Buy British, why not?

[jongood]

I think composite materials are OK, particularly carbon-fibre but they have to use different fixings.

At N&B, despite advertising Smove and iSmove at MIRO under 3.5t, the then senior salesman Jurgen Bath(since retired) told us to our face we do not sell a MH under 3.5t, because I think he was taking into account extras like awnings etc. and knew they are not viable at 3.5t. The question was asked by my other half who likes our N&B quality but is resisting taking her C1 licence.

Geoff

I think N &b have called the market wrong. People will soon realise that sub 3500kgs are not fit for purpose and that there is little point in taking a C1 when for the same money you can take a C. Sadly by that time their reputation will be diminished.

 

[Pausim]

It is a con when they sell a motorhome with a stated weight of under 3T and without anything other than normal factory extras it weighs over 3.3 Tonnes and therefore cannot be run on a 3.5T license.

I have bought both a new Hymer and a new Carthago. Both manufacturers very clearly stated the weight of all the options so I don’t consider it a con. It was up to me to leave out heavy items such as an awning if I wanted to keep it useable and under 3500kg. Customer’s choice. What is a normal factory extra?

 

[Folkranger]

That’s fine to disagree even the N&B from what I can tell has similar composite materials, it’s the modern world and never going back to solid wood, I don’t think it’s a sales con people want to drive a MoHo under 3.5T so there has to be a compromise

You're in danger of repeating yourself.

 

[Folkranger]

I think you will find a lot of composite material in any van including Hymers, "A composite material is a combination of two materials with different physical and chemical properties" so a fibreboard as a combination of fibre and resin/glue is a composite material and there are many other examples right through to Epoxy/Carbon fibre (not much of this in your average van though) or GRP (glass reinforced plastic).

Composite wasn't my word. Of course if you want to be pedantic about Combining two materials then the composite that I'm referring to is fibreboard and air.

 

[Folkranger]

if you must have a Hymer Buy yourself an old style S800, built like a brick outhouse.

Not quite an S800 but this was my first motorhome. Weighbridged at 2870kg when bought. An honest weight in that it was solidly built throughout and although plated at 4T could be run at 3.5T without compromise.

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[funflair]

Composite wasn't my word. Of course if you want to be pedantic about Combining two materials then the composite that I'm referring to is fibreboard and air.

Sorry I thought it was in your post, possibly spending half my working life in composites makes me a little pedantic.

 

[Folkranger]

I wonder if any manufacturers have thought about producing models for the over 3.5t market which are similar to the under 3.5t but more robust more robust in materials and workmanship. They could give them a different model no./name.

Geoff

In truth, II wonder how many vans from brands like Hymer which were built down to a weight are actually being run under 3.5T.

 

[Folkranger]

Sorry I thought it was in your post, possibly spending half my working life in composites makes me a little pedantic.

Sorry, not meaning to offend. I was quoting composites from someone else's contribution.

 

[Old Gibber]

I wonder if any manufacturers have thought about producing models for the over 3.5t market which are similar to the under 3.5t but more robust more robust in materials and workmanship. They could give them a different model no./name.

Geoff

Far better would be for the government to raise the weight limit for driving with a standard driving licence. They've done it with towing weights, why not motorhomes?

 

[Lenny HB]

In truth, II wonder how many vans from brands like Hymer which were built down to a weight are actually being run under 3.5T.

Our first Hymer a 2008 Tramp didn't have much payload but it was a special edition with loads of extras as standard, sat dish, TV, sound system etc. We could just about run at 3500 about 30kg over with full tanks.
Last one was an Exsis which only had a 580 kg payload so we uprated to 3850.
Current one is 4500 kg took the view if I couldn't keep my C1 it would be a good excuse to buy a new van.

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[funflair]

Sorry, not meaning to offend. I was quoting composites from someone else's contribution.

No problem, what people don’t realise is that wood is the original composite material, resin and fibre so when we talk about composite materials we need to be more specific.

 

[Folkranger]

No problem, what people don’t realise is that wood is the original composite material, resin and fibre so when we talk about composite materials we need to be more specific.

Just when I was warming to you. You could by your standard claim that anything is a composite material. Steel is a composite of iron and carbon. But here in the real world.................

 

[funflair]

Just when I was warming to you. You could by your standard claim that anything is a composite material. Steel is a composite of iron and carbon. But here in the real world.................

Yes I thought about that before I replied some things are alloys of course, I think in a composite the two or more elements remain and are isolated so the resin surrounds the fibres in GRP but does not mix as iron and carbon do in steel, the carbon fibres in a BMW i3 can be recycled as the resin can be burnt off and the fibres used again.

 

[Folkranger]

Yes I thought about that before I replied some things are alloys of course, I think in a composite the two or more elements remain and are isolated so the resin surrounds the fibres in GRP but does not mix as iron and carbon do in steel, the carbon fibres in a BMW i3 can be recycled as the resin can be burnt off and the fibres us

I think composite materials are OK, particularly carbon-fibre but they have to use different fixings.

At N&B, despite advertising Smove and iSmove at MIRO under 3.5t, the then senior salesman Jurgen Bath(since retired) told us to our face we do not sell a MH under 3.5t, because I think he was taking into account extras like awnings etc. and knew they are not viable at 3.5t. The question was asked by my other half who likes our N&B quality but is resisting taking her C1 licence.

Geoff

I like his honesty. It reflects on the dishonesty of the original manufacturer. Selling a £110k+ motorhome is not like selling a non slip doormat that isn't really non slip. Its taking what amounts to most peoples life savings and possibly putting them in a position of having to break the law or lose a lot of money by selling on.

 

[SSILVO]

Probably a good idea to look at owners feedback on Web sites/owners clubs before purchase rather than after..no matter what the van or car..
Then it's down to you can't be ripped off if your happy with the deal

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[Folkranger]

Yes I thought about that before I replied some things are alloys of course, I think in a composite the two or more elements remain and are isolated so the resin surrounds the fibres in GRP but does not mix as iron and carbon do in steel, the carbon fibres in a BMW i3 can be recycled as the resin can be burnt off and the fibres used again.

I still refer to the unacceptability of hollow board construction and 2mm single skin shelves. I believe in composite It allows improvement on traditional materials. No problem with that from me.

 

[Folkranger]

I have bought both a new Hymer and a new Carthago. Both manufacturers very clearly stated the weight of all the options so I don’t consider it a con. It was up to me to leave out heavy items such as an awning if I wanted to keep it useable and under 3500kg. Customer’s choice. What is a normal factory extra?

Walk around any dealership. If they quote weights at all they will be the manufacturers bottom weight despite being sold as standard with a uk pack and many other things that add weight. Step, passenger door, carpets entertainment system, oven, camera arial, tv point......... Before you correct me I'm guessing at these but there must be a significant weight add on at uk dealers.

 

[Coolcats]

Composite wasn't my word. Of course if you want to be pedantic about Combining two materials then the composite that I'm referring to is fibreboard and air.

Bone is a composite material

You may find this of interest ( I certainly did)

"A composite material is a combination of two materials with different physical and chemical properties. When they are combined they create a material which is specialised to do a certain job, for instance to become stronger, lighter or resistant to electricity. They can also improve strength and stiffness. The reason for their use over traditional materials is because they improve the properties of their base materials and are applicable in many situations"

 

[Lenny HB]

Walk around any dealership. If they quote weights at all they will be the manufacturers bottom weight despite being sold as standard with a uk pack and many other things that add weight. Step, passenger door, carpets entertainment system, oven, camera arial, tv point......... Before you correct me I'm guessing at these but there must be a significant weight add on at uk dealers.

My van (self import) is probably not as well speced as a lot of vans on UK forecourts but I still managed to add over 200 kg in extras to it.

 

[Pausim]

Walk around any dealership. If they quote weights at all they will be the manufacturers bottom weight despite being sold as standard with a uk pack and many other things that add weight. Step, passenger door, carpets entertainment system, oven, camera arial, tv point......... Before you correct me I'm guessing at these but there must be a significant weight add on at uk dealers.

I don’t doubt that some sales people will encourage potential customers to look at all the goodies and make no mention of the weight penalty they carry. I would also be happy to see an obligation on dealers to advertise the true payload i.e. weigh all the motorhomes on their forecourts and display what is left for payload. However until then the buying public can help themselves by doing some proper homework before parting with their life savings. Take advice if you need it, I believe Jim is thinking of setting up a consultancy to advise on this.

Firstly recognise the role of the sales person, he or she is primarily motivated by selling. Secondly ask for basic information such as a copy of the vehicle’s Certificate of Conformity and if in doubt ask them to take the vehicle to a weigh bridge.

If ordering a new motorhome demand accurate information about the weight of factory fitted extras and if this is not available move on. My own experience is far more positive. The salesman first asked what I wanted to achieve, I said I wanted a motorhome that could be driven on a B licence in case I had difficulty retaining my C1 in the future. We sat down with the price list detailing the costs and weight of factory extras and carefully went through everything to arrive at acceptable figures.

I ended up with a 7m A Class which we used legally at a revenue weight of 3500kg for nearly 2 years. We had to take care with loading and paid more than one visit to a weigh bridge to keep legal. It took care but was possible. After I renewed my C1 we decided to up the revenue weight to 3850kg so that we could be a little more relaxed about loading and added a second refillable gas bottle. If we need to I am confident that I can return it to 3500kg.

One of the heavy options we chose was a tow bar for our toad. Some of our heavier luggage goes into the toad because without driver and passenger it has a reasonable weight capacity. We could also tow a luggage trailer if we were going where toads are no longer welcome. It is one of the strange quirks of our law that you can exceed the revenue weight as long as the excess is in the trailer not onboard the towing vehicle.

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[funflair]

The price list for our van has weights of all optional equipment as well as prices, the order order confirmation had weights as well, thats 873kg from the options list

And when we weighed it at home it was pretty spot on

 

[The Wino]

I don’t doubt that some sales people will encourage potential customers to look at all the goodies and make no mention of the weight penalty they carry. I would also be happy to see an obligation on dealers to advertise the true payload i.e. weigh all the motorhomes on their forecourts and display what is left for payload. However until then the buying public can help themselves by doing some proper homework before parting with their life savings. Take advice if you need it, I believe Jim is thinking of setting up a consultancy to advise on this.

Firstly recognise the role of the sales person, he or she is primarily motivated by selling. Secondly ask for basic information such as a copy of the vehicle’s Certificate of Conformity and if in doubt ask them to take the vehicle to a weigh bridge.

If ordering a new motorhome demand accurate information about the weight of factory fitted extras and if this is not available move on. My own experience is far more positive. The salesman first asked what I wanted to achieve, I said I wanted a motorhome that could be driven on a B licence in case I had difficulty retaining my C1 in the future. We sat down with the price list detailing the costs and weight of factory extras and carefully went through everything to arrive at acceptable figures.

I ended up with a 7m A Class which we used legally at a revenue weight of 3500kg for nearly 2 years. We had to take care with loading and paid more than one visit to a weigh bridge to keep legal. It took care but was possible. After I renewed my C1 we decided to up the revenue weight to 3850kg so that we could be a little more relaxed about loading and added a second refillable gas bottle. If we need to I am confident that I can return it to 3500kg.

One of the heavy options we chose was a tow bar for our toad. Some of our heavier luggage goes into the toad because without driver and passenger it has a reasonable weight capacity. We could also tow a luggage trailer if we were going where toads are no longer welcome. It is one of the strange quirks of our law that you can exceed the revenue weight as long as the excess is in the trailer not onboard the towing vehicle.

I don't think its a quirk that you can take more weight if you tow some of it. That's a bit like saying its a quirk that you can take more weight if you spread it across two axles rather than load it mostly on one

 

[jongood]

I don't think its a quirk that you can take more weight if you tow some of it. That's a bit like saying its a quirk that you can take more weight if you spread it across two axles rather than load it mostly on one

it is because a 70 year old can tow 3500kgs behind a land rover etc with no medical requirements and the trailer doesn't even need an inspection.

 

[The Wino]

it is because a 70 year old can tow 3500kgs behind a land rover etc with no medical requirements and the trailer doesn't even need an inspection.

Good argument for introducing a medical for towing although haven't they just made it easier to tow by removing the test requirement

 

[jongood]

Good argument for introducing a medical for towing although haven't they just made it easier to tow by removing the test requirement

I believe so - in the name of keeping us safe ????

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[The Wino]

I believe so - in the name of keeping us safe ????

I think more in the interests of keeping in power longer. I'm not sure how that works in terms of keeping us safe.

 

[jongood]

I think more in the interests of keeping in power longer. I'm not sure how that works in terms of keeping us safe.

Its to clear some of the backlog of tests caused by the shutdown s

 

[The Wino]

Its to clear some of the backlog of tests caused by the shutdown s

I think that's true. Although there are other causes of driver shortages!

 

[jongood]

I think that's true. Although there are other causes of driver shortages!

This is why they've made it legal for a17 year old to pull a 3500kgs trailer without either being tested.

In the same way they can't drive a 4t mh but they can use a 3.5t mh with any 2 tonne trailer. And so can a 70 year old who can't get through the medical.

 

[nicholsong]

I like his honesty. It reflects on the dishonesty of the original manufacturer. Selling a £110k+ motorhome is not like selling a non slip doormat that isn't really non slip. Its taking what amounts to most peoples life savings and possibly putting them in a position of having to break the law or lose a lot of money by selling on.

He was the Senior salesman at N&B, the manufacturers, and said it in their showroom at the factory.

But then the likes of N&B, Morelo, Phoenix are not interested in the ,3.5t market so can build quality without worrying about weight, except for keeping under the max weight of the chassis they build on, but many of their chassis are 7,5t.

Geoff

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