4250kg imminent?

[Jofang]

I picked up the text below today from www.camping-car.org, which is dated 21st December 2024. The original text is in French.

The format of the three-part pink driving license was inconvenient and specific to France and some European countries. The new format called credit card is therefore closer to the format of the national identity card and other useful cards (health card, blue card, etc.). The new format is supplemented with various security features including watermark photography and page background. Its falsification therefore becomes much more difficult.

The new credit card format is also much less sensitive to handling accidents: rain, tearing, creasing, etc.

Finally, this format and its content are now officially recognized in all countries of the European Union and many EU partner countries (Norway for example).

But it is above all the fact of finally being able to officially drive vehicles with a GVW of 4250 kg with a B license that interests motorhome drivers. We are still far from the 7 to 8 tons authorized in most states in the United States and Canada. But it is a significant step towards the generalization of new vehicles with greater usability.

 

[SMB]

The UK is the only country to have grandfather rights in respect of "over 3500kg to 7500kg" every other country you will need to take a C1 driving test.

When I exchanged my UK licence for a Spanish licence in 2020 I had to take a short medical test but not a driving test to retain my C1. Don't know whether this has changed.

 

[smeaty]

Do you have a link?

Presumably to an explanatory guidance document, Directives don't include the EU Member States' implementation.

Welcome to the forum.

Decision 2016/1945 - Equivalences between categories of driving licences (notified under document C(2016) 6517) - EU monitor

www.eumonitor.eu

Its complicated,I may be wrong

 

[Sewdhull]

The change is for Alternatively powered vehicles, there's no reason to suppose it will be extended to the other 3.5T categories for other vehicles. Its mere being introduced cos batteries are heavy compared to an ICE.

C1 is the category for heavier vehicles, but its a shame it's not automatically given. Such is life.

In the US you can pootle around in almost 12 tonne vehicles in the std licence, but they not only have a different vehicle ethos, they have a very different road network.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2023/749788/EPRS_BRI(2023)749788_EN.pdf

 

[PaulW2]

The change is for Alternatively powered vehicles, there's no reason to suppose it will be extended to the other 3.5T categories for other vehicles. Its mere being introduced cos batteries are heavy compared to an ICE.

C1 is the category for heavier vehicles, but its a shame it's not automatically given. Such is life.

In the US you can pootle around in almost 12 tonne vehicles in the std licence, but they not only have a different vehicle ethos, they have a very different road network.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2023/749788/EPRS_BRI(2023)749788_EN.pdf

See the link given in #16 to what the European Parliament adopted in 2024, where motor caravans do appear to be in scope.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[DDJC]

The change is for Alternatively powered vehicles, there's no reason to suppose it will be extended to the other 3.5T categories for other vehicles. Its mere being introduced cos batteries are heavy compared to an ICE.

C1 is the category for heavier vehicles, but its a shame it's not automatically given. Such is life.

In the US you can pootle around in almost 12 tonne vehicles in the std licence, but they not only have a different vehicle ethos, they have a very different road network.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2023/749788/EPRS_BRI(2023)749788_EN.pdf

It doesn't actually say that. In fact, it is very poorly worded:

"Permission to drive a vehicle weighing up to 4 250 kg with a B-category driving licence if the alternative vehicle is powered (the current weight allowed for this category is 3 500 kg)"

Doesn't make sense.

 

[Sewdhull]

See the link given in #16 to what the European Parliament adopted in 2024, where motor caravans do appear to be in scope.

Yes I agree, I was in error.

Looks like they are adding, in the EU 750kg to the relevant categories. Interesting

 

[Guigsy]

In the US you can pootle around in almost 12 tonne vehicles in the std licence, but they not only have a different vehicle ethos, they have a very different road network.

And a road death rate that's significantly higher than this side of the pond. And unlike us, their rate is increasing.

 

[DDJC]

See the link given in #16 to what the European Parliament adopted in 2024, where motor caravans do appear to be in scope.

Thanks Paul, yes, this was my understanding:

Article 2 - Definitions

(11b) ‘motor caravan’ means a vehicle category M with a living accommodation area containing seating and a table, separate or folding sleeping berths, cooking facilities as well as cupboards and storage space, all of which shall be rigidly fixed to the living compartment, as referred to under ‘Criteria for vehicle categorisation’, ‘Special purpose vehicles’, in Annex I, part A point 5.1 to Regulation (EU) 2018/858; ​

The definition of motor caravans may be key. Does it include PVCs or other conversions? Is it for member/non-member states to define?

Then we get to Article 9 where it clearly states the increase to 4250, but after two years.

Article 9 - Staging and equivalences between categories

(ha) two years after a driving licence, granted for category B, was issued for the first time, it shall be valid for driving ambulances as defined in Article 2 [(11a)] and other special usage vehicles, as well as motor caravans, as defined in Article 2 [(11b)] of this Directive that are up to 4250 kg;​

Being a trailer tower, my issue is that there is no direct link between BE adding a trailer of 3500, and Article 9. I have to therefore assume that as it is not explicitly stated otherwise, then a max trailer weight of 3500 will continue to apply for motor caravans.

As it is a Directive, it isn't EU law (Regulation). Therefore each member state must bring it into law, and adhere to a timetable supplied by the EU. A key point is that once a Directive has been given, every member may as well bring it in, as to not do so, only disadvantages it's own citizens.

But for us in UK, the government can decide to agree to apply a directive, modify it in some way, or ignore it. It would be daft for UK to ignore this Directive, and we can expect the Government to adopt it fully.

The question is, how quickly they are going to do it?

 

[jongood]

I actually think a bit of training for driving bigger vehicles wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Im also in favour of retesting.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[DDJC]

I actually think a bit of training for driving bigger vehicles wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Im also in favour of retesting.

Your suggestion won't work for us.

Apart from the bleeding obvious that my motorhome won't get longer. Or wider. Or higher. The trailer will still have a car on it. Yet Mrs DDJC drives it with total competence. No need for a test.

It is like this. Mrs DDJC who has a post 1996 licence. When we were tuggers, she passed her BE, so we could pull a van. So on her BE, she can drive a 3500kg Mh with a 2000kg trailer. However, if she takes the test and goes up to C, then her trailer size is dropped down to 750kg.

And this is the problem. When she did her BE, the examiner insisted that she demonstrate her ability to hook up a trailer. Now Mrs DDJC has three vertebrae fused due to a patient handling accident when she was a student nurse. She cannot lift much. The examiner nearly failed her because of it. Since then we have asked and basically, if you cannot demonstrate hooking up you won't get a CE.

So, we will wait until the weight limit for B goes up.

 

[Lenny HB]

The UK is the only country to have grandfather rights in respect of "over 3500kg to 7500kg" every other country you will need to take a C1 driving test.

I think Germany has grandfather rights.

 

[jongood]

Your suggestion won't work for us.

Apart from the bleeding obvious that my motorhome won't get longer. Or wider. Or higher. The trailer will still have a car on it. Yet Mrs DDJC drives it with total competence. No need for a test.

It is like this. Mrs DDJC who has a post 1996 licence. When we were tuggers, she passed her BE, so we could pull a van. So on her BE, she can drive a 3500kg Mh with a 2000kg trailer. However, if she takes the test and goes up to C, then her trailer size is dropped down to 750kg.

And this is the problem. When she did her BE, the examiner insisted that she demonstrate her ability to hook up a trailer. Now Mrs DDJC has three vertebrae fused due to a patient handling accident when she was a student nurse. She cannot lift much. The examiner nearly failed her because of it. Since then we have asked and basically, if you cannot demonstrate hooking up you won't get a CE.

So, we will wait until the weight limit for B goes up.

If she's good then fair enough but a lot of people arent. You dont have to sit in a caravan site or aire for long to see people who really could use some help.

If your wife has passed her trailer test then surely she would get C1E which actually means she could tow any weight of trailer up to gtw 12t.

 

[Widge]

If she's good then fair enough but a lot of people arent. You dont have to sit in a caravan site or aire for long to see people who really could use some help.

If your wife has passed her trailer test then surely she would get C1E which actually means she could tow any weight of trailer up to gtw 12t.

I doubt it, currently she has the ability to tow a trailer upto 2t, a C1E could mean that she could tow a trailer upto and possibly exceeding 4.5t, depending on the towing capacity and laden weight of the tow vehicle.

 

[jongood]

I doubt it, currently she has the ability to tow a trailer upto 2t, a C1E could mean that she could tow a trailer upto and possibly exceeding 4.5t, depending on the towing capacity and laden weight of the tow vehicle.

Is there a weight limit on BE? If there is it would surely be 3500kgs? But in practical terms C&u regs would kick in before she got any higher but it should cover the current needs.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[DDJC]

Is there a weight limit on BE? If there is it would surely be 3500kgs? But in practical terms C&u regs would kick in before she got any higher but it should cover the current needs.

I doubt it, currently she has the ability to tow a trailer upto 2t, a C1E could mean that she could tow a trailer upto and possibly exceeding 4.5t, depending on the towing capacity and laden weight of the tow vehicle.

If she's good then fair enough but a lot of people arent. You dont have to sit in a caravan site or aire for long to see people who really could use some help.

If your wife has passed her trailer test then surely she would get C1E which actually means she could tow any weight of trailer up to gtw 12t.

Looked into this, and C and C1 has a trailer limit of 750kg. Currently a BE can drive a 3500kg with a trailer of up to 3500kg. If Mrs DDJC wants to pull our 1500kg trailer (little car on it) with a MH over 3500kg, she need a C1E or CE.

So we are eagerly waiting for this B cat weight change to 4250kg.

Driving licence categories

Driving licence categories - entitlements on your licence and what vehicles you can drive - cars, motorcycles, mopeds, medium and large lorries, minibuses and buses.

www.gov.uk

 

[jongood]

Looked into this, and C and C1 has a trailer limit of 750kg. Currently a BE can drive a 3500kg with a trailer of up to 3500kg. If Mrs DDJC wants to pull our 1500kg trailer (little car on it) with a MH over 3500kg, she need a C1E or CE.

So we are eagerly waiting for this B cat weight change to 4250kg.

Driving licence categories

Driving licence categories - entitlements on your licence and what vehicles you can drive - cars, motorcycles, mopeds, medium and large lorries, minibuses and buses.

www.gov.uk

Of course the increase in weight would be easier for you but if it doesn't materialise then if she were to take a C1, this would then surely be C1+E because she already passed the trailer test.

 

[DDJC]

Of course the increase in weight would be easier for you but if it doesn't materialise then if she were to take a C1, this would then surely be C1+E because she already passed the trailer test.

Nope separate tests. I've checked with DVLA.

 

[Roby2008]

I think Germany has grandfather rights.

It does, but they are not transferable from another country, sadly.

 

[Roby2008]

Pulled this from an online news site here in Germany from Jan 25th , its an interesting read, and puts the implementation at 2026 to 2028 : Its a translation, so excuse the strange English.

The increase in the weight limit of the B driving licence class to 4.25 tonnes is within reach. What this means for motorhome fans and when it could come.
Lobbying is a tough and, above all, lengthy business. As early as 2003, the European Caravanning Federation (ECF), with strong support from the German association CIVD, approached the European Union (EU) for the first time with a concrete proposal to extend the driving licence for motorhomes for holders of class B car driving licences. Instead of 3.5 tonnes, the weight limit of mobile homes should be raised to 4.25 tonnes in the future.
After tough negotiations, there is a kind of success story a good 20 years later. "All three decision-making bodies in the EU, the Commission, the Council and the Parliament, have agreed in principle to an increase to 4.25 tonnes for the planned 4th Driving Licence Directive," explains Jost Krüger, who was directly involved in the project as Secretary General of the ECF and Head of the Technology Division at the CIVD, and immediately adds a very big but. "Agreement on the conditions still has to be reached between the three bodies, and a lot of time will also pass before this is then implemented in national law in the EU countries." His prediction: "That will be 2028. At the earliest!"

Two-class society for campers​

But why is this change so important in the first place? With the introduction of the B driving licence in 1999, motorhome owners became a two-class society, so to speak. Those with the old class 3 driving licence can still drive the "big things" up to 7.5 tonnes due to the protection of the status quo, while the B driving licence holders are only allowed to drive campers and motorhomes up to 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight.
There are many reasons why this mark is becoming increasingly difficult to meet. In the case of the basic vehicles, for example, elaborate exhaust gas purification, AdBlue tanks and assistance systems drive up the curb weight – not to mention all-wheel drive and air suspensions. Increased comfort requirements have meant that awnings and satellite TV systems are almost a must, and the desire for more self-sufficiency requires additional batteries and possibly solar cells on the roof. The fact that e-bikes are often still taken on board instead of "normal" bicycles adds up to the pounds.

E-mobility becomes a challenge​

With a camper van or converted panel van, this may just work with a crew of four. Even with smaller semi-integrated, however, not anymore. In view of the change to the electric age, which is certainly even further away for motorhomes than in the passenger car sector, but will still have to come here sooner or later, the 3.5-ton limit is no longer practicable, even with the small formats.
Mainly because of the electric aspect, there is likely to have been movement in the EU last year. For example, the EU Commission has agreed to increase the limit to 4.25 tonnes, provided that these are motorhomes with alternative drives. However, the CIVD continues to push for an increased weight limit to apply to all motorhomes if possible. Because, as mentioned, the curb weights are generally driven up, but on the other hand, thanks to additional safety technology, it is not a problem for drivers to move the higher mass safely.

Various ideas for implementation​

Therefore, the association hopes that the EU Council or the EU Parliament will prevail with their proposals. The Council of Europe votes in favour of the raised weight mark being applied to everyone, but that B licence holders must complete training or a test for an additional driving licence, as has been the case with sidecar drivers for years with the B96 licence.
The EU Parliament has the lowest requirements. There, too, people vote for the 4.25-ton limit, valid for all motorhomes. However, the driving licence holders should have their B licence for at least two years.

So now it is only a matter of the Commission, Council of Ministers and Parliament agreeing on a version in the so-called trilogue. And that is supposed to take so long, possibly until 2026? Jost Krüger points out that "the caravan association ultimately only represents a relatively small group".

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Jonno1103]

Any licence holder without grandfather rights or C1 can legally drive 4250kg if the engine is powered by HVO as it's an alternate power source. The 4th Directive will be ratified and in use long before 2028 both in the EU & the UK. We already have 3 of the 6 components in play, the first was zero tollerance for any drink driving, the 2nd was the age lowering to 18 for HGV & PCV, and the 3rd, the digital licence, begins this year. This year here in the UK the 50km restriction for 18 -20 year olds will also be lifted.

 

[Saucer]

I doubt there are many vans powered by HVO?

 

[Jonno1103]

I doubt there are many vans powered by HVO?

Yeah but that's only because there's not many forecourt pumps in the UK yet, there's loads in Ireland. Euro 6 engines love the stuff, it's like filling with premium diesel.

 

[Widge]

Yeah but that's only because there's not many forecourt pumps in the UK yet, there's loads in Ireland. Euro 6 engines love the stuff, it's like filling with premium diesel.

I have always thought it mad that the sewers get clogged up causing fatbergs, becouse it costs the food outlets/restaurants so much for disposal, when the water companies could take it away for free, then run their fleet of vehicles on it.

 

[jongood]

Any licence holder without grandfather rights or C1 can legally drive 4250kg if the engine is powered by HVO as it's an alternate power source. The 4th Directive will be ratified and in use long before 2028 both in the EU & the UK. We already have 3 of the 6 components in play, the first was zero tollerance for any drink driving, the 2nd was the age lowering to 18 for HGV & PCV, and the 3rd, the digital licence, begins this year. This year here in the UK the 50km restriction for 18 -20 year olds will also be lifted.

Imho this is speculation and not fact

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Saucer]

Yeah but that's only because there's not many forecourt pumps in the UK yet, there's loads in Ireland. Euro 6 engines love the stuff, it's like filling with premium diesel.

Well you learn something every day

 

[Saucer]

It looks like it is dearer than regular diesel, which won’t help in take up

 

[mikash]

Yeah but that's only because there's not many forecourt pumps in the UK yet, there's loads in Ireland. Euro 6 engines love the stuff, it's like filling with premium diesel.

Here there used to be a "mix" for sale at reasonable cost that would give you the benefits of HVO for the engine with the price close to regular diesel but since it vanished from the market some people now just utilize a two pump strategy and mostly fuel with regular diesel but add some HVO to go with it to get most of the benefit for considerably less cost.
The problem with HVO as I see it is that I am not sure there's really enough vegetable oils available sustainably to scale the production. The manufacturers highlight how they recycle used cooking oil etc but in reality the biggest component is usually palm oil distillate which isn't really recycling leftovers even if it is in some countries classified as a waste product and hence enjoys certain benefits in the related legislation.

 

[Jonno1103]

It looks like it is dearer than regular diesel, which won’t help in take up

It is but you get more mpg from it, no need to by Adblue and engines are more responsive.

 

[Jonno1103]

Here there used to be a "mix" for sale at reasonable cost that would give you the benefits of HVO for the engine with the price close to regular diesel but since it vanished from the market some people now just utilize a two pump strategy and mostly fuel with regular diesel but add some HVO to go with it to get most of the benefit for considerably less cost.
The problem with HVO as I see it is that I am not sure there's really enough vegetable oils available sustainably to scale the production. The manufacturers highlight how they recycle used cooking oil etc but in reality the biggest component is usually palm oil distillate which isn't really recycling leftovers even if it is in some countries classified as a waste product and hence enjoys certain benefits in the related legislation.

At the moment the obstacle is both Russia & the Ukraine as over 60% of the worlds sunflower oil is supplied between them. Stocks are relying on rapeseed for mass production mainly from the EU & Canada.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[CAB96]

Pulled this from an online news site here in Germany from Jan 25th , its an interesting read, and puts the implementation at 2026 to 2028 : Its a translation, so excuse the strange English.

The increase in the weight limit of the B driving licence class to 4.25 tonnes is within reach. What this means for motorhome fans and when it could come.
Lobbying is a tough and, above all, lengthy business. As early as 2003, the European Caravanning Federation (ECF), with strong support from the German association CIVD, approached the European Union (EU) for the first time with a concrete proposal to extend the driving licence for motorhomes for holders of class B car driving licences. Instead of 3.5 tonnes, the weight limit of mobile homes should be raised to 4.25 tonnes in the future.
After tough negotiations, there is a kind of success story a good 20 years later. "All three decision-making bodies in the EU, the Commission, the Council and the Parliament, have agreed in principle to an increase to 4.25 tonnes for the planned 4th Driving Licence Directive," explains Jost Krüger, who was directly involved in the project as Secretary General of the ECF and Head of the Technology Division at the CIVD, and immediately adds a very big but. "Agreement on the conditions still has to be reached between the three bodies, and a lot of time will also pass before this is then implemented in national law in the EU countries." His prediction: "That will be 2028. At the earliest!"

Two-class society for campers​

But why is this change so important in the first place? With the introduction of the B driving licence in 1999, motorhome owners became a two-class society, so to speak. Those with the old class 3 driving licence can still drive the "big things" up to 7.5 tonnes due to the protection of the status quo, while the B driving licence holders are only allowed to drive campers and motorhomes up to 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight.
There are many reasons why this mark is becoming increasingly difficult to meet. In the case of the basic vehicles, for example, elaborate exhaust gas purification, AdBlue tanks and assistance systems drive up the curb weight – not to mention all-wheel drive and air suspensions. Increased comfort requirements have meant that awnings and satellite TV systems are almost a must, and the desire for more self-sufficiency requires additional batteries and possibly solar cells on the roof. The fact that e-bikes are often still taken on board instead of "normal" bicycles adds up to the pounds.

E-mobility becomes a challenge​

With a camper van or converted panel van, this may just work with a crew of four. Even with smaller semi-integrated, however, not anymore. In view of the change to the electric age, which is certainly even further away for motorhomes than in the passenger car sector, but will still have to come here sooner or later, the 3.5-ton limit is no longer practicable, even with the small formats.
Mainly because of the electric aspect, there is likely to have been movement in the EU last year. For example, the EU Commission has agreed to increase the limit to 4.25 tonnes, provided that these are motorhomes with alternative drives. However, the CIVD continues to push for an increased weight limit to apply to all motorhomes if possible. Because, as mentioned, the curb weights are generally driven up, but on the other hand, thanks to additional safety technology, it is not a problem for drivers to move the higher mass safely.

Various ideas for implementation​

Therefore, the association hopes that the EU Council or the EU Parliament will prevail with their proposals. The Council of Europe votes in favour of the raised weight mark being applied to everyone, but that B licence holders must complete training or a test for an additional driving licence, as has been the case with sidecar drivers for years with the B96 licence.
The EU Parliament has the lowest requirements. There, too, people vote for the 4.25-ton limit, valid for all motorhomes. However, the driving licence holders should have their B licence for at least two years.

So now it is only a matter of the Commission, Council of Ministers and Parliament agreeing on a version in the so-called trilogue. And that is supposed to take so long, possibly until 2026? Jost Krüger points out that "the caravan association ultimately only represents a relatively small group".

So it's still in the trilogue, and not agreed yet?

In that case I agree with him, likely to be well in to late 2025 to agree the text, couple of months before publication, then implementation could be two years. Each EU Member State has to write it into their own legislation (as it is a Directive, not a Regulation).