A TOWED CARS PRODUCT RECALL

[pappajohn]

An inertia handbrake mechanically locks the brakes and will stay that way until over-ridden

Not if the frame comes away from the car.
The hitch assembly handbrake put on the brakes via a Bowden cable by pulling on the hitch assembly handbrake.
If the frame departs the car then the brakes will be applied momentarily then the Bowden cable will snap and release the brakes meanwhile the A frame and it's handbrake are still attached to the towbar.

 

[TonyEmm]

Worth noting the OP is headed from Facebook Tony Maris , the anti A Frame Fun member with a different ID on Facebook and this link probably refers to the thread headed A Frame Disaster Oct 30th ( closed to replies ) where the a frame installation was probably old and not maintained and had detached due to excessive rust.

Persistent eh !

Here we go again! We’ve been down this road before! You had no trouble finding ME on FB, and if you note, both my profiles (here and there) have much the same info.
You PERSIST in claiming I’m anti a-frame, if you’ve bothered to read my posts, then clearly nothing has sunk in, I’m NOT anti a-frame , but I do want them to be safe and legal.
The car involved in the most recent incident was neither!

BTW, I STILL haven’t managed to locate YOUR profile on FB, and you neglected to point to it last time you accused me of hiding.

you are making yourself look VERY silly.

 

[TonyEmm]

Simply because there is no 'overseeing' body for A frame use.
Exactly the same could happen to a regular trailer should the A frame drawbar separate from the trailer chassis/body.
The safety brake is designed for the A frame de-hitching.....not for the A frame breaking away and all A frames have this unless electric brakes are fitted.

You’re correct. Trailer legislation is not suitable for a-frames but, the DfT in their wisdom have said that is what they have to conform to.
the BIG difference between a trailer and a TOAD is that trailer drawbars are an integral part of the structure and design. They are not subject to falling off.
EU regs and UNECE regs do NOT include ‘adapted vehicles’ in their definition of a trailer!

 

[TonyEmm]

Not if the frame comes away from the car.
The hitch assembly handbrake put on the brakes via a Bowden cable by pulling on the hitch assembly handbrake.
If the frame departs the car then the brakes will be applied momentarily then the Bowden cable will snap and release the brakes meanwhile the A frame and it's handbrake are still attached to the towbar.

Exactly right, which is why i’ve said that trailer legislation is not suitable For TOADS!

 

[TonyEmm]

I happened to see this shared on another facebook group yesterday, clicking his profile showed :
" Former proprietor at Towbars & Trailers Chesterfield."
Genuine consern or some axe to grind...
My only issue with this is the way its being passed about on facebook as a genuine recall, where as i see thats its just been a request so far.

At least you checked my profile!

Now read my history and decide if I have an axe to grind or if I’m genuinely concerned about towing safety…

My Life in the Towing & Trailer Industry.

My Towing History… I first became a part of the ‘Towing Industry’ in 1975 when I was the PA to the MD of group of companies in the Leisure Trade. We did wholesale and retail of camping and caravanning equipment and caravans themselves. Additionally, one of the companies was, at that time...

spinner28.wixsite.com

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[Barclaybasher]

Is all this because ONE A frame failed after 10 years?

How many others?................ numbers please

 

[TonyEmm]

Hang on you lot! Regardless of who has requested this recall, it appears to be for a very good reason - namely to ensure that the breakaway cable us fitted to all installations thus a safety issue to prevent what happened to the car recently which could have killed someone!!!

There are likely more vehicles out there with this issue which owners are unaware of so if it makes just one check who has a similar set up to the recent car owner and prevents a similar occurrence it is worth this being publicised.

Instead of slagging off another funster, which being a personal sleight could easily get you banned not to mention how distasteful it is, why not put your own bias aside and see the bigger picture.

At last! A voice of reason!
It’s plain though that some FUNSTERS? have an issue because it was ‘I‘ that have asked the DVSA to instigate a recall. As you say, it’s irrelevant who asked them, it’s the content that’s important!

The fact is the company have made no statement about how many vehicles are affected or over what period of time. If the DVSA VSB follow this through, I suspect that will be the first question they ask!

 

[TonyEmm]

This is a repeat of the A Frame Disaster thread (Oct 30th this year ) with Tony Maris / Tony Emm attempting to prove just how dangerous this system is but so far just one example has been produced , now for the second time of a poor installation which has failed over time due to rust etc.

If there are more examples of poor installations or accidents by all means warn us but if there is not a problem why attempt to create one .

This is not the only failure as you well know, unless you just don’t read my posts! I’ve already posted about failed eye bolts, both stripped and sheared, and I’ve posted about failed car bodywork and front crash protection beams.
Fortunately, none I’m aware of were as catastrophic as this total failure.
it is NOT a new phenomenon.

The rust you refer to BTW, was as a result of the conversion. Poor welding and lack of anti-corrosion protection accelerated it. There was no significant rust anywhere else on the vehicle.

 

[TonyEmm]

I'm no lawyer but it must be getting close to libel, to defame a company, imitating the VOSA suggesting a recall has been instructed.....

I don't have a A frame but it seems bit unfair....

Let due process take place.

Libel is very specific. I’m not accusing any company of anything. I have reported an actual incident that occurred with one specific installation from one specific company. It is a fact that it happened.

As their first response to the owner was through a solicitor rather than directly, I think says a lot.

Incidentally, they HAVE admitted this vehicle lacked a breakaway system. What they haven’t admitted to is how many more may be involved.

I don’t believe it unfair as you say, not to warn other possible victims, or to have folk believing that all other a-frame suppliers are failing in the same way.

 

[TonyEmm]

Then all A frames are dangerous.
None have a breakaway system in the event of A frame failure causing it to depart from the toad/trailer and I can't see any possible way to do it.
They all have a system if the A frame detaches at the towball.

That’s not strictly true.
Inertia systems have an issue that they would only protect against a failure of the towball/coupling, but electronic braked systems go directly to the car and should protect against even a total failure such as this one.
It does need the installer to have provided the facility in the first place though!

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[TonyEmm]

My only issue with this is that it is suggesting that a recall has been made by the VSD and DVSA, and as far as I can see that is misleading and untrue.
It is right to bring such issues to users attention, however it appears the core purpose of the statement is to infer government agency support that is not there.
That then makes this disengenous.

Read the first sentence!

QUOTE: “I have, this week, formally called upon Trading Standards and the Vehicle Safety Branch (VSB) of the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) to implement a PRODUCT RECALL on specific a-frame installations.”

I’m making no inferences at all and it is certainly not disingenuous!
whether they act is entirely up to them but they needed to be made aware….

 

[TonyEmm]

Not so.
With an in car independent braking system , eg Brake Buddy, RVi brake etc , powered by the car in the very unlikely event of the car separating from the a frame the breakaway cable attached to the rear of the motorhome and the front of the car the system would automatically bring the car to a stop.

That’s what SHOULD happen!
All have a common failing though in that they rely on voltage in the car’s battery to keep the car parked up.
for info, one of the systems you’ve mentioned actually RELEASES the brakes after 30secs continuous use!

 

[2bob]

this happens as well on the cable to the brake peddle --- mind you it was 10 years old normanly i check but never this time as never used it last year this was this year

 

[TonyEmm]

We used the named supplier, and my only criticism of them was the inaccurate info they provided about car suitability and A-Framing in Europe. Unfortunately this was an integral part of their sales technique.

1. Just don't even think of converting an auto car with a push button ignition. No matter what the fitter says in his sales pitch, just don't do it.
2. A frames are not legal in many countries in Europe. Ignore whatever they say. A Frames are NOT legal in many countries in Europe.

The happy news about them is that they have excellent technical ability and their product worked perfectly (when used correctly). So fine for UK use (we also used it in Ireland), on a manual car, with a key ignition.

You’re correct about their sales technique and literature.

It does potential purchasers no favours whatsoever.

 

[Barclaybasher]

TonyEmm

Is all this because ONE A frame failed after 10 years?

How many others?................ numbers please

Had to repeat the question.............. can you give an answer?

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[eddie]

The point of the post, if you read it, is that there are more out there. It’s an unknown number as the company have not commented. Also, I’ve no idea over what period of time. There is no way of knowing if all are 10 years old or not.
The whole point of the post is that is very easy to check! You only need to look at the front grill, no dismantling required!!

But you know of ONE!

 

[TonyEmm]

I have had two cars fitted with a frame by http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.com/ the first in 2010 and both times it has had a breakaway brake fitted, and I have ad reminders to have my system serviced which I have adhered to, I can only say for myself that the company have always treated me with respect and professionalism,and nothing is too much trouble if you have a problem
I personally think it is out of order for someone to make posts on FB or others that are presented to appear as official documents

And who has done that?

 

[TonyEmm]

His latest is to recommend a certain A frame manufacturer because " They are the only ones who have their crash beams tested"
Do they really !!? To what standard and to what aim?
A Frames are unregulated Tony thats your gripe

You’re right that a-frames are largely unregulated but one company is trying to address that issue and do their own in-house testing.

Do you seriously have a problem with that? I think it makes a refreshing change from the approach of many others who claim you can ‘register your toad as a trailer‘, claim EC type approval and CE conformity when they don’t/haven’t, and issue reams of paper in various languages to try and con the enforcement agencies in other countries.
it’s dubious practice at best and does the industry and the buying public no favours whatsoever.

 

[TonyEmm]

But you know of ONE!

That’s one more than the company will admit to voluntarily! And you’ve missed the point of other failures, fortunately less catastrophic.

Sticking your head in the sand does not make the issue go away, there is a sizeable market in second hand TOADS, buyer’s need to know what to look out for.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Third time of asking....................

TonyEmm

Is all this because ONE A frame failed after 10 years?

How many others?................ numbers please

Had to repeat the question.............. can you give an answer?

DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER?

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[TonyEmm]

Is all this because ONE A frame failed after 10 years?

How many others?................ numbers please

AGAIN, you have not read the other posts! Failures are not uncommon but fortunately they are rarely catastrophic.

 

[TonyEmm]

Third time of asking....................

TonyEmm

Is all this because ONE A frame failed after 10 years?

How many others?................ numbers please

Had to repeat the question.............. can you give an answer?

DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER?

There is no need to shout! We’ve discussed this before and you know as well as I do that statistics are not collected, unless there have been fatalities.
.gov themselves admit their stats are unreliable, with the exception of fatalities which are recorded.

 

[Minxy]

TonyEmm

Is all this because ONE A frame failed after 10 years?

How many others?................ numbers please

Had to repeat the question.............. can you give an answer?

What makes you think that anyone knows? If the fitters of systems that have failed don't report it how to you supposed 'Joe Public' can find out?

But you know of ONE!

From what's been said only one 'catastrophic' failure ... I suppose we should be grateful that there haven't been more like this ... that we know of!

Maybe, just maybe, making this accident 'public' will ensure that others check their systems and prevent others occurring, also it may encourage others who have had this happen to them to report it too which would no doubt keep you both (and anyone else who just want to dismiss this important issue), happy so that you then know it's not just a fluke ... it's a funny way to be happy though!

What I am really surprised at is that people who should be able to see the bigger picture seem to have myopia when it comes Tony - if you cannot rise above that bias it says a lot more about you than it does him.

I really, REALLY do not get your hostility to the threads/posts about this issue ... if I had found out about it and been the first to report it on this forum I doubt very much if I would have got the flack that Tony has.

There are times when I am ashamed to be a member of this forum ...

 

[Jamesh]

You’re right that a-frames are largely unregulated but one company is trying to address that issue and do their own in-house testing.

Do you seriously have a problem with that? I think it makes a refreshing change from the approach of many others who claim you can ‘register your toad as a trailer‘, claim EC type approval and CE conformity when they don’t/haven’t, and issue reams of paper in various languages to try and con the enforcement agencies in other countries.
it’s dubious practice at best and does the industry and the buying public no favours whatsoever.

Are you working for this company by any chance....?!

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Not if the frame comes away from the car.
The hitch assembly handbrake put on the brakes via a Bowden cable by pulling on the hitch assembly handbrake.
If the frame departs the car then the brakes will be applied momentarily then the Bowden cable will snap and release the brakes meanwhile the A frame and it's handbrake are still attached to the towbar.

I think that the point with electronic systems is that the brakes are immediately applied as soon as that cable is unplugged. Nothing to do with the A frame itself. If you tore the whole front end off, then the brakes will still be applied as it would unplug the system and break the circuit.

Manual systems are as you described, which is why I would never have one

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[Barclaybasher]

What makes you think that anyone knows? If the fitters of systems that have failed don't report it how to you supposed 'Joe Public' can find out?


From what's been said only one 'catastrophic' failure ... I suppose we should be grateful that there haven't been more like this ... that we know of!

'Catastrophic' ?.............. One accident, 10 year old A frame, nobody injured?

....................Not even close!

............Much ado about nothing

..............One man's crusade...........

 

[eddie]

It must be so frustrating to have all of the answers, know everyone is wrong, know that the Government Web site is wrong yet despite knowing all of this the damn things keep working!

 

[eddie]

What makes you think that anyone knows? If the fitters of systems that have failed don't report it how to you supposed 'Joe Public' can find out?


From what's been said only one 'catastrophic' failure ... I suppose we should be grateful that there haven't been more like this ... that we know of!

Maybe, just maybe, making this accident 'public' will ensure that others check their systems and prevent others occurring, also it may encourage others who have had this happen to them to report it too which would no doubt keep you both (and anyone else who just want to dismiss this important issue), happy so that you then know it's not just a fluke ... it's a funny way to be happy though!

What I am really surprised at is that people who should be able to see the bigger picture seem to have myopia when it comes Tony - if you cannot rise above that bias it says a lot more about you than it does him.

I really, REALLY do not get your hostility to the threads/posts about this issue ... if I had found out about it and been the first to report it on this forum I doubt very much if I would have got the flack that Tony has.

There are times when I am ashamed to be a member of this forum ...

 

[eddie]

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[eddie]

I picked my A Framed car which is a Dihatsu Terios as Dihatsu have a section about how to tow the Terios on a A Frame behind a motorhome in the owners hand book as it's a massive market in the States

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