4250kg imminent?

[Jofang]

I picked up the text below today from www.camping-car.org, which is dated 21st December 2024. The original text is in French.

The format of the three-part pink driving license was inconvenient and specific to France and some European countries. The new format called credit card is therefore closer to the format of the national identity card and other useful cards (health card, blue card, etc.). The new format is supplemented with various security features including watermark photography and page background. Its falsification therefore becomes much more difficult.

The new credit card format is also much less sensitive to handling accidents: rain, tearing, creasing, etc.

Finally, this format and its content are now officially recognized in all countries of the European Union and many EU partner countries (Norway for example).

But it is above all the fact of finally being able to officially drive vehicles with a GVW of 4250 kg with a B license that interests motorhome drivers. We are still far from the 7 to 8 tons authorized in most states in the United States and Canada. But it is a significant step towards the generalization of new vehicles with greater usability.

 

[Tony50]

Because it then brings more coachbuilt and A class into the equation which have different handling characteristics. Tbh are people happy that many people who by their own admission are nervous drivers are fully qualified to drive a 3500kg A class, which by default is likely also to be overweight?

I have had A class motorhomes , coach-built never known difference in driving, in regards to nervous drivers, should they be driving vehicles that make them nervous ? that worries me if there are such people on the road.

 

[DDJC]

We're using about 30% less electricity than we were 20 years ago. While bits of infrastructure does need to change, the main grid has plenty of capacity.

You have forced me to go off topic here, but three rather significant "but"s with what you say here.

First, the cost of providing enough EV charging infrastructure in Britain, is at least £20 billion. This will provide 300,000 charge points,. The Govt is providing £1.6 billion of that. I have one at my house, but as far as I can see, no one else in my road has bothered. Perhaps they are waiting for the far more sensible hydrogen cell powered vehicles to appear.

Secondly, the main grid has not got plenty of capacity. The problem with your figure on electricity usage (which is correct), is that the UK generating capacity has reduced accordingly, with a larger amount of non-renewables being required on non-sunny and/or windless days. Also battery storage is at an unimpressive 5GW, where 50GW is what is supposedly needed by the country.

Thirdly, even with a wider infrastructure, until there is a revelation in EV charging tech, you will still have to wait 'x' hours to charge up, plus queuing time. Industry can't wait, so will continue with derv and petrol to avoid making the cost of consumables soar.

I don't think that EV is any sort of answer, for cars, trucks or motorhomes. The tech still doesn't exist to make it attractive, and probably never really will. People have busy lives and cannot afford the time it takes to wait around for electricity to work. Far better to not waste billions on EV and instead look at hydrogen. But that requires real foresight. Something absent with the global, lemming-like rush towards EV.

Anyway, back to the weight change issue, which frankly I find more interesting that the energy issue.

 

[nicholsong]

I picked up the text below today from www.camping-car.org, which is dated 21st December 2024. The original text is in French.


But it is above all the fact of finally being able to officially drive vehicles with a GVW of 4250 kg with a B license that interests motorhome drivers. We are still far from the 7 to 8 tons authorized in most states in the United States and Canada. But it is a significant step towards the generalization of new vehicles with greater usability.

Are you saying that the 4250kg on a French 'B' licence has already come into force?

 

[jongood]

Why would I need extra training ? when a truck driver moved from 16 to to 17 tonnes then 28 tonnes on 2 axle Rigid vehicle which is what a Motorhome is , plus with all the safety features vehicles have today

Is 28t a typo?

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[DDJC]

Wasnt that the whole point though, it keeps payload the same.
Only downside if they do not apply additional training is driver used to 3.5 ton handling gets let lose with heavier vehicle lets hope they drive sensible not like usual white van person

Why is extra training needed? I genuinely don't see it. The difference between a 7m long 3500kg and a 7m long 4250kg motorhome is miniscule. This weight change won't give permission to drive 7500 lorries, just this small increase.

I can drive 7500kg, but Mrs DDJC can't. However, she hauls our 7.5m 3500kg round Europe, towing a 5m 1500kg trailer. I have already put 225 tyres on, and uprated the brakes, and put semi air on the rear axle. My bus is safe to go up to 3850kg, which I will do on the day that this sensible change in weight happens.

 

[Tony50]

Why would you be concerned at an uplift in weight class of a B licence holder that has not driven heavy vehicles?
You obviously missed the point of the thread if you already have no restriction in weight class.

Have I ? I admit I haven't read all 10 pages " O dear"

 

[jongood]

I have had A class motorhomes , coach-built never known difference in driving, in regards to nervous drivers, should they be driving vehicles that make them nervous ? that worries me if there are such people on the road.

I'm a big fan of retesting/reappraisal of diving licences.
I'm sure you also know plenty of people who dont like or don't feel confident at ddriving. Do you reallybwant them to be able to drive larger vehicles?

Lets be honest, the motorhome manufacturers will not be sitting there thinking that they can just be plating their current products at workable weights, they will be redesigning to produce the biggest glitziest Mh they think they can away with at 4250kgs

 

[Tony50]

Is 28t a typo?

Very sorry should read 18 tonnes, brain dead mr this early

 

[DDJC]

I'm a big fan of retesting/reappraisal of diving licences.

Yep, so am I. Should be re-testing every ten years until the age of sixty, and then every five years, thereafter.

I'm sure you also know plenty of people who dont like or don't feel confident at ddriving. Do you reallybwant them to be able to drive larger vehicles?

But would they? Would they even want to?

In a previous life I had what are now D and C cat on my licences. I let both lapse. I have a full A class, yet I don't ride anymore. I would now, choose to not drive something so big or a big bike, because I am out of practice. Why would someone who doesn't feel safe behind a big vehicle drive one, or want to drive one?

I get your point, but people don't deliberately do something that scares them!

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[Pausim]

A car and trailer rig of 4250kg is allowed so why should we not be allowed to drive a safer 4250kg single motorhome?

 

[Tony50]

I'm a big fan of retesting/reappraisal of diving licences.
I'm sure you also know plenty of people who dont like or don't feel confident at ddriving. Do you reallybwant them to be able to drive larger vehicles?

Lets be honest, the motorhome manufacturers will not be sitting there thinking that they can just be plating their current products at workable weights, they will be redesigning to produce the biggest glitziest Mh they think they can away with at 4250kgs

I doubt at another 750 kgs you would notice it, if I wasn't confident I would not be driving ,that's not to say I never make bad driving mistakes.

 

[barryd]

Why is extra training needed? I genuinely don't see it. The difference between a 7m long 3500kg and a 7m long 4250kg motorhome is miniscule. This weight change won't give permission to drive 7500 lorries, just this small increase.

I can drive 7500kg, but Mrs DDJC can't. However, she hauls our 7.5m 3500kg round Europe, towing a 5m 1500kg trailer. I have already put 225 tyres on, and uprated the brakes, and put semi air on the rear axle. My bus is safe to go up to 3850kg, which I will do on the day that this sensible change in weight happens.

I would think a 4.25t van thats not overloaded and underweight is a lot safer to drive and easier than a 3.5t van thats close to the limit or even slightly over. I can kind of testify to that really although its not a like for like comparison. My old 1996 Kontiki on an Alko chassis was 3.5t and it was always loaded to the max with a scooter on the back and all our stuff. I always though it handled ok but would get blown about and a bit unstable at times on the motorway if you passed or got passed by say a coach or heavy vehicle. The new (to us) 2015 4.25t Esprit has a huge payload and is unlikely to ever get overweight but its way way more stable, better brakes, bigger wheels, better suspension and totally planted. Granted there is nearly two decades between them which of course will make a difference.

 

[Jon Stewart]

I've read that the EU brought in this change mainly for the heavier weight of electric ambulances. The motorhome fraternity in Europe has also be asking for this increase, as a 3500kg motorhome can legally pull a 750kg trailer = 4250kg, which is more of a handful than just a motorhome at 4250kg, so it makes sense to raise the limit.

Gross train weight is a completely separate calculation and value on your weight plate.

Nothing to do with this legislation.

 

[SVMC15]

How many of those wanting testing for the small uplift actually did a test in the first place? A lot of those driving with a C1 licence never took a test for it, they were given it and can drive up to 7500kg!

I don't see a problem at all in the uplift, if it actually happens in the UK.

As for driving standards in general and the talk of retesting.........

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[Jofang]

To my knowledge the current situation is that the 4250kg limit has been approved by the EU but not yet adopted by France. I believe Spain has already adopted this rule, but I stand to be corrected.

 

[jongood]

A car and trailer rig of 4250kg is allowed so why should we not be allowed to drive a safer 4250kg single motorhome?

But that would become 4250kgs +trailer

I'm really not getting the resistance to a bit more training. I have a C+E from 1991 and until recently I regularly drove 44t but would I discount the benefit of a critical eye or a new technique? No I wouldn't.

 

[jongood]

Yep, so am I. Should be re-testing every ten years until the age of sixty, and then every five years, thereafter.



But would they? Would they even want to?

In a previous life I had what are now D and C cat on my licences. I let both lapse. I have a full A class, yet I don't ride anymore. I would now, choose to not drive something so big or a big bike, because I am out of practice. Why would someone who doesn't feel safe behind a big vehicle drive one, or want to drive one?

I get your point, but people don't deliberately do something that scares them!

I have encountered plenty of couples in Motorhomes where its been the wife's dream and she's persuaded her husband against his better judgement.

 

[Pausim]

But that would become 4250kgs +trailer

I would happily trade the +trailer for the extra payload.

 

[DDJC]

A car and trailer rig of 4250kg is allowed so why should we not be allowed to drive a safer 4250kg single motorhome?

Agree. Our rig weight is 5 tonne, and 12m long. Mrs DDJC can drive it. But put an ebike in the garage and take the trailer off and we are 7m and overweight by twenty kilos. And then she can't drive it. Just daft.

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[DDJC]

I have encountered plenty of couples in Motorhomes where its been the wife's dream and she's persuaded her husband against his better judgement.

If I was the husband, I'd say "Here's the keys love, you're driving!"

 

[DDJC]

I would think a 4.25t van thats not overloaded and underweight is a lot safer to drive and easier than a 3.5t van thats close to the limit or even slightly over. I can kind of testify to that really although its not a like for like comparison. My old 1996 Kontiki on an Alko chassis was 3.5t and it was always loaded to the max with a scooter on the back and all our stuff. I always though it handled ok but would get blown about and a bit unstable at times on the motorway if you passed or got passed by say a coach or heavy vehicle. The new (to us) 2015 4.25t Esprit has a huge payload and is unlikely to ever get overweight but its way way more stable, better brakes, bigger wheels, better suspension and totally planted. Granted there is nearly two decades between them which of course will make a difference.

I'd agree. I have already put on the physical adaptations (tyres, brakes and semi-air) that are needed to get up-plated, and my MH chassis can max out at 3850, which is more than we need. I also agree that it is much more stable on bigger boots and pumped up axle airbags. All I need is for this law change and I am away.

 

[Tony50]

All this about retesting I doubt many of my age would pass the theory test, let alone anything else, that's not to say you are not safe on the road, the actual driving test today is to say you have reached a certain level of competency, not saying you are a good driver or brilliant driver, also a good driver is one that avoids an accident not one that says that's not my fault, most annoying thing I find is people joining a dual or motorway not getting up to speed on slip road to speed of traffic on main road and sometimes forcing people over when it's difficult.

 

[DDJC]

But that would become 4250kgs +trailer

I'm really not getting the resistance to a bit more training. I have a C+E from 1991 and until recently I regularly drove 44t but would I discount the benefit of a critical eye or a new technique? No I wouldn't.

I'd love to agree, but we have three issues.

One, it would cost more than a grand for a course and test.
Two, the law is likely to change so is a waste of money
Three, Mrs DDJC doesn't want to do another test (medical reasons)

I know we can't expect the law to personalise itself just for us, so we wait, relatively impatiently, for the Govt to implement the change in line with the EU directive.

 

[Markman]

They are weight related to a degree

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64ca1f035c2e6f0013e8d967/v149x1-rates-of-vehicle-tax.pdf

Cant understand how MHs over £40k dont pay ADR, but not complaining

Wow, what a complex table. So many vehicle options, so many different rates. I thought there'd be 3 or 4, not 50!

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[Jonno1103]

I know many motorhome owners with grandfather rights driving larger motorhomes like they're behind the wheel of a car. No perception of the weight behind them pushing forward when the brakes are applied and zero concept of safe overtaking or turning at junctions.

I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles across many, many countries - I've just spent 3 days driving a Roller Team from the factory in Poggibonsi to the U.K., but still learnt a heck of a lot completing my C1 last year. They teach you in a 7500kg truck not a 4250kg or 4500kg motorhome. It's a big difference, you gain a lot of knowledge.

 

[DDJC]

Are you saying that the 4250kg on a French 'B' licence has already come into force?

I have done a scout around the French government websites and no, it hasn't changed yet. But then, I am not even sure that the EU directive has been fully ratified yet. I don't think it has, but am happy to be corrected. However, there may be some member states who decide to make the change nationally before, in spite of, or to pre-empt the EU directive. Nothing to stop them doing that.

An EU directive is an instruction to member states that they should change their national regs to align with the directive. However, as with many EU directives, member states sometimes do not necessarily hurry to do so.

What is clear though is that once a EU directive is in place, no member state can forbid or prohibit instances of it, inside their border.

This seems a bit confusing, so to explain, if the EU directive is in place for the B class licence to go to 4250, then France (who hasn't changed its law on this) cannot forbid non-French drivers from driving 4250kg sized vehicles, driven by someone on a B licence. The actual effect would be that other drivers can do so, but French drivers cannot drive 4250kg vehicles on a French B licence in France! But bizarrely, can do so outside France!!

So, I can't think that any member state is going to drag their heels on this, but who knows?

The key question for us is that will the UK government follow suit? And if so, how long will they take to do it? I doubt that it will be a priority with all the other things going on.

 

[DT]

IMO too many rules and regulations in our country already. Someone gets killed its very tragic but then we seem to need a law, a ban, fencing, etc etc. What happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions. Sorry for the gripe on a Saturday morning.

 

[hja]

IMO too many rules and regulations in our country already. Someone gets killed its very tragic but then we seem to need a law, a ban, fencing, etc etc. What happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions. Sorry for the gripe on a Saturday morning.

Yes, but some of those extra rules etc are to stop the irresponsible killing the innocent.

 

[jongood]

All this about retesting I doubt many of my age would pass the theory test, let alone anything else, that's not to say you are not safe on the road, the actual driving test today is to say you have reached a certain level of competency, not saying you are a good driver or brilliant driver, also a good driver is one that avoids an accident not one that says that's not my fault, most annoying thing I find is people joining a dual or motorway not getting up to speed on slip road to speed of traffic on main road and sometimes forcing people over when it's difficult.

I see it as an assesment with an instructor and further action if required. Its ridiculous that I passed my HGV 34 years ago and have had no further assessment other than driver CPC which does nothing for driving ability.

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[cyberyacht]

Wow, what a complex table. So many vehicle options, so many different rates. I thought there'd be 3 or 4, not 50!

Governments rarely subscribe to the KISS principle. It keeps the and the civil service in a job