4250kg imminent?

[Jofang]

I picked up the text below today from www.camping-car.org, which is dated 21st December 2024. The original text is in French.

The format of the three-part pink driving license was inconvenient and specific to France and some European countries. The new format called credit card is therefore closer to the format of the national identity card and other useful cards (health card, blue card, etc.). The new format is supplemented with various security features including watermark photography and page background. Its falsification therefore becomes much more difficult.

The new credit card format is also much less sensitive to handling accidents: rain, tearing, creasing, etc.

Finally, this format and its content are now officially recognized in all countries of the European Union and many EU partner countries (Norway for example).

But it is above all the fact of finally being able to officially drive vehicles with a GVW of 4250 kg with a B license that interests motorhome drivers. We are still far from the 7 to 8 tons authorized in most states in the United States and Canada. But it is a significant step towards the generalization of new vehicles with greater usability.

 

[CAB96]

Any licence holder without grandfather rights or C1 can legally drive 4250kg if the engine is powered by HVO as it's an alternate power source. The 4th Directive will be ratified and in use long before 2028 both in the EU & the UK. We already have 3 of the 6 components in play, the first was zero tollerance for any drink driving, the 2nd was the age lowering to 18 for HGV & PCV, and the 3rd, the digital licence, begins this year. This year here in the UK the 50km restriction for 18 -20 year olds will also be lifted.

Did you read the post above?

The 4th Directive is likely to be implemented at least a year after publication, which isn't likely until late 25 / 2026 if the article is correct, and it sounds like the author is very close to the process.

And it's EU. Nothing to do with UK. In order to implement something similar, someone in the UK Parliament has to get the legislation off the ground and through the UK process.

I've not seen anything concrete on this for the UK, just speculation.

 

[The Artilleryman]

What I said about 6 pages ago.

 

[Jonno1103]

Did you read the post above?

The 4th Directive is likely to be implemented at least a year after publication, which isn't likely until late 25 / 2026 if the article is correct, and it sounds like the author is very close to the process.

And it's EU. Nothing to do with UK. In order to implement something similar, someone in the UK Parliament has to get the legislation off the ground and through the UK process.

I've not seen anything concrete on this for the UK, just speculation.

Did you read my post? We already have 3 of current 6 components now being discussed in the EU.

Originally there were 9 components in all of which one was already in play in UK - the ability to drive a vehicle on a provisional licence if accompanied by a qualified driver, and there's one which has nothing to do with us as we're not a member state.

So in all a total 7 components which we could as a nation adhere to.

Of those remaining 7, so far, we have 1/ digital licence. 2/ Digital gateway - both coming online in 2025. 3/ two year probation for new drivers. 4/ zero tolerance to alcohol driving. 5/ adaptive driver training for risk assesement i:e Hazard awareness.

The two remaining are increasing the B licence to 4250kg & finally... medical self assessment for every application & renewal.

As is usual in UK, we have gone and are going further. B+E has been added to all post 1997 licences and the next will be to remove the 50km distance limit for young HGV & PSV drivers. The latter is being done due to the advanced Driver CPC - Certificate of Professional Competance which includes a further 35 hours of driver training for post '97 drivers or online theory for those pre '97. This must be done every 5 years.

To conclude, there was no act or 'getting off the floor' when the UK implemented B+E for post 1997 drivers in December 2021.

 

[CAB96]

Did you read my post? We already have 3 of current 6 components now being discussed in the EU.

Originally there were 9 components in all of which one was already in play in UK - the ability to drive a vehicle on a provisional licence if accompanied by a qualified driver, and there's one which has nothing to do with us as we're not a member state.

So in all a total 7 components which we could as a nation adhere to.

Of those remaining 7, so far, we have 1/ digital licence. 2/ Digital gateway - both coming online in 2025. 3/ two year probation for new drivers. 4/ zero tolerance to alcohol driving. 5/ adaptive driver training for risk assesement i:e Hazard awareness.

The two remaining are increasing the B licence to 4250kg & finally... medical self assessment for every application & renewal.

As is usual in UK, we have gone and are going further. B+E has been added to all post 1997 licences and the next will be to remove the 50km distance limit for young HGV & PSV drivers. The latter is being done due to the advanced Driver CPC - Certificate of Professional Competance which includes a further 35 hours of driver training for post '97 drivers or online theory for those pre '97. This must be done every 5 years.

Ah I see, thank you.

I wasn't aware of the discussions (or announced intentions?) on zero alcohol tolerance? I shall have to research.

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[Jonno1103]

Ah I see, thank you.

I wasn't aware of the discussions (or announced intentions?) on zero alcohol tolerance? I shall have to research.

I'm still waiting for confirmation of the zero alcohol although the current 0.080 blood alcohol limit is very small even though it's possibly already the highest in any European country.

Remember too that this figure is blood alcohol, for breath, as in the side of the road, it's only 0.035.

A single pint of 3.5%/4% ABV means that you'll be over the limit for a minimum of 2 hours after drinking it... have a pint of this at 1pm with a pub lunch, you'll be over the limit until around 315pm. Have 2 pints then you'll need to wait until about 515pm.

Have a single pint of something stronger, say 5% -5.5% then that 1pm pint means you'll be over the limit 'til around 415pm.

It's very true wahat they say about 'know your units'... each unit adds an hour to the waiting time and the minimum is usually a single 40% spirit, that's 1 unit = 1 hour or 75 mins to be sure.

Sit in the pub stopover until 11pm and drink 4 pints of Peroni then you're over the limit until 11am the following day.

Current intel suggests that at any one time during the hours of daylight nearly 7% of UK drivers are over the limit. Doesn't sound a lot but that's just over 2.9m people behind the wheel.

Sobering thought! (pun intended)

 

[Nomadics]

At the moment the obstacle is both Russia & the Ukraine as over 60% of the worlds sunflower oil is supplied between them. Stocks are relying on rapeseed for mass production mainly from the EU & Canada.

Probably no coincidence that in times of growing appetite for alternatives to fossil fuels, that Russia invades and claims sovereignty over the 'breadbasket of Europe' (and key to global biofuel production) ... Ukraine!

 

[nicholsong]

I'm still waiting for confirmation of the zero alcohol although the current 0.080 blood alcohol limit is very small even though it's possibly already the highest in any European country.

Remember too that this figure is blood alcohol, for breath, as in the side of the road, it's only 0.035.

A single pint of 3.5%/4% ABV means that you'll be over the limit for a minimum of 2 hours after drinking it... have a pint of this at 1pm with a pub lunch, you'll be over the limit until around 315pm. Have 2 pints then you'll need to wait until about 515pm.

Have a single pint of something stronger, say 5% -5.5% then that 1pm pint means you'll be over the limit 'til around 415pm.

It's very true wahat they say about 'know your units'... each unit adds an hour to the waiting time and the minimum is usually a single 40% spirit, that's 1 unit = 1 hour or 75 mins to be sure.

Sit in the pub stopover until 11pm and drink 4 pints of Peroni then you're over the limit until 11am the following day.

Current intel suggestsdurin that at any one time g the hours of daylight nearly 7% of UK drivers are over the limit. Doesn't sound a lot but that's just over 2.9m people behind the wheel.

Sobering thought! (pun intended)

That would require over 41m drivers to be behind the wheel at once.

Doubtful. Try the maths again.

 

[jongood]

the next will be to remove the 50km distance limit for young HGV & PSV drivers. The latter is being done due to the advanced Driver CPC - Certificate of Professional Competance which includes a further 35 hours of driver training for post '97 drivers or online theory for those pre '97. This must be done every 5 years.

The rest is interesting, although anyone with any experience of the driver CPC will tell you that its not fit for purpose.

I actually think that anyone wishing to drive anything more than a panel van should take some extra tuition. If you wish to know why all you need to do is sit on any campsite when the afternoon arrivals are occuring.

Same for a trailer, how to reverse, the importance of attaching a tether and some basic loading and securing training would be a very good idea.

 

[Jonno1103]

That would require over 41m drivers to be behind the wheel at once.

Doubtful. Try the maths again.

I didn't do the maths the ONS did. It all seems to done vehicle miles which currently looks like around 331 billion per year.

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[SteveE]

Has anyone seen anything recent indicating whether the UK will adopt 4250kg for category B licences?

 

[Jev88]

Has anyone seen anything recent indicating whether the UK will adopt 4250kg for category B licences?

I may have misread but there is a chance the higher weight will be for ELECTRIC vehicles only?

 

[Gellyneck]

I may have misread but there is a chance the higher weight will be for ELECTRIC vehicles only?

They really haven't thought this through properly!

There's gonna be an awful lot of cables covering the country when we all plug into EHU bollards!

 

[1967bowesj]

They really haven't thought this through properly!

There's gonna be an awful lot of cables covering the country when we all plug into EHU bollards!

lol, we will throw the whole country into darkness, be like back in the good old days.
The infrastructure can hardly cope at moment, imagine if we double or treble the vehicles charging every night as people won’t want to “only” have xx miles range oh the worry!!

 

[jongood]

I may have misread but there is a chance the higher weight will be for ELECTRIC vehicles only?

The EU "guidance"? Apparently not restricted by propulsion method but its not for regular vans either, limited to Ambulances and Motorhomes.

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[DDJC]

I may have misread but there is a chance the higher weight will be for ELECTRIC vehicles only?

The (scant) info currently available would suggest otherwise. I think that the change in weight is being introduced to better accommodate the heavier weights of EVs, but won't be limited to electric propulsion.

As jongood says above, motorhomes are expressly identified as being included. This is likely because the motorhome & motorhome manufacturing lobby in Europe is far more powerful than it is here.

To be clear, there is no compulsion for UK to follow the EU directive, but it makes common sense to do so.

I hope they do, and very soon. There are many wannabe motorhomers who arrive at dealerships with a wad of cash and end up buying something that can only carry them, the dog and three shirts. This law might encourage such unscrupulous dealers to manage expectations better, and provide realistic & practical cargo weight info.

 

[MisterB]

I hope they don't remove the cheaper road fund tax if they do adopt the EU proposals

 

[Pausim]

To be clear, there is no compulsion for UK to follow the EU directive, but it makes common sense to do so.

I hope they do but don’t forget that the UK was the first to up the limit to 4250kg in 2018 but they limited it to zero emissions vehicles used for trade purposes. They may feel they have already covered the important bits and not bother with further changes.

This law might encourage such unscrupulous dealers to manage expectations better, and provide realistic & practical cargo weight info.

Again I hope it does but the cynic in me fears that some accountant driven manufacturers will just see it as an opportunity to use cheaper and heavier materials in the construction.

 

[Guigsy]

lol, we will throw the whole country into darkness, be like back in the good old days.
The infrastructure can hardly cope at moment, imagine if we double or treble the vehicles charging every night as people won’t want to “only” have xx miles range oh the worry!!

We're using about 30% less electricity than we were 20 years ago. While bits of infrastructure does need to change, the main grid has plenty of capacity.

 

[nicholsong]

Has anyone seen anything recent indicating whether the UK will adopt 4250kg for category B licences?

One cannot see the invisible.

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[hja]

There is secondary legislation going through parliament that removes the additional training required to drive a 42500 alternate fuelled van which would be 3500 except for the electric transmission. It is to facilitate logistics operators.

 

[Guigsy]

There is secondary legislation going through parliament that removes the additional training required to drive a 42500 alternate fuelled van which would be 3500 except for the electric transmission. It is to facilitate logistics operators.

The payload of a 6m ICE van plated to 3.5t is roughly the same as a ~100kWh 6m BEV van plated to 4.25t.

So even with the 4.25t uplift, potential BEV PVCs are still going to be quite payload limited.

 

[1967bowesj]

The payload of a 6m ICE van plated to 3.5t is roughly the same as a ~100kWh 6m BEV van plated to 4.25t.

So even with the 4.25t uplift, potential BEV PVCs are still going to be quite payload limited.

Wasnt that the whole point though, it keeps payload the same.
Only downside if they do not apply additional training is driver used to 3.5 ton handling gets let lose with heavier vehicle lets hope they drive sensible not like usual white van person

 

[barryd]

I hope they don't remove the cheaper road fund tax if they do adopt the EU proposals

I would think they almost certainly will remove it. Would they not just fall into the same class as sub 3.5t?

 

[DDJC]

I hope they do but don’t forget that the UK was the first to up the limit to 4250kg in 2018 but they limited it to zero emissions vehicles used for trade purposes. They may feel they have already covered the important bits and not bother with further changes.

Again I hope it does but the cynic in me fears that some accountant driven manufacturers will just see it as an opportunity to use cheaper and heavier materials in the construction.

Hope you are wrong and I am encouraged by the EU specifically naming motorhomes. The current govt rather likes the EU and might see it as a small win as they try to align more with the continent.

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[The Wino]

Wasnt that the whole point though, it keeps payload the same.
Only downside if they do not apply additional training is driver used to 3.5 ton handling gets let lose with heavier vehicle lets hope they drive sensible not like usual white van person

If they have the same modern driver aids they could be safer than some older 3500 kg vans.

 

[Steve and Denise]

I picked up the text below today from www.camping-car.org, which is dated 21st December 2024. The original text is in French.

The format of the three-part pink driving license was inconvenient and specific to France and some European countries. The new format called credit card is therefore closer to the format of the national identity card and other useful cards (health card, blue card, etc.). The new format is supplemented with various security features including watermark photography and page background. Its falsification therefore becomes much more difficult.

The new credit card format is also much less sensitive to handling accidents: rain, tearing, creasing, etc.

Finally, this format and its content are now officially recognized in all countries of the European Union and many EU partner countries (Norway for example).

But it is above all the fact of finally being able to officially drive vehicles with a GVW of 4250 kg with a B license that interests motorhome drivers. We are still far from the 7 to 8 tons authorized in most states in the United States and Canada. But it is a significant step towards the generalization of new vehicles with greater usability.

How imminent will this be as it’s now 3 months on and no change ?

 

[1967bowesj]

If they have the same modern driver aids they could be safer than some older 3500 kg vans.

Maybe some 20 year old vans, but please give some references

 

[Tony50]

Why would I need extra training ? when a truck driver moved from 16 to to 17 tonnes then 28 tonnes on 2 axle Rigid vehicle which is what a Motorhome is , plus with all the safety features vehicles have today

 

[jongood]

Why would I need extra training ? when a truck driver moved from 16 to to 17 tonnes then 28 tonnes on 2 axle Rigid vehicle which is what a Motorhome is , plus with all the safety features vehicles have today

Because it then brings more coachbuilt and A class into the equation which have different handling characteristics. Tbh are people happy that many people who by their own admission are nervous drivers are fully qualified to drive a 3500kg A class, which by default is likely also to be overweight?

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[1967bowesj]

Why would I need extra training ? when a truck driver moved from 16 to to 17 tonnes then 28 tonnes on 2 axle Rigid vehicle which is what a Motorhome is , plus with all the safety features vehicles have today

Why would you be concerned at an uplift in weight class of a B licence holder that has not driven heavy vehicles?
You obviously missed the point of the thread if you already have no restriction in weight class.