A Frame Disaster

[Minxy]

Have you evidence of this or is it hear say ?

Check the forum, some funsters HAVE been stopped and made to do this ... can't remember who but it HAS happened.

 

[Conniedriving]

Check the forum, some funsters HAVE been stopped and made to do this ... can't remember who but it HAS happened.

This is what I mean someone told you
Can’t remember who
Read it on a forum
Hear say

 

[Neil S]

Have you evidence of this or is it hear say ?

Yes I have a Motorhomer friend (not on this forum )from Lincolnshire who dismissed all this
“You can’t use an A frame in Spain"
Didn’t see him for a couple of years until we met up again at La Manga
This time he didn’t have his Peugeot 108 with him
Turned out he was pulled on the A23 by the Traffico , made to uncouple and threatened with prosecution if he didn’t comply
His poor wife who had never driven abroad had to drive 150 miles to the port

 

[Conniedriving]

I can answer that!

the company refused to open a dialogue with the user. On Monday, a solicitors letter was received threatening legal action if the company’s name was disclosed.
Only an idiot would then announce it on social media!

I can say that is also in the hands of Trading Standards as well as the Vehicle Safety Branch of the DVSA.
it may be a while before the company is exposed.
All I can say is, exercise caution if looking to purchase an a-frame, do your homework and do not believe everything certain companies publish on their websites.

As expected

 

[eddie]

Nothing like an A frame thread to bring out the knives lol My take on it is really simple

I personally believe that it is illegal realistically, as I am changing the way that my car was built structurally

It can't legally be a trailer as I cannot sensible reverse it, and I have towed 27' RIB's on trailers all over Europe behind a 36' RV so know how to reverse

The brakes don't work as they were intended to work

I know dozens of customers who have had issue's abroad and a friend of mine who runs a campsite in France (He refers to them a "Triangles" which I think is a better name) has helped many English customers who have ended up leaving the car with him, going home in the camper and coming back for the car on the train.

I also know that I for many years drove a series of RV's that weighed 10 - 12,000Kg on my car driving licence, happy in the knowledge that when they were three years old they would have to have a "car" Class Four MOT, that I wouldn't be allowed to take my HGV test in one as it wasn't one and that no one really cared or wanted to find out

About four years ago, we blew a front tyre on the A303 on a Bank Holiday Friday, right by a roundabout where the whole of the A303 was a single lane with dual lanes opposite. We had also decided as our dog was on his last legs to tow our Diahatsu Terios, a little 4 x 4 we had ordered to tow on an A Frame specifically as it was a popular towed car in the States and actually has a section in the handbook about towing it on a "A" Frame

The chaos that we caused waiting for ATS to attend, was awesome, Sally Traffic had a section all about us and the chaos we caused.

The Police were magnificent, directing the traffic on the single lane and running a rolling road block on the dual lane opposite, whilst Lyn and I made cups of tea and coffee for the Policemen that had turned up to "watch"

The Police were sat in a 12,000 Kg 34' RV drinking tea and eating my cake asking questions about how much is one new? What does it do to the Gallon? How many gallons does it hold? What does it cost to fill it up? Where's the best place we'd been, Can they take a photo to show their wife, Does your wife really drive this? What with the car on the back? The car must be brilliant, do we stick the RV on a pitch and then explore with the car or do we tour around with the RV, "OMG is that an ice maker" in there!

Not one question about what licence do you need to drive this? What Licence do you have? No questions about the legality of the RV or the Car or the Combination of the two, nothing remotely like anything pertaining to any awkwardness!

And this bearing in mind is when we have closed a third of the A303 on a August Bank Holiday Friday and we had about 12 Policemen in attendance helping us out.

So trying to get a definitive answer on here is like teaching a Pig to sing! Its a waste of time and annoys the Pig so should be avoided.

Those that feel/believe/know that A Frames are illegal will never change their position

Those that want to believe that A Frames are legal seem to try to convince others that they are! A collective "Come on in lads, the water's not cold" approach after you've been the first to strip off and dive off the Harbour wall in February

As I started this post, I believe that on the balance of probability and common sense if tested in a Court of Law it will be deemed illegal and then that will be the end of it, and I equally suspect that to the A Frame deniers, there must be a latent frustration that no one in UK has ever been prosecuted, I would imagine it must be like knowing that Aliens exist and waiting for them to show themselves.

However, we are all different, and I am prepared to take sensible and calculated risks. If my wife is driving the camper and I need the loo, I will undo my seat beat and go to the loo! and in the same way, may collect a snack or a drink as we drive! in the same way I would on a train or a coach. To some this is akin to suicide and I am a really REALLY BAD person!

So my advice, if asked, is to qualify it by saying you could ask 20 people and get different answers, but personally I wouldn't bother towing a "A" Framed car into Europe anymore, but do, from time to time tow it in the UK when it suits me and I sleep well!

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[Minxy]

This is what I mean someone told you
Can’t remember who
Read it on a forum
Hear say

Not sure what point you are trying to make ... it DOES and HAS happened to funsters, if I can be ars*d I'll try to find the thread(s) later so you can then enjoy a nice piece of humble pie!

 

[Conniedriving]

Not sure what point you are trying to make ... it DOES and HAS happened to funsters, if I can be ars*d I'll try to find the thread(s) later so you can then enjoy a nice piece of humble pie!

It we’ll have said on a forum but most of the time it’s hear say not fact
If you ask them to show police or court fine
They can’t

 

[chaser]

It we’ll have said on a forum but most of the time it’s hear say not fact
If you ask them to show police or court fine
They can’t

Don't think anyone mentioned fines, more that they had to unhook them and drive them separately.
There have been many posts on this.

 

[Minxy]

It we’ll have said on a forum but most of the time it’s hear say not fact
If you ask them to show police or court fine
They can’t

A few threads I've found referring to being fined for using an A-frame, there are probably a few more but hopefully this will suffice:

Friendly but firm police caution re A frame in France

I just love the soft blue cheese's like dolcelatte. A really strong Cheddar is nice as well.

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Friendly but firm police caution re A frame in France

I just love the soft blue cheese's like dolcelatte. A really strong Cheddar is nice as well.

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

SOLD - Car-A-Tow Braked A-frame

LAST CHANCE! FINAL PRICE CUT I've just put my tin hat on ready to deflect the flack :whistle: ..... ...So, for sale is my Car-A-Tow A-frame which is spare having bought a new (to us) toad which came with it's own frame. In perfect condition with obvious signs of use to paintwork, comes with...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

A frame towing

I dont know why A frames are ever cited in this argument as it's not really about A Frames is it? Its not permited to tow another vehicle in Spain period, as has already been stated except as a load on a recognised trailer. Spain simply does not recognise your A frame set up as a trailer If you...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

A Frame

Any one used an A Frame to tow a car behind a Motorhome in the last year or so. Can’t seem to find anything on any of the forums after 2015. All the installers that you talk to say that it is now legal in Europe and produce loads of facts and figures. Not going to Spain or Portugal, Very...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[Larrynwin]

A load of hot air about nothing.

A framing is not illegal , just refer to DVLA here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies

Where does it say it’s illegal and the fact there are DVLA recommendations , provided these are met towing with an a frame is legal.

Still a load of hot air about nothing, how many serious accidents caused by a framing , how many serious injuries or deaths caused by a framing .

The OP shows one problem , not a DISASTER caused by faulty installation and or maintenance and anti a frame experts get on their bikes to profess their expertise when in fact might well have never used an a frame to tow a vehicle themselves .

OK you cannot reverse them for more than a few yards, but how far do you need to reverse them?

A frames are used extensively across the USA to flat tow behind RVs and no evidence of problems over there.

If you don’t like a frames don’t use them but please don’t try and mess it up for those that legally safely use them day in day out.

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[olley]

I use an A frame but don't believe they are legal, but as long as the police show no interest and the DVLA keeps saying they're a trailer, I will keep using it.

If it looks like a car, drives like car, it's car!

 

[Puddleduck]

Yeh Spain is one country that A Frames you do take a risk in using one. If I decide to take a car abroad then I’ll consider a trailer just to be country compliant, but again I’ll have no place to store it at home.

Or don't take a car, just the motorhome and hire a car when abroad.

I even managed to hire a wheelchair adapted vehicle in Cyprus.

 

[gus-lopez]

Your scare mongering bud because if that was the case no insurance company would agree with it never mind state in on policies.

I am in spain.There is no 'knock for knock' here a victim has to be found even if it is the unfortunate soul who has done nothing wrong but has a minor ilegality.It all ends up with them.Been there ,seen it &done it. Therefore the slightest sign of a illegality has them drooling.

spotting 2 speeding toads in all the years you have been on the road.

No in the 4 months in 2019

Perhaps you should be more concerned if one of the many caravans on our roads - legal and with the correct C o C - speeding, involved in actual accidents, came anywhere near you.

Yes I lived in devon 20 years .Would pop onM5 at J 26 to get chemicals at J25 saturday mornings & end up trapped for hours. Weekly occurence.

and leave it to the experts (government).

which loops over the tow ball so if effect if it does gets detached the actual A Frame will al least not hit the floor

that's why trailers have a 'skid plate at front of tow bat to prevent ground contact

lease read my earlier posts with regard to the RVi Brake unit and similar where the breakaway cable pulls a switch attached to the car that instantly powers the brake unit to stop the car irrespective of which end of the a frame detaches.

& the only type that should be used.

" you seem to have a problem with A frames per-say,

& caravans, old nails of trailers, roof racks, bike racks +many other things.

Installing a secondary coupling defeats the whole object of the couplings handbrake and breakaway cable system. You will disable it from working.

Exactly 2 different systems for 2 differnt uses.

All this cars braking away from the aframe seems all fake news and is posted to put fear into those who do tow with the aframe
I wounded if I arranged a meeting with those who posted these post how many people would turn
One maybe ?

Front of the queue.

Have you evidence of this or is it hear say ?

as others have said there have been plenty of members on here who have posted of being stopped ,made to unhook & travel seperately.One member I recall was fined.

This is what I mean someone told you
Can’t remember who
Read it on a forum
Hear say

Yo're stretching it now.

Nothing like an A frame thread to bring out the knives lol My take on it is really simple

I personally believe that it is illegal realistically, as I am changing the way that my car was built structurally

It can't legally be a trailer as I cannot sensible reverse it, and I have towed 27' RIB's on trailers all over Europe behind a 36' RV so know how to reverse

The brakes don't work as they were intended to work

I know dozens of customers who have had issue's abroad and a friend of mine who runs a campsite in France (He refers to them a "Triangles" which I think is a better name) has helped many English customers who have ended up leaving the car with him, going home in the camper and coming back for the car on the train.

I also know that I for many years drove a series of RV's that weighed 10 - 12,000Kg on my car driving licence, happy in the knowledge that when they were three years old they would have to have a "car" Class Four MOT, that I wouldn't be allowed to take my HGV test in one as it wasn't one and that no one really cared or wanted to find out

About four years ago, we blew a front tyre on the A303 on a Bank Holiday Friday, right by a roundabout where the whole of the A303 was a single lane with dual lanes opposite. We had also decided as our dog was on his last legs to tow our Diahatsu Terios, a little 4 x 4 we had ordered to tow on an A Frame specifically as it was a popular towed car in the States and actually has a section in the handbook about towing it on a "A" Frame

The chaos that we caused waiting for ATS to attend, was awesome, Sally Traffic had a section all about us and the chaos we caused.

The Police were magnificent, directing the traffic on the single lane and running a rolling road block on the dual lane opposite, whilst Lyn and I made cups of tea and coffee for the Policemen that had turned up to "watch"

The Police were sat in a 12,000 Kg 34' RV drinking tea and eating my cake asking questions about how much is one new? What does it do to the Gallon? How many gallons does it hold? What does it cost to fill it up? Where's the best place we'd been, Can they take a photo to show their wife, Does your wife really drive this? What with the car on the back? The car must be brilliant, do we stick the RV on a pitch and then explore with the car or do we tour around with the RV, "OMG is that an ice maker" in there!

Not one question about what licence do you need to drive this? What Licence do you have? No questions about the legality of the RV or the Car or the Combination of the two, nothing remotely like anything pertaining to any awkwardness!

And this bearing in mind is when we have closed a third of the A303 on a August Bank Holiday Friday and we had about 12 Policemen in attendance helping us out.

So trying to get a definitive answer on here is like teaching a Pig to sing! Its a waste of time and annoys the Pig so should be avoided.

Those that feel/believe/know that A Frames are illegal will never change their position

Those that want to believe that A Frames are legal seem to try to convince others that they are! A collective "Come on in lads, the water's not cold" approach after you've been the first to strip off and dive off the Harbour wall in February

As I started this post, I believe that on the balance of probability and common sense if tested in a Court of Law it will be deemed illegal and then that will be the end of it, and I equally suspect that to the A Frame deniers, there must be a latent frustration that no one in UK has ever been prosecuted, I would imagine it must be like knowing that Aliens exist and waiting for them to show themselves.

However, we are all different, and I am prepared to take sensible and calculated risks. If my wife is driving the camper and I need the loo, I will undo my seat beat and go to the loo! and in the same way, may collect a snack or a drink as we drive! in the same way I would on a train or a coach. To some this is akin to suicide and I am a really REALLY BAD person!

So my advice, if asked, is to qualify it by saying you could ask 20 people and get different answers, but personally I wouldn't bother towing a "A" Framed car into Europe anymore, but do, from time to time tow it in the UK when it suits me and I sleep well!

& that in essence is the true state of play with them & the best post on the whole subject..

 

[TonyEmm]

One further comment, if you DO rely purely on a breakaway cable and the A-frame becomes detached from the towing vehicle, the the cable should do it's job and apply the brakes however if you slow the towing vehicle down there's a chance that the car could run into the back of it!

Thst’s also the issue with a secondary coupling. It prevents the A-frame breaking away from the Towbar, keeping the ‘trailer’ restrained. It then beats up the rear of your MoHo!

 

[Larrynwin]

Thst’s also the issue with a secondary coupling. It prevents the A-frame breaking away from the Towbar, keeping the ‘trailer’ restrained. It then beats up the rear of your MoHo!

In preference to oncoming traffic , seems a plus to me.

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[Puddleduck]

Personally I am not going to A frame and I am not going to trailer a car ..... I'll hire a car (if I need one) when I get to where I am going - unless it's to my parents when I drive the car down the A19 and Martin drives the motorhome down the A1 direct to the site.

Having said that with the cost of fuel it might work out cheaper to hire a car when we get there except I need the wheelchair hoist for Dad

 

[Pausim]

Thst’s also the issue with a secondary coupling. It prevents the A-frame breaking away from the Towbar, keeping the ‘trailer’ restrained. It then beats up the rear of your MoHo!

I would rather see it beating up the back of my motorhome than watch it plough into oncoming traffic. I can’t believe that jamming the brakes on guarantees bringing the toad/trailer to a perfectly safe stop, particularly on a bend.

 

[Happy Jim]

So trying to get a definitive answer on here is like teaching a Pig to sing! Its a waste of time and annoys the Pig so should be avoided.

That made me laugh!

We all need to take accountability for checking our own vehicles are in a safe condition each time we drive, once a year on one day the MOT person will give you a clean bill of health on a prescribed list of common danger areas, the other 364 days it’s up to us!

I’m strongly thinking of getting a Toad but wobbling over the man maths of the £3K cost on top of the car…..that would do a lot of hire cars! But this thread has given me knowledge and insight that I wouldn’t otherwise have had (hasn’t put me off either).

Jim

 

[WASPES]

And you worry about an A frame coming loose.

 

[TonyEmm]

And you worry about an A frame coming loose.

It was only the back wheels!

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[TonyEmm]

This is what I mean someone told you
Can’t remember who
Read it on a forum
Hear say

I could give you the FB I.D. of one who was forced to seperate his vehicles, (in Spain) fined and forced to buy a trailer as his disabled wife couldn’t drive…. Or do you want the one who was fined for a-framing in France, after breaking down on the motorway?

I’m not sure if I’m allowed to promote another group here but there is a specialist FB group about A-frames, motorhomes and towed cars. If you doubt the validity of any claims, search for it.

both are group members!

 

[TonyEmm]

All this cars braking away from the aframe seems all fake news and is posted to put fear into those who do tow with the aframe
I wounded if I arranged a meeting with those who posted these post how many people would turn
One maybe ?

Fake news? Join a specialist a-frame group! It gets a bit heated in there but I think you might be enlightened!

 

[TonyEmm]

Not sure what point you are trying to make ... it DOES and HAS happened to funsters, if I can be ars*d I'll try to find the thread(s) later so you can then enjoy a nice piece of humble pie!

Conniedriving is clearly a naysayer! I don’t know if she a-frames or not but I wonder how she’d feel if her a-frame broke away like this? Or worse, one of hers was hit by it?

regarding being fined abroad, I can point her in the direction of folk actually fined in Spain (mostly), but also France and Germany. The only guaranteed safe place currently to A-frame is the U.K.! Though you might get hit by a runaway…

 

[TonyEmm]

Conniedriving is clearly a naysayer! I don’t know if she a-frames or not but I wonder how she’d feel if her a-frame broke away like this? Or worse, one of hers was hit by it?

regarding being fined abroad, I can point her in the direction of folk actually fined in Spain (mostly), but also France and Germany. The only guaranteed safe place currently to A-frame is the U.K.! Though you might get hit by a runaway…

For info, this was 2 weeks ago. The fence stopped the car going onto a railway line (remember Selby, 20 years ago?) and it was a Sunday so no kids on the pathway from the nearby school !

 

[Larrynwin]

Conniedriving is clearly a naysayer! I don’t know if she a-frames or not but I wonder how she’d feel if her a-frame broke away like this? Or worse, one of hers was hit by it?

regarding being fined abroad, I can point her in the direction of folk actually fined in Spain (mostly), but also France and Germany. The only guaranteed safe place currently to A-frame is the U.K.! Though you might get hit by a runaway…

You continue with your scaremongering and promoting something anti to many Fun members, really on a roll eh. Just how many cases of runaways can you show us ?

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[Geo]

My mate has read this post and has conluded best of both is the best way to go

 

[Langtoftlad]

that would do a lot of hire cars

That's certainly true... pennies wise.
But doesn't take into account the time taken to book one, getting shuttled to their office, doing the paperwork... then doing all in reverse.
Not a spontaneous thing.

Unless of course you plan to hire a care from arrival until departure whether you have any use for it or not.
I can sort of see the attraction in that... but then the cost savings aren't so good.

 

[Gromett]

I had a towbar professionally fitted a few years ago and the twit just used the bumper carrier bolts, the main strength was in the angle iron that slotted into the chassis he hadn't bothered to bolt up

Fortunately I found out what he'd done a few months later when the thing dropped as I hitched up.

The only reason I didn't fit it myself is I couldn't source one cheaper.
Every towbar I've had fitted has been a balls up.. I never learn

I use PF Jones for my towbars. They are excellent quality with great instructions. Very solid and well engineered. The low prices are a surprising positive.

Just about to fit one to my little van.

Fitted one to my last Ducato and it was extremely solid and became a structural part of the suspension and rear chassis.

 

[Minxy]

You continue with your scaremongering and promoting something anti to many Fun members, really on a roll eh. Just how many cases of runaways can you show us ?

Why is it scaremongering? I wouldn't do A-framing but it doesn't mean I would prevent someone from doing it if they wanted to.

 

[big map]

Have you evidence of this or is it hear say ?

This is what I mean someone told you
Can’t remember who
Read it on a forum
Hear say

It we’ll have said on a forum but most of the time it’s hear say not fact
If you ask them to show police or court fine
They can’t

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