Whitby Marina carpark. (1 Viewer)

[Barclaybasher]

The law does need changing, sometimes we need to park and rest, not 'set up camp'.

Facilities are not necessarily needed, they can be found elsewhere.

Overnight parking/resting/sleeping could be limited to 24 hours, no return within 48, or whatever to prevent camping/long stay.

All carparks are monitored for compliance (meters) and wardens to check tickets.

Carpark owners will benefit, we will benefit but to do this the law (1960 Act) has to change

..

 

[chaser]

So if you don't like a law just break it......the prisons are full of people with that attitude!!
Sorry if you don't like it, but apart from writing a website with a load of links to council sites what has he changed.
You are insulting someone who has done more to research and find ways of changing or working within the current laws than anyone on this forum or possibly anywhere.

Your attitude stinks, if you want to change things then do something about it rather than moaning, whinging and criticizing people that have attempted to clarify the situation as it stands and change things for the better.

Like banging your head against a thick stone wall

 

[chaser]

Sorry if you don't like it but apart from writing a website with a load of links to council sites what has he changed.

 

[2657]

Maybe when I've retired and I have all the extra time on my hands to write email after email to councillors, mp's etc then I will do it but realistically I don't have the time or the interest to do that. I may comment on these threads regarding restrictions etc because the council and goverments attitudes tend to piss me off full stop because they are constantly trying to curb people's freedom and I'm tired of it. But generally I don't moan about not being able to park in these places as it often does not affect me I WILL always find somewhere to park and camp for free I have done for years. I may have to adapt how I do that but I will always do it.

But it's very true as @Barclaybasher said and I've said it several times myself in this and other threads there are laws that frankly have to be broken because we were never consulted in their creation.

I'm not religious but I try to live by some morals as in I don't commit murder grand theft or rape etc ....i tend to live as a fairly decent person.

Parking my camper somewhere that isn't a designated camp site I don't believe to be a crime so my conscience is clear.


I also break the speed limit at times and other minor indiscretions ....im not a saint


But I do wonder sometimes at some of the holier than thou attitudes some folk have on here .....cause I bet if I followed you about for a few weeks I'd spot the things you don't do right in life.

Strangely I agree with a lot of what you say, I am no saint nor do I have an holier than thou attitude,there are many laws that I would like to change and indeed I have broken many of them when I consider that doing so affects no one but myself but if caught I would accept the consequences.

Most of all I am a pragmatist and make the best out of situations that exist, not as I may wish them to exist.

The law is there as an arbiter of right and wrong the definitions of which vary greatly from person to person, without them we have anarchy.

I object to people vilifying someone for pointing out the situation as it stands as if that person created the situation.

 

[2657]

Sorry if you don't like it but apart from writing a website with a load of links to council sites what has he changed.

Probably a lot more than you for a start!

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[GJH]

It is broken in the sense a motorhome is not a caravan and needs that section changed.

The law does need changing, sometimes we need to park and rest, not 'set up camp'.

Facilities are not necessarily needed, they can be found elsewhere.

Overnight parking/resting/sleeping could be limited to 24 hours, no return within 48, or whatever to prevent camping/long stay.

All carparks are monitored for compliance (meters) and wardens to check tickets.

Carpark owners will benefit, we will benefit but to do this the law (1960 Act) has to change

..

Do something constructive about it then. Draft what you think are the necessary changes to the legislation and lobby parliament to try to achieve the changes.
Complaining on a motorhome forum will not change the law and neither will relying on people who see no need to change it.

The only way to achieve change is for those who want it to put in the effort. I'll not 'bate me breath.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Do something constructive about it then. Draft what you think are the necessary changes to the legislation and lobby parliament to try to achieve the changes.

You know I have, writing to Pauline Latham MP and Transport Minister Chris Grayling MP

The letter was about overnight parking for Trucks and other large vehicles (MHs)

I'm not holding my breath but I believe the changes have to be driven by Central Government, not LA's

Travelers/Gypsies did that, why not everyone else?

 

[Northernraider]

Strangely I agree with a lot of what you say, I am no saint nor do I have an holier than thou attitude,there are many laws that I would like to change and indeed I have broken many of them when I consider that doing so affects no one but myself but if caught I would accept the consequences.

Most of all I am a pragmatist and make the best out of situations that exist, not as I may wish them to exist.

The law is there as an arbiter of right and wrong the definitions of which vary greatly from person to person, without them we have anarchy.

I object to people vilifying someone for pointing out the situation as it stands as if that person created the situation.

I certainly don't mean to villify @GJH I appreciate whatever he has done in the past. I've said it before we simply don't agree on a lot of stuff , I do see it from his point of view at times but what's done is done , personally I believe it's the sheer growth in the amount of motorhomes that's caused the restrictions but I believe the council's lack foresight in seeing that happen over years and the fact that it will get worse as yet more motorhomes get on the road.

It isn't just a UK thing there's more and more of them abroad too but at least the council's and communities here are making attempts to improve facilities for them.

Countries that are considered behind the UK.

We've been round all the houses on this forum in different threads where every excuse has been thrown up from funding to not strong enough tarmac etc it simply doesn't add up.
There's plenty car parks in the UK that if the caravan act was adapted and the public toilets weren't closed that a few bays could be provided for motorhomes and a dump drain and tap could be put in.

All the red tape and excuses regarding ridiculous prices quoted to do this is just typical UK.

That's where the crime is ...that we in the UK are so used to this bull that we swallow it without question.

It CAN be done

But when you say that you just get the same answers of write to councils etc which we all know the odd individual here and there has no chance.
What would have an impact is if there was some sort of solidarity between motorhomers and a constructive demonstration or petition etc was done but that's not even possible on here because too many are just willing to accept the changes can't be made or they personally don't need them.

 

[PeteH]

"Change" Per se, usually only happens when a large enough section of the public sees the need AND lobby`s. The current incumbents sufficiently to cause them embarrassment or the possibilty of "lost" seats. Otherwise it takes various forms of "Civil Disobedience" Ranging from pure lobbying to a 40 years campaign of Violence. To change government minds.

 

[Northernraider]

Do something constructive about it then. Draft what you think are the necessary changes to the legislation and lobby parliament to try to achieve the changes.
Complaining on a motorhome forum will not change the law and neither will relying on people who see no need to change it.

The only way to achieve change is for those who want it to put in the effort. I'll not 'bate me breath.

No disrespect Graham but I have not the slightest idea how to do that.
I just see red tape and closed minds wherever I look

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[GJH]

No disrespect Graham but I have not the slightest idea how to do that.
I just see red tape and closed minds wherever I look

Every one of us, throughout our lives, comes across situations where we haven't the slightest idea how to proceed.
We then have a choice - do nothing or, provided we feel strongly enough, put in the effort to learn how to proceed.
Take the first option and, by default, it is an acceptance of the status quo.

 

[GJH]

(snip for brevity).
What would have an impact is if there was some sort of solidarity between motorhomers and a constructive demonstration or petition etc was done but that's not even possible on here because too many are just willing to accept the changes can't be made or they personally don't need them.

That hits the nail on the head. Those who say they want change are a minority and, to achieve their aim, need to garner more support.
However, unless somebody (or some group) is prepared to stand up and put in the work to achieve that support, nothing will happen.
The ball is firmly in the court of those who say they want change to act because nobody is going to do it for them.

 

[GJH]

You know I have, writing to Pauline Latham MP and Transport Minister Chris Grayling MP

The letter was about overnight parking for Trucks and other large vehicles (MHs)

I'm not holding my breath but I believe the changes have to be driven by Central Government, not LA's

Travelers/Gypsies did that, why not everyone else?

Yes, I have seen your letter, requesting Grayling's views, but that isn't what I meant.
The letter expresses your point of view but it provides no evidence (e.g. as to the extent which sleeping conditions put people at risk or measurable effect providing extra sleeping areas might have). That being the case Grayling can easily turn round and say that the evidence his department already has shows that existing facilities are sufficient or that is it up to individuals/companies to do something about it.
That is why I said draft the necessary changes (which implies detail) and then lobby to achieve political support.

Your example of gypsies and travellers is a good example of what I mean. They didn't sit back but took advantage of the racial equality/human rights policies of New Labour at the time.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Ghandi, Mandela were "terrorists", so was/is Gerry Adams and yet he's now an elected MP .
Alan Turing suffered greatly because his behaviour was contrary to the law... and received a postumous apology.
The suffragettes deliberately broke the law in order to change it.

Just a few examples of when the public deliberately broke the law to change it.

But I hardly think a disparate minority group of motorhomes will achieve cohesion or gather sufficient public support to get the law changed, when the vast majority seem to be quite comfortable with the provisions provided.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Yes, I have seen your letter, requesting Grayling's views, but that isn't what I meant.
The letter expresses your point of view but it provides no evidence (e.g. as to the extent which sleeping conditions put people at risk or measurable effect providing extra sleeping areas might have). That being the case Grayling can easily turn round and say that the evidence his department already has shows that existing facilities are sufficient or that is it up to individuals/companies to do something about it.
That is why I said draft the necessary changes (which implies detail) and then lobby to achieve political support.

Your example of gypsies and travellers is a good example of what I mean. They didn't sit back but took advantage of the racial equality/human rights policies of New Labour at the time.

I've learned that one letter will not sort anything, just hope to begin a dialogue...............

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[sdc77]

Which IMV would negate the need/reason for having the M-H, in the first place

Why? It's a day out. We only take the MH if it's of some use to us.
A day out there doesnt require using the motorhome.
Parkings rubbish for motorhomes ... plenty of car parking tho.
I'm sure we will put as much into the local economy as we would if we'd taken the van.
It's that choice thing again

 

[funflair]

So to move the discussion away from Whitby at least geographically anyway, I notice that Winchester allows overnight parking on their Worthy Road coach park for a maximum of 48 hours I can only assume that the town council and parking authorities have seen the need and applied for the relevant planning to allow this so it can be done, I will go and spend my £7 to park and will go and spend money in Winchester as well no doubt.

Martin

 

[GJH]

I've learned that one letter will not sort anything, just hope to begin a dialogue...............

Then I wish you luck.

 

[funflair]

Why? It's a day out. We only take the MH if it's of some use to us.
A day out there doesnt require using the motorhome.
Parkings rubbish for motorhomes ... plenty of car parking tho.
I'm sure we will put as much into the local economy as we would if we'd taken the van.
It's that choice thing again

I think Whitby will be a lot better off financially is you do take the car, usually a motorhome will have only two people and take up at least two car spaces, a car will very often have a family or at least 4 people so potentially 4 times the spending power.

Martin

 

[chaser]

to get back to the origanal post, the only problem that needs changing in the whole country not just whitby, is this stupid idea of parking on a car park makes it a camp site, a campsite is where you get your tent out and your bbq and table and chaires and go to the toilets and showers, and sit about having a beer , kids ride bikes and play football.
None of this would you do while parked on a car park which is there to park, if you want to get your head down whats the difference to lieing accross the back seats of a car or in a motorhome.
Fine if it spoils somones view stop parking in the day although looking at cars cant be a much better view and allow night parking when its dark, spoiling no ones view.
surely that small detail wouldnt take much changing.

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[Northernraider]

Every one of us, throughout our lives, comes across situations where we haven't the slightest idea how to proceed.
We then have a choice - do nothing or, provided we feel strongly enough, put in the effort to learn how to proceed.
Take the first option and, by default, it is an acceptance of the status quo.

Ghandi, Mandela were "terrorists", so was/is Gerry Adams and yet he's now an elected MP .
Alan Turing suffered greatly because his behaviour was contrary to the law... and received a postumous apology.
The suffragettes deliberately broke the law in order to change it.

Just a few examples of when the public deliberately broke the law to change it.

But I hardly think a disparate minority group of motorhomes will achieve cohesion or gather sufficient public support to get the law changed, when the vast majority seem to be quite comfortable with the provisions provided.

And that's why I can only do what I do already and wait till more people get fed up with campsites.

Judging by the increase in off site parking it's getting there.

 

[Northernraider]

While we are at it we should also tell the stupid bloody goverment we want our roads and our cars to be the same as the rest of the sensible world and be left hand drive.

Just sitting here people watching and thinking almost every other nationality in the world can go anywhere and fit straight in to the driving. ..they can also import and export any vehicles around the globe with ease.

Meanwhile we are the odd ones out again


Stoopid britain

 

[funflair]

Original quote clipped,

to get back to the origanal post, the only problem that needs changing in the whole country not just whitby, is this stupid idea of parking on a car park makes it a camp site, .

Which as I am sure you know it doesn't, but parking a caravan or motor caravan with the intention of sleeping (overnight) eating drink using toilet shower heating etc etc surely does and that is the problem we are up against.

Martin

 

[funflair]

While we are at it we should also tell the stupid bloody goverment we want our roads and our cars to be the same as the rest of the sensible world and be left hand drive.

Just sitting here people watching and thinking almost every other nationality in the world can go anywhere and fit straight in to the driving. ..they can also import and export any vehicles around the globe with ease.

Meanwhile we are the odd ones out again


Stoopid britain

Vehicles are available in the UK with the steering wheel on either side so you do have the choice.

Martin

 

[Northernraider]

to get back to the origanal post, the only problem that needs changing in the whole country not just whitby, is this stupid idea of parking on a car park makes it a camp site, a campsite is where you get your tent out and your bbq and table and chaires and go to the toilets and showers, and sit about having a beer , kids ride bikes and play football.
None of this would you do while parked on a car park which is there to park, if you want to get your head down whats the difference to lieing accross the back seats of a car or in a motorhome.
Fine if it spoils somones view stop parking in the day although looking at cars cant be a much better view and allow night parking when its dark, spoiling no ones view.
surely that small detail wouldnt take much changing.

Problem is some people do just that sadly

I've seen folk sitting out in chairs in a carpark beneath houses and flats etc

Different when out in the sticks but a town centre carpark isn't for sitting out sunbathing

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[Northernraider]

Original quote clipped,



Which as I am sure you know it doesn't, but parking a caravan or motor caravan with the intention of sleeping (overnight) eating drink using toilet shower heating etc etc surely does and that is the problem we are up against.

Martin

Inside the van I don't think it does. Yes the legislation disagrees with me but if you are inside the vehicle it shouldn't matter what you are doing.

If you are outside cooking etc then yes but inside and contained it shouldn't matter

 

[Northernraider]

Vehicles are available in the UK with the steering wheel on either side so you do have the choice.

Martin

Yes but you can't just drive on the other side of the road which is the main issue

 

[Langtoftlad]

And that's why I can only do what I do already and wait till more people get fed up with campsites.

I'm afraid that an individual breaking the law is just a criminal... it needs a significant grouping with the same agenda to create a movement powerful enough to change the law.
I'm afraid I don't see your actions as a political agenda.

Judging by the increase in off site parking it's getting there.

Is that a reality or just some p*s's poor journalism stoking up middle england outrage?
...and even if true, is it due to the antithipy against organised commercial sites, or a result of more motorhomes being bought, or as a result of the lack of affordable housing?

To my mind, there is a world of difference between your modus operandi of staying a night or two off road where vans are tolerated or in some wilderness location, and those that seek the right to park in a town centre, or in a residential area for days/weeks on end.
I don't recall reading in your blog about pitching your van in an urban centre?

 

[Northernraider]

I'm afraid that an individual breaking the law is just a criminal... it needs a significant grouping with the same agenda to create a movement powerful enough to change the law.
I'm afraid I don't see your actions as a political agenda.

Is that a reality or just some p*s's poor journalism stoking up middle england outrage?
...and even if true, is it due to the antithipy against organised commercial sites, or a result of more motorhomes being bought, or as a result of the lack of affordable housing?

To my mind, there is a world of difference between your modus operandi of staying a night or two off road where vans are tolerated or in some wilderness location, and those that seek the right to park in a town centre, or in a residential area for days/weeks on end.

I don't think it's just journalism ...ive noticed in my own travels the amount of vans parked up of site .....big increase in Scotland and Spain and Portugal had loads


I don't tend to park up in urban centres for long but I have spent the odd night in central carparks because they have been handy for visiting places. But never more than a night or 2 and in those types of places everything is in the van

 

[GJH]

to get back to the origanal post, the only problem that needs changing in the whole country not just whitby, is this stupid idea of parking on a car park makes it a camp site, a campsite is where you get your tent out and your bbq and table and chaires and go to the toilets and showers, and sit about having a beer , kids ride bikes and play football.
None of this would you do while parked on a car park which is there to park, if you want to get your head down whats the difference to lieing accross the back seats of a car or in a motorhome.
Fine if it spoils somones view stop parking in the day although looking at cars cant be a much better view and allow night parking when its dark, spoiling no ones view.
surely that small detail wouldnt take much changing.

As you are so sure it really wouldn't take much changing why not do it? Draft the change and lobby the government with it.

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