A Frame Disaster

[tonyidle]

I'm surprised these systems pass the type approval regs, a tow bar fitting certainly has to...

​

Useful to note that the regulation doesn't apply to vehicles over 3500Kg. I'm not sure where it leaves motorhomes up to 3500Kg with a rear extension where the number of towbars sold for any individual make is likely to be very low in number & thus impossible to manufacture economically to meet the regs.

​

Towbar EC Type Approval​

EC 94/20 type approval regulations were introduced in the United Kingdom on 1st August 1998 as a part of the wider European Whole Vehicle Type Approval. In a nutshell, the regulations mean that for passenger cars registered on or after this date, if fitted with a towbar, the towbar must be designed and manufactured to EC94/20 standards.
An EC Approved towbar will carry a plate or other durable label bearing the EC approval number plus other information including the S-Value (maximum tested noseweight) and the D-Value (the test load as calculated by EC94/20 requirements - note the D-Value is not the same as the towing capacity). The main requirements of an EC Approved towing bracket are that it is fitted to all of the towbar mounting points specified by the vehicle manufacturer, that it has undergone a rigorous testing procedure overseen by the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA), and that production towbars are subject to Conformity of Production (CoP) to ensure that production towbars are manufactured to the same standards as required by the initial test towbar.
If your car* is registered on or after 1st August 1998 and you fit a towbar, it MUST by law be approved to EC94/20 and installed correctly according to the manufacturers' instructions. It is an offence under the vehicle Construction & Use Regulations to fit, use or permit to be used, a non-approved towbar on the vehicle
* The regulations apply to Passenger carrying vehicles up to 3500kg Gross Vehicle Weight. Light commercial vehicles are not covered by this requirement, so for instance a Ford Transit van is not required to have a Type Approved towbar even if registered after August 1998.

 

[Geo]

Scaremongering?
Its terrifying
I have indisputable evidence that eventually anyone who has A Framed will die.
I didn't dig too deep into the stats as it was looking like like just owning a MoHo was equally as risky.
Debate if you wish.

 

[EzeeRider]

So reading through all the cr@p and bluster on this thread the useful info seems to be:

• If the A-frame comes away from the car a breakaway cable won't work as, although it may initially put the car's brakes on, once it actually breaks away from the towing vehicle the car's brakes will no longer be applied so it will freewheel, therefore the only 'safe' set-up is to NOT just rely on a cable to apply the brakes but have a proper electronic method that will trigger the car to apply the brakes and keep them on and work whether or not the car being towed is still attached to the MH or A-frame.
  
  
• Ensure that the installation of the A-frame attachment points on the car are done in such a way that they are fixed to a strong part of it, or have a 'beam' put on and sufficiently secured to the car's strong structure, so that the A-frame cannot break/pull off.
  
  
• Ensure that you, or your garage, check the attachment points on the car for corrosion etc EVERY YEAR to ensure they are still safe to use.

I agree with your last two points but not the first. Whether the breakaway cable applies the brakes in the event of the frame becoming partially or fully detached from the car depends on the type of installation. I think it is true for the over run system but not for the electronic braking systems which usually relies on a switch triggering an actuator which causes the brakes to be applied and stay on until they can be released.
ezee

 

[TonyEmm]

You continue with your scaremongering and promoting something anti to many Fun members, really on a roll eh. Just how many cases of runaways can you show us ?

How many cases is too many? Just one in my opinion, especially when it can be demonstrated that it was the original installation that was at fault.

The common cry from naysayers is where are the statistics! Unfortunately, no one is tasked with collecting statistics, not just for a-frame or towing accidents , but accidents in RTA’s in general.

The government’s own website admits that any statistics are casualty based.
They state that their stats can relied upon where there were fatalities, but readily admit that for anything less, the combined information from multitudes of sources (including NHS reports) points to the fact that official accident stats are hugely underestimated.

it’s more likely than not that regardless of how much damage is done, if there was no casualty, the ‘runaway’ will go unreported.

 

[TonyEmm]

So reading through all the cr@p and bluster on this thread the useful info seems to be:

• If the A-frame comes away from the car a breakaway cable won't work as, although it may initially put the car's brakes on, once it actually breaks away from the towing vehicle the car's brakes will no longer be applied so it will freewheel, therefore the only 'safe' set-up is to NOT just rely on a cable to apply the brakes but have a proper electronic method that will trigger the car to apply the brakes and keep them on and work whether or not the car being towed is still attached to the MH or A-frame.
  
  
• Ensure that the installation of the A-frame attachment points on the car are done in such a way that they are fixed to a strong part of it, or have a 'beam' put on and sufficiently secured to the car's strong structure, so that the A-frame cannot break/pull off.
  
  
• Ensure that you, or your garage, check the attachment points on the car for corrosion etc EVERY YEAR to ensure they are still safe to use.

On an inertia braked system, you are correct that if the a-frame detaches from the car, the breakaway cable will not deploy so brakes are not applied . An inertia system is extremely effective though (subject to correct usage) if the coupling separates from the towball! It will snatch the handbrake on and that has an energy store fitted which keeps it fully on, for ever and a day.
on an electronic activated system though, the breakaway cable should be attached to a ‘grenade’ type pin mounted at the front of the vehicle. Any failure of any kind, including the a-frame dropping off the car, WILL activate the car’s brakes (provided it was correctly installed). It WILL park the car up and hold it there.

There is a BUT!!

The electronic activated systems do not have a mechanical handbrake system in operation, they rely on the voltage in the car’s battery to maintain the status quo. One leading system on the market has a ‘time-out’ function built in and after 30 secs will release the brakes. On any sort of slope, the car has gone walkabout, possibly before you’ve even got to it!

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[Minxy]

I agree with your last two points but not the first. Whether the breakaway cable applies the brakes in the event of the frame becoming partially or fully detached from the car depends on the type of installation. I think it is true for the over run system but not for the electronic braking systems which usually relies on a switch triggering an actuator which causes the brakes to be applied and stay on until they can be released.
ezee

I did make reference to an 'electronic' system in my first point, please re-read it.

 

[TonyEmm]

I'm surprised these systems pass the type approval regs, a tow bar fitting certainly has to...

They don’t!
There are no type approval standards in place for a-frames. The DfT don’t consider consider them worthy…from .gov advice page…

Type approval of an A-frame​

Type approval of most new trailers became compulsory on 29 October 2012. However, the A-frame itself is neither a vehicle nor a trailer, and is therefore outside the scope of type approval.

 

[eddie]

Perhaps its towing that is dangerous?

 

[Larrynwin]

Why is it scaremongering? I wouldn't do A-framing but it doesn't mean I would prevent someone from doing it if they wanted to.

If there was a serious basis for his scaremongering eg accidents , injuries , deaths then no problem with me but Mr Emms does not even quote a problem he has in fact probably has never used one in which case anything he states is probably unfounded and unhelpful to the many motorhomers that safely and not illegally enjoy an extension of the Fun of motorhoming.

 

[Larrynwin]

Perhaps its towing that is dangerous?

What has this post got to do with towing a car with an a frame ?

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[TonyEmm]

If there was a serious basis for his scaremongering eg accidents , injuries , deaths then no problem with me but Mr Emms does not even quote a problem he has had in fact he probably has never used one in which case anything he states is probably unfounded and unhelpful to the many motorhomers that safely and not illegally enjoy an extension of the Fun of motorhoming.

I guess you’re referring to me?

Read my history. There is almost nothing regarding towing related incidents that I haven’t seen… One thing it doesn’t say there is that I was invited to witness and advise on road checks by VOSA and Nottinghamshire Police.

https://spinner28.wixsite.com/tonys-towing-trivia/post/my-life-in-the-towing-trailer-industry

It sounds to me like you are picking up Realist ‘s baton and trying to run with it. You’ve picked on the wrong guy!

 

[Barclaybasher]

TonyEmm

If you look at where the A frame broke away from the crossmember there is very little 'fresh' metal - most is rusted.

To blame the installer 10 years later is in my opinion not just unreasonable but idiotic.

The installation has clearly never been inspected or checked.

If anything this sort of posting will alert owners to get theirs checked.

As for statistics Insurance Companies will have data on all claims.

 

[Minxy]

If there was a serious basis for his scaremongering eg accidents , injuries , deaths then no problem with me but Mr Emms does not even quote a problem he has had in fact he probably has never used one in which case anything he states is probably unfounded and unhelpful to the many motorhomers that safely and not illegally enjoy an extension of the Fun of motorhoming.

I think the A-frame less car hitting the lamp post is an accident so that IS a serious basis, not for scaremongering, but bringing to people's attention the issue, which possibly rare, doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, nor that it has the potential to happen if there is a 'fault' with the installation, either through it being incorrectly done, not maintained, checked etc.

There are a lot who do A-frame vehicles and they IMV need to know to check their installation regularly as I suspect many do not and instead assume their garage (either at service or MOT time) will do so who won't as it's not part of what they do unless requested, or the owner doesn't bother at all as it never crosses their mind, just as those who have a towbar fitted, other than checking lights on what they are towing, won't give any thought to how well the tow bar is fitted, whether it has rust/corrosion at the attachment points, whether it needs maintenance etc.

If reading this thread prevents ONE instance of an A-framed car detaching, or becoming unsafe, because an owner decides to check it, it is a good thing, there's nothing wrong with that at all. As for A-framing itself, that is up to each person to decide if they want to do it, personally I wouldn't but that doesn't mean I would stop others from doing so by saying it is illegal as it isn't that clear cut, however I would advise them to ensure it is safe to use (ie maintenance etc wise).

You appear to have an 'issue' with Tony rather than the A-frame comments.

 

[Minxy]

TonyEmm

If you look at where the A frame broke away from the crossmember there is very little 'fresh' metal - most is rusted.

To blame the installer 10 years later is in my opinion not just unreasonable but idiotic.

The installation has clearly never been inspected or checked.

If anything this sort of posting will alert owners to get theirs checked.

As for statistics Insurance Companies will have data on all claims.

I don't think it's that clear cut, the installation was done incorrectly from the start by the look of it and would, at some point, fail. The car hadn't done a lot of mileage (assuming it recorded it when towed) so if it had been A-framed more extensively, as many do, it could have failed sooner. Yes there is rust etc but that doesn't negate the fact that the mountings should have been done properly in the first place, if they had been maybe there wouldn't have been anywhere for rust to start forming?

Does everyone who has a tow bar on their vehicle check it is still okay after 11 years? I doubt many do as it's pretty much a 'fit and forget' addition.

 

[eddie]

What has this post got to do with towing a car with an a frame ?

Sorry didn't realise that you moderated the Forum

However, to answer your question, about as much as a high percentage of the stuff in the thread.

The argument has slipped to damage that "may" be caused once a car breaks free from the towing vehicle, suggesting A frames were dangerous because of this.

I was merely pointing out my opinion that anything towed is a potential hazard, which is what I mistakenly thought a forum was for, discussing opinions, which is better than a boring diatribe of cut and pasting from people trying to prove an unanswerable argument one way of the other

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[olley]

The problem with A frames is that any Tom dick or Harry can make and fit one, with no testing by a competent person.
This shouldn't be allowed, so I suggest that Minxy Girl should take on that roll, all fun members A frames should be subject to her approval, failure means it's out with the gas axe.

 

[Larrynwin]

I guess you’re referring to me?

Read my history. There is almost nothing regarding towing related incidents that I haven’t seen… One thing it doesn’t say there is that I was invited to witness and advise on road checks by VOSA and Nottinghamshire Police.

https://spinner28.wixsite.com/tonys-towing-trivia/post/my-life-in-the-towing-trailer-industry

It sounds to me like you are picking up Realist ‘s baton and trying to run with it. You’ve picked on the wrong guy!

I fight my own corner which you should be well aware of from the times when I have responded to your previous baseless criticism of towing with a frames on this forum and it appears that you are the one capitalising on the OP and what is evidently either a bad installation poor maintenance or both.
Having towed different cars with different systems on different outfits from RVs to my present eurovan find them an extremely safe method of towing with the car sitting on its own four wheels unlike on a trailer with a much higher centre of gravity and likely on just two wheels and I would be interested to learn of your a frame towing experiences.

 

[Larrynwin]

Sorry didn't realise that you moderated the Forum

However, to answer your question, about as much as a high percentage of the stuff in the thread.

The argument has slipped to damage that "may" be caused once a car breaks free from the towing vehicle, suggesting A frames were dangerous because of this.

I was merely pointing out my opinion that anything towed is a potential hazard, which is what I mistakenly thought a forum was for, discussing opinions, which is better than a boring diatribe of cut and pasting from people trying to prove an unanswerable argument one way of the other

I agree .

 

[Minxy]

I fight my own corner which you should be well aware of from the times when I have responded to your previous baseless criticism of towing with a frames on this forum and it appears that you are the one capitalising on the OP and what is evidently either a bad installation poor maintenance or both.
Having towed different cars with different systems on different outfits from RVs to my present eurovan find them an extremely safe method of towing with the car sitting on its own four wheels unlike on a trailer with a much higher centre of gravity and likely on just two wheels and I would be interested to learn of your a frame towing experiences.

Please tell me why you aren't asking this of others who have commented but don't A-frame ... like me perhaps? Just because people don't actually A-frame doesn't mean they can't understand the ins and outs of it.

 

[TonyEmm]

I think the A-frame less car hitting the lamp post is an accident so that IS a serious basis, not for scaremongering, but bringing to people's attention the issue, which possibly rare, doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, nor that it has the potential to happen if there is a 'fault' with the installation, either through it being incorrectly done, not maintained, checked etc.

There are a lot who do A-frame vehicles and they IMV need to know to check their installation regularly as I suspect many do not and instead assume their garage (either at service or MOT time) will do so who won't as it's not part of what they do unless requested, or the owner doesn't bother at all as it never crosses their mind, just as those who have a towbar fitted, other than checking lights on what they are towing, won't give any thought to how well the tow bar is fitted, whether it has rust/corrosion at the attachment points, whether it needs maintenance etc.

If reading this thread prevents ONE instance of an A-framed car detaching, or becoming unsafe, because an owner decides to check it, it is a good thing, there's nothing wrong with that at all. As for A-framing itself, that is up to each person to decide if they want to do it, personally I wouldn't but that doesn't mean I would stop others from doing so by saying it is illegal as it isn't that clear cut, however I would advise them to ensure it is safe to use (ie maintenance etc wise).

You appear to have an 'issue' with Tony rather than the A-frame comments.

Thank you for that Minxy Girl !
at last, a voice of reason!

You mentioned towbars. My current Rapido came with a towbar already fitted. My first job was to remove, inspect, descale, repaint and refit with new bolts. (No easy task as it weighed 44kgs). I can post some shots here..

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[eddie]

Perhaps we should write to VOSA and explain all of the Pro's and Con's explain that you can't actually reverse a car on a A Frame, the braking is a bit of a bodge, and that some of the suppliers are cowboys, give a few examples of cars detaching themselves and careering down the road out of control and ask them for a 100% definitive answer rather than the ambiguous "its a trailer when its got an A frame on it" (yet they insist in another part of the legislation that the "trailer" has to have insurance, MOT and vehicle excise duty, none of which I have to have for my "proper" trailer)

I suspect if we did that, those that tow wouldn't like the outcome

So I guess that many like me, admit its probably not legal and when tested in Court its days will be numbered, but I will continue towing when it suits us and make steps to ensure mine is as safe as it possibly can be, and not engage with Naysayers trying to prove that it is in fact illegal!

 

[TonyEmm]

I fight my own corner which you should be well aware of from the times when I have responded to your previous baseless criticism of towing with a frames on this forum and it appears that you are the one capitalising on the OP and what is evidently either a bad installation poor maintenance or both.
Having towed different cars with different systems on different outfits from RVs to my present eurovan find them an extremely safe method of towing with the car sitting on its own four wheels unlike on a trailer with a much higher centre of gravity and likely on just two wheels and I would be interested to learn of your a frame towing experiences.

There are none so blind…..

my a-frame towing experience? I have none!
Given the current position of the DfT (insisting they comply with all Trailer regs) there isn’t one single a-frame out there that is legal!
That’s not to say they are unsafe (though some plainly are), the problem is that Trailer regulations are not fit for purpose regarding a-frame towing. I’ve said for a long time that an a-frame towed car should not be classed as a trailer, it should have it’s own vehicle classification, followed by appropriate standards and it’s own controls, regulations and inspection requirements.
I’ve towed all sorts of trailers over many years, and trained in the correct use of them but, given my stance on the current position of a-frames, it would be fairly hypocritical of me to use one.

That doesn’t make me unqualified to comment!

 

[monzer]

Ding ding

ROUND 2!

 

[Barclaybasher]

I don't think it's that clear cut, the installation was done incorrectly from the start by the look of it and would, at some point, fail. The car hadn't done a lot of mileage (assuming it recorded it when towed) so if it had been A-framed more extensively, as many do, it could have failed sooner. Yes there is rust etc but that doesn't negate the fact that the mountings should have been done properly in the first place, if they had been maybe there wouldn't have been anywhere for rust to start forming?

Does everyone who has a tow bar on their vehicle check it is still okay after 11 years? I doubt many do as it's pretty much a 'fit and forget' addition.

You are correct but after 10 years? - but what proof is there that the installation wasn't done properly.

What is certain is that nobody has inspected it until now.

On what basis will an insurance company feel it should pay any claim?

 

[TonyEmm]

Perhaps we should write to VOSA and explain all of the Pro's and Con's explain that you can't actually reverse a car on a A Frame, the braking is a bit of a bodge, and that some of the suppliers are cowboys, give a few examples of cars detaching themselves and careering down the road out of control and ask them for a 100% definitive answer rather than the ambiguous "its a trailer when its got an A frame on it" (yet they insist in another part of the legislation that the "trailer" has to have insurance, MOT and vehicle excise duty, none of which I have to have for my "proper" trailer)

I suspect if we did that, those that tow wouldn't like the outcome

So I guess that many like me, admit its probably not legal and when tested in Court its days will be numbered, but I will continue towing when it suits us and make steps to ensure mine is as safe as it possibly can be, and not engage with Naysayers trying to prove that it is in fact illegal!

I’ve already done what you’ve suggested, to DfT, DVSA, DVLA, NaVCIS, NTTA, SMMT…….

TBH, the days of a-frame towing are numbered anyway. It will soon be a rapidly declining market. The introduction of EV’s will see to that!

My objective is to limit the number of accidents in the meantime….

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[TonyEmm]

Ding ding

ROUND 2!

New opponent!!

 

[olley]

We will just use a towing dolly then Tony.

 

[Minxy]

You are correct but after 10 years? - but what proof is there that the installation wasn't done properly.

What is certain is that nobody has inspected it until now.

On what basis will an insurance company feel it should pay any claim?

I think we can all understand that in our 'unqualified' eyes using mountings attached to a weak point on the toad vehicle isn't right, whether using towing eye points or not, the attachment site should be more robust than it appears to be.

As for inspection, no idea, how obvious it was prior to this is difficult to say.

Insurance ... that is the big question, they will only pay out once fault has been established, if at all.

 

[Minxy]

We will just use a towing dolly then Tony.

Funnily enough would these be 'safer' than an A-frame? Perhaps that would be a good 'middle ground' between a car trailer and an A-frame?

 

[olley]

A simple way to test part of the installation, is to see if the eye bolts once fitted can be moved about because the mounting point in the cross member is flexing, if it can then you will get stress fatigue and the metal will eventually fail.

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