipgate]

Volvo says electric car making emissions are 70% HIGHER than petrol

Volvo said the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint during 'use phase' and if clean energy was used things would improve.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

 

[jongood]

Changing to an EV only helps the planet if your old car is crushed.

Its not though is it because of the amount of energy and materials used to build it. We have 2 x13 year old ICE cars but do very low mileages - less than 5k between the pair of them, if 2 EVs' were built to replace them, given that the ld ones would also have to be disposed off in some way I dont think we would ever replace the energy expended in replacement.

I can though see the point for those commuting ( which we are not) and doing substantially higher mileages. Or for somebody intent on buying a new/newer car.

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[Guigsy]

Volvo says electric car making emissions are 70% HIGHER than petrol

Volvo said the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint during 'use phase' and if clean energy was used things would improve.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

So read past the clickbait headline. EVs have a higher foot print to make. But far lower in use. So over their lifetime, EVs are better for the environment.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Batteries are great for small things like phones, LEDs etc. Less so as the device gets bigger and more power hungry. How many times have we all said to people wanting to use an inverter for the microwave "USE GAS!"

It becomes more obvious when electric HGVs are considered, it's just a non starter.. "USE DIESEL!" we'd probably advise on another forum.

So back to electric cars, they are possible, but you need a hell of a lot of batteries and their range is limited, probably right on the limit size wise for batteries, and that's why they're expensive and inferior to ice cars.

 

[Guigsy]

Batteries are great for small things like phones, LEDs etc. Less so as the device gets bigger and more power hungry. How many times have we all said to people wanting to use an inverter for the microwave "USE GAS!"

It becomes more obvious when electric HGVs are considered, it's just a non starter.. "USE DIESEL!" we'd probably advise on another forum.

So back to electric cars, they are possible, but you need a hell of a lot of batteries and their range is limited, probably right on the limit size wise for batteries, and that's why they're expensive and inferior to ice cars.

It wasn't long ago that I was completely unconvinced that EVs would ever be practical. I could not understand how that amount of battery could feasibly be squeezed into a practical car. I test drove a Smart electric and it was a like a 40mph dodgem. But in just a few years we've gone from milk floats, to luxury cars with 200 mile range, to hatchbacks with 250 mile range that cost the same to lease as an ICE. And the big names have only just started to take an interest. The technology is still making large gains every year which have a compound effect.

I think we're still a long way from displacing diesel in heavier vehicles. Maybe it'll never happen and in the future they'll run on bio/synthetic/captured fuels in the future. Maybe hydrogen infrastructure will appear and make that viable (I doubt it). Or maybe batteries will keep chipping away at getting higher capacity, longer life, more power dense and cheaper and viable EVs will keep getting bigger until diesel is niche.

 

[Richard n Ann]

It wasn't long ago that I was completely unconvinced that EVs would ever be practical. I could not understand how that amount of battery could feasibly be squeezed into a practical car. I test drove a Smart electric and it was a like a 40mph dodgem. But in just a few years we've gone from milk floats, to luxury cars with 200 mile range, to hatchbacks with 250 mile range that cost the same to lease as an ICE. And the big names have only just started to take an interest. The technology is still making large gains every year which have a compound effect.

I think we're still a long way from displacing diesel in heavier vehicles. Maybe it'll never happen and in the future they'll run on bio/synthetic/captured fuels in the future. Maybe hydrogen infrastructure will appear and make that viable (I doubt it). Or maybe batteries will keep chipping away at getting higher capacity, longer life, more power dense and cheaper and viable EVs will keep getting bigger until diesel is niche.

I hope you're right, but the way I see it they've got round the problem of 'batteries aren't good enough' by installing thousands of them.

 

[Folkranger]

I think most EV batteries come from China.

Those days are numbered. There are Two giga factories being built in the North East and I'm sure these aren't the only ones.

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