Fuel was dearer in the '60s in relation to the average wage.
2030 no new diesel vans. What's your plan?
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Yes I accept lithium is the way forward for a lot of stuff, but please don’t promote it as ‘green’. It sounds so far away from that to me.
Cheshirecat57
Free Member
My plan is to buy 15 Diesel vans and store them for future use
great planIve got 2 brand new Philips Laserdisc players in my loft- not for sale
A local housing association installed air source heat pumps and double glazing when they refurbished their rented housing. The local news outlets were inundated with complaints about the cost of running the units. I think most were on those prepaid electric meters and found that the heat pumps were using up all their credit ?
Why are we not promoting the use of LPG conversion as a fuel, is it a dirty fuel ??
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It's a fossil fuel like petrol and diesel and produces co2. It does burn cleaner than those two fuels though.
The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction
As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own rightwww.wired.co.uk
That is giving the worst case examples. If you do the same for oil and do a comparison...
Here is an article about the damage oil does. If you read the Lithium one please read this one. Then tell me which one you prefer.
National Geographic
Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.
As for the article Coolcats posted a link to. Yes, if done badly Lithium mining can be bad. But there is no need to do it badly.
Their point on Cobalt and Nickel is correct. Cobalt is problematic which is why most manufacturers are developing Cobalt free batteries.
Nickel is a tough one as it needs to be mined in the traditional way, but again this can be done cleanly.
Clean up operations from lithium mining and Nickel mining are a magnitude easier to do than cleaning up an oil spill.
The point worth mentioning is that the CO2 pollution from burning fossil fuels causes the acidification of the ocean which is a global problem and will kill whole eco systems world wide. We have to stop mining fossil fuels and pumping CO2 into the atmosphere to prevent global issues.
We then need to work hard on making mining operations for Lithium, Nickel, Copper, Aluminium cleaner on the local level.
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Yes, It chucks out massive quantities of NOx and CO2.
This made me laugh. As we have been talking about wind I thought it was appropriate 
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Investors are rushing to put money into offshore wind even with a strike price of £39.65/MWh which is extremely low.
electrek.co
Worth noting that the wholesale price of electricity is on a downward trend since peaking at £67.00 in 2018. This year it has varied between £24 and £35.
www.sserenewables.com
So this project will provide 3.6 GW and cost $8 billion and will all be completed by 2026.
Meanwhile, Hinkley Point C is planned to provide 3.2 GW of nuclear power, cost $22+ billion and has been delayed again to at least 2028.
World's largest offshore wind farm secures $8bn investment
Dogger Bank, which will be the world's largest offshore wind farm, secures an $8 billion investment from oil giant Equinor and energy company SSE.
electrek.co
Worth noting that the wholesale price of electricity is on a downward trend since peaking at £67.00 in 2018. This year it has varied between £24 and £35.
SSE Renewables secures 2.2GW of new offshore CfD contracts | SSE Renewables
www.sserenewables.com
So this project will provide 3.6 GW and cost $8 billion and will all be completed by 2026.
Meanwhile, Hinkley Point C is planned to provide 3.2 GW of nuclear power, cost $22+ billion and has been delayed again to at least 2028.
And if you think offshore wind isn't pulling it's weight.
www.carbonbrief.org
Analysis: Record-low price for UK offshore wind cheaper than existing gas plants by 2023
The UK is to get its first subsidy-free offshore windfarms after the government awarded contracts today for nearly 6 gigawatts (GW) of capacity, at prices below those it expects on the open market.
Terry
LIFE MEMBER
Where is all the basic stuff to make batteries coming from since we are almost at capacity, assuming it can be increased. At the moment almost 2.6 million leccy vehicles against 95 million vehicles made ..... that's only cars .....me thinks a lot more batts needed
I can understand that salt water is in plentiful supply but what about nickel and other stuff ?
I can understand that salt water is in plentiful supply but what about nickel and other stuff ?
Coolcats
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Lets start with petrochemicals wherever they come from we know its bad and James lovelock has been telling us this since the 60's and its all well documented and I don't think most people would argue.That is giving the worst case examples. If you do the same for oil and do a comparison...
Here is an article about the damage oil does. If you read the Lithium one please read this one. Then tell me which one you prefer.
National Geographic
Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.www.nationalgeographic.co.uk
As for the article Coolcats posted a link to. Yes, if done badly Lithium mining can be bad. But there is no need to do it badly.
Their point on Cobalt and Nickel is correct. Cobalt is problematic which is why most manufacturers are developing Cobalt free batteries.
Nickel is a tough one as it needs to be mined in the traditional way, but again this can be done cleanly.
Clean up operations from lithium mining and Nickel mining are a magnitude easier to do than cleaning up an oil spill.
The point worth mentioning is that the CO2 pollution from burning fossil fuels causes the acidification of the ocean which is a global problem and will kill whole eco systems world wide. We have to stop mining fossil fuels and pumping CO2 into the atmosphere to prevent global issues.
We then need to work hard on making mining operations for Lithium, Nickel, Copper, Aluminium cleaner on the local level.
Mineral extraction is a dirty business and good luck with trying to clean up an industry when a lot of it comes from countries we have no control over
I don't have an answer but all mineral extraction destroys ecosystems let alone the future battery wastes
Just a little disingenuousInvestors are rushing to put money into offshore wind even with a strike price of £39.65/MWh which is extremely low.
World's largest offshore wind farm secures $8bn investment
Dogger Bank, which will be the world's largest offshore wind farm, secures an $8 billion investment from oil giant Equinor and energy company SSE.
Worth noting that the wholesale price of electricity is on a downward trend since peaking at £67.00 in 2018. This year it has varied between £24 and £35.
SSE Renewables secures 2.2GW of new offshore CfD contracts | SSE Renewables
So this project will provide 3.6 GW and cost $8 billion and will all be completed by 2026.
Meanwhile, Hinkley Point C is planned to provide 3.2 GW of nuclear power, cost $22+ billion and has been delayed again to at least 2028.
Just a teeny bit disingenuous, we know that installed capacity for wind means at best about 50% actual capacity, whereas nuclear installed capacity is actually that. It still makes nuclear more expensive and decommissioning cost is likely to be horrendous. However I look on nuclear as a necessary guarantee against the unpredictability of most renewables.Investors are rushing to put money into offshore wind even with a strike price of £39.65/MWh which is extremely low.
World's largest offshore wind farm secures $8bn investment
Dogger Bank, which will be the world's largest offshore wind farm, secures an $8 billion investment from oil giant Equinor and energy company SSE.
Worth noting that the wholesale price of electricity is on a downward trend since peaking at £67.00 in 2018. This year it has varied between £24 and £35.
SSE Renewables secures 2.2GW of new offshore CfD contracts | SSE Renewables
So this project will provide 3.6 GW and cost $8 billion and will all be completed by 2026.
Meanwhile, Hinkley Point C is planned to provide 3.2 GW of nuclear power, cost $22+ billion and has been delayed again to at least 2028.
It could be argued that the cost of energy storage ( if required) should be factored in as mitigation of that unpredictability.
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If the nuclear plant ever gets built it will be too little too late. I am more interested in the SMR especially if Rolls Royce produces it.
Did you note that this is actually more offshore wind power in 2-3 years than the nuclear will deliver speculatively by 2028?. In the time it takes to build this one mega nuclear plant we will have double or perhaps triple the wind power generated so even at the 50% power factor we would have more than the nuclear provides. The difference between 8B and 22B is more than enough to build a lot of batteries, pressurised air and hydrogen powered backup...
Not disingenuous at all I didn't think. A direct comparison of capacity, cost and time lines is perfectly valid.
However, I am with you on nuclear. I just disagree that these massive plants are the answer, SMR plants seem the right move to me but I suspect either way they will come too late. Things are moving extremely quickly now.
Mineral extraction can have a very localised impact, unlike oil production which does global damage.
No one is denying that there are issues in the extraction industries but they are under immense pressure to improve now and we are starting to make slow progress.
I am honestly not concerned about Lithium, I do have some reservations on nickel, copper and aluminium.,
As for future battery wastes. This is not going to be an issue.
The problem before was the small quantities of waste batteries and the small size of the cells (phones) made them uneconomical to recycle.
However, with the scale of car batteries they will be close to 100% recyclable.
The bulk of these batteries are copper and Aluminium with a small amount of Lithium and trace amounts of other valuable chemicals.
There are some really clever people working on this. One of them said something along the lines of... It is cheaper to recycle batteries in bulk than it is to dig fresh metals out of the ground. As scale it is a no brainer.
Coolcats
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Even if mineral extraction is as you say (which nearly always is not) The damage is still done to the Enviroment particularly open cast mines. With the shear volume of minerals required to replace ice vehicles it is still environmentally damaging and not something that is clean and green.
As I say I do not have the answers but every hole dug for minerals damages the Enviroment and many countries do not give a fig about what is destroyed.
Coolcats
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Let’s see what transpires
Even your existence is damaging to the environment, the best thing we can do is stop breeding completely. I say that tongue in cheek. But it is ALL relative. There is absolutely NOTHING we do that has zero impact on the environment. It is all relative.
Green is not a term I like to use, but am forced into it by the environmentalist hijacking. For instance I prefer the term clean hydrogen to green hydrogen. But because green hydrogen has become a thing that is what we have to call it. However it is all relative.
Hydrogen itself is not perfect, you need to generate the electric to hydrolyse it somehow, Wind is the cheapest and greenest but even wind requires concrete, steel, copper, aluminium and much more.
Do not let perfect be the enemy of good. There is absolutely no perfect solution that gets rid of all damage.
My preference is to localise harm where it can be managed and minimise global harm.
I prefer not to dig stuff out of the ground then burn it, but I don't mind digging stuff out of the ground if it allows us to stop burning other stuff that is dug out of the ground.
I prefer technologies that are proven, fast to deploy and are economical to those that are of huge cost and take forever to develop.
I prefer to look to physics and do basic fundamental calculations to see which tech is most the most suitable solution.
I do not look for perfect only a large scale improvement relative to the cost.
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Coolcats
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In that case we agree Lithium and mineral extraction is environmentally damaging we will run out of these precious materials which is one reason mining the moon and other celestial bodies is seen as one alternative. It’s a lot of material when a car needs half a tonne of battery and heavy goods vehicles require so much more, let alone the precious matilerials within electric motors.
The localised harm you mention may be for now just as in the early days of the petrochemical industry who would have thought it would turn in to such a huge industry it has become. Another question is which locality should this harm be done ?
As James lovelock said humans need to party whilst they can.
As I say I do not pretend to have answers let’s see what happens.
We won't run out of these "precious materials" Lithium is abundant. We won't be mining the moon or other celestial bodies for a very long time. The earth cannot wait that long.
We know how much damage is done by each respectively per ton. Just one oil tar mine in Canada is over 500 miles of devastation. The Escondida copper mine in Chile which produces 9% of the worlds copper is under 10 miles on it's longest side.
Copper, Nickel and Lithium mining has environmental impacts in a very small area close relative to oil.
I don't know all the answers. But I can see the strong evidence that EV's, offshore wind, SMR nuclear, hydrogen, gridscale storage are all part of the answer. The other two options are do nothing and watch the earth slowly heat up, or stop all CO2 emissions without trying anything else and watch the global economy burn and people die from going back to a middle ages style of agronomic living.
its so funny isnt it, we are not contempt with destroying the very planet we exist on, no we are planning at mining the moon as well, unbelievable.
Lets ruin a few more planets whilst humans exist too.
Its increcible the destruction and carnage that humans have inflicted on earth, how many species will be wiped out, mammals, insects, ecosystems, rainforests, the future is very bleak indeed.
OP
OP
Jim
Ringleader
Jeremy Clarkson blames the internet, He equates it to Cyberdyne System's Skynet, except a droid isn't going to jump time and kill it's inventor, so we're stuffed.
Coolcats
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Agreed so whilst here let’s be kind to one another make what we have last as long as we can (no new iPhone every year), my home TV is around 15 years old make our gardens as nature friendly as possible. We only have. Small garden yet it’s filled with birds and
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This map graphically shows that there is little of the earth land surface that has not been changed in one way or another by mankind
www.visualcapitalist.com
Visualizing the Human Impact on the Earth’s Surface
Nearly 95% of the Earth’s surface shows some form of human modification, with 85% bearing evidence of multiple forms of human impact.
www.visualcapitalist.com
OP
OP
Jim
Ringleader
Tad ironic to be sat in a diesel motorhome using electricity powered machines to browse and electricity powered internet, moaning about what man has done to the planet. It's not man, ITS YOU!
Agreed so whilst here let’s be kind to one another make what we have last as long as we can (no new iPhone every year), my home TV is around 15 years old make our gardens as nature friendly as possible. We only have. Small garden yet it’s filled with birds and
Fully agree, this is ours, native hedge, Rowan, Silver Birch, Oak, Field Maple, wild flowers.
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Tad ironic to be sat in a diesel motorhome using electricity powered machines to browse and electricity powered internet, moaning about what man has done to the planet. It's not man, ITS YOU!
In some respects yes but going away in the van CLs no electric, solar, no heating at home or car use, van heats in no time.
Offset by planting trees, native hedges, wild flowers.
I've had a lifetime of fat arsed councillors not caring about the environment, right from the 70s, allowing nature reserves to be destroyed, huge housing developments to be built, concreting over everything, it's almost too late now.
OP
OP
Jim
Ringleader
Of course people do their bit, plant a tree, sort their rubbish, but we're all part of the problem. We choose our lifestyle, but blame 'Man' as if he isn't us.
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