Are the days of the motorhome numbered?

LithiumConvert

LithiumConvert

Joined
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4 berth coachbuilt
I suggest, Yes.

Why? Because the emissions regulations (among others), mean that the manufacturers are finding it increasinly difficult to build a motorhome that complies wth the regulations and is fit for the purpose that we are looking for.
 
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Mzracer said:
No my near family managed to get out of the city's about 60 years ago, best thing that we did.

Everything was miles better living away from the city but still within reach of the facilities offered by a big city.
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I used to live in the sticks. Long commutes with other slaves, also burning their 'hard earned' on petrol and parking. Had to drive to get anywhere.

Moved to a flat in the city centre. Walked 5 mins to work, so getting about an hour and a half of extra life back every day. Mortgage was higher, but I was saving a fortune not running a car. No worries about getting home after a couple at the pub. Lots of friends meeting in the centre. Choice of supermarkets in walkable distance. Best thing I ever did.
 
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AndyPK said:
Ah, yes, the ‘stop the plebs from having their own transport’ concept……….. ;)
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Ah, the “everything’s a conspiracy“ concept….didn’t take long 😉

if low income families want to spend thousands of £ on a car that sits still 96% of its life (on average) that’s their choice.
Many won’t and will be liberated and much better off by not having to
 
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Tigger-Tim said:
Toyota Corolla self charging hybrid.
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A self charging hybrid and a plug-in hybrid are essentially the same thing. Just a plug-in has a larger battery and a slightly bigger electric motor, so it's actually worth trying to drive a short distance on the battery alone. For both types, you've essentially got a differential with the combustion engine, the electric motor/dyno and drive axle. So spare combustion engine power can be run into the dyno. Or the electric motor can assist. Or the ICE can be shut down so it's entirely electric.

Mild hybrids are a bit different. There's a few different methods, but the simplest essentially has an oversized starter motor. When you pull away, the ICE is stopped and the motor has enough guts to pull the car off the line and start the engine. As you stop, it gets re-engaged to recharge it's tiny battery. Mild hybrids work at walking pace only.
 
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triky said:
Just announced, the U.K has been granted new oil & gas licences to drill 8o miles off the coast of Scotland !! Maybe wee'l get OUR OWN diesel at last ?? !!
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Oil and gas to be owned by a foreign national corporation. Not really ours.
 
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Guigsy said:
A self charging hybrid and a plug-in hybrid are essentially the same thing. Just a plug-in has a larger battery and a slightly bigger electric motor, so it's actually worth trying to drive a short distance on the battery alone. For both types, you've essentially got a differential with the combustion engine, the electric motor/dyno and drive axle. So spare combustion engine power can be run into the dyno. Or the electric motor can assist. Or the ICE can be shut down so it's entirely electric.

Mild hybrids are a bit different. There's a few different methods, but the simplest essentially has an oversized starter motor. When you pull away, the ICE is stopped and the motor has enough guts to pull the car off the line and start the engine. As you stop, it gets re-engaged to recharge it's tiny battery. Mild hybrids work at walking pace only.
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Yep. Mine doesn't even have a starter motor. The 12v battery is tiny, as all it has to do is power the radio and other 12v electrics.
 
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Guigsy said:
I used to live in the sticks. Long commutes with other slaves, also burning their 'hard earned' on petrol and parking. Had to drive to get anywhere.

Moved to a flat in the city centre. Walked 5 mins to work, so getting about an hour and a half of extra life back every day. Mortgage was higher, but I was saving a fortune not running a car. No worries about getting home after a couple at the pub. Lots of friends meeting in the centre. Choice of supermarkets in walkable distance. Best thing I ever did.
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None of us worked in the city so no problem with the commute but I understand what you say.

No city living for me.

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Guigsy said:
A self charging hybrid and a plug-in hybrid are essentially the same thing. Just a plug-in has a larger battery and a slightly bigger electric motor, so it's actually worth trying to drive a short distance on the battery alone. For both types, you've essentially got a differential with the combustion engine, the electric motor/dyno and drive axle. So spare combustion engine power can be run into the dyno. Or the electric motor can assist. Or the ICE can be shut down so it's entirely electric.

Mild hybrids are a bit different. There's a few different methods, but the simplest essentially has an oversized starter motor. When you pull away, the ICE is stopped and the motor has enough guts to pull the car off the line and start the engine. As you stop, it gets re-engaged to recharge it's tiny battery. Mild hybrids work at walking pace only.
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It's my understanding after 2 Hybrid Toyota's that the batteries in the plug in version are different chemistry to the hybrid only. That to increase the capacity and keep the weight as low as possible. However tech has moved on so that's maybe changed by now.
Personally I have gone back to Diesel and would not consider a standard hybrid. The overal ownership/cost per mile proved much greater over a 3 year ownership than diesel in our usage.
 
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Petroleumblownapart said:
It's my understanding after 2 Hybrid Toyota's that the batteries in the plug in version are different chemistry to the hybrid only. That to increase the capacity and keep the weight as low as possible. However tech has moved on so that's maybe changed by now.
Personally I have gone back to Diesel and would not consider a standard hybrid. The overal ownership/cost per mile proved much greater over a 3 year ownership than diesel in our usage.
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Hybrids are great in stop start traffic or even you have a lot of junctions and roundabouts. Not too bad on really hilly areas too. The energy recovery is most of the benefit. They aren't so good for extended runs on a motorway. A diesel will be just as economical, but cheaper to buy and less to go wrong.
 
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Boldly said:
The EU have decided not to implement euro7 standards so we should be all right for a good while yet
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Some say that due to Brexit we are no longer part of the EU! It would not be a surprise that an UK government would impose Euro 7 on (D)UK vehicles ! Better in than out!!
 
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Interesting read in this very topical subject. Working on all vehicle types petrol diesel hybrid and EV vehicles. Many point out the rational and irrational thinking . Mainly about infrastructure and power to charge EV,s and the cost of ev,s which are heavily subsidized. And no one mentioned the elephant in the room. The Ev killer comes in two parts. Hydrogen power. Which no EV producer will want. for their own financial gain obviously. And the biggest issue that Ev production will hit a very expensive wall. Lithium quantity required for all the large heavy batteries. It won't happen. OZ n Chile n china just can't get enough out the ground. And will soon be too expensive to produce. Making the cost of the heavily subsidized industry out of reach financially. However a small hydrogen engine and a small HV battery giving a hydrogen electric hybrid. This can and no dought will be where it ends. In my view. Which means nothing. In 2002 there were 2 hydrogen service points in the UK. There are 14 now. It's not alot but there ain't alot of hydrogen cars out there. But there will be soon. An small petrol engine needs some internal changes to run on hydrogen which can be redesigned at factory build. These will produce less bhp and torque the the equivalent petrol. But when you add a small Hv battery so only to need 20% of the lithium of a Full EV battery then this would then give more power n torque of its equivalent petrol engine.this way we don't run out of lithium the grid will cope with short low demand charging. And you won't get stuck when your HV battery is flat as you still have an engine. In my view only of course.
Rant over.

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Ava the Adria said:
It takes around 4.5kWh of electric to make a gallon of petrol. The average EV can travel 20 miles on that leccy. So instead of making petrol, charge a BEV and save electricity! Just imagine how much electricity could be saved if we didn’t make petrol!

www.nationalgrid.com

Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles | National Grid Group

Can the electricity grid cope with more EVs? And what really happens to old EV batteries? Find out the answer to these and many more questions about electric vehicles in our comprehensive EV myth-buster.
www.nationalgrid.com www.nationalgrid.com
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Another load of tosh, the figures quoted for making a Gallon of petrol is rubbish, Petrol is a distilled product in a distillation column, it comes off the column as it rises at a certain temp meanwhile other products are coming off at different temps.
 
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What we need is overhead power lines and a pantograph :-). And a battery good for the last few miles to the off-grid parking spot for the freebee seekers.
 
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Turnersnhooch said:
Interesting read in this very topical subject. Working on all vehicle types petrol diesel hybrid and EV vehicles. Many point out the rational and irrational thinking . Mainly about infrastructure and power to charge EV,s and the cost of ev,s which are heavily subsidized. And no one mentioned the elephant in the room. The Ev killer comes in two parts. Hydrogen power. Which no EV producer will want. for their own financial gain obviously. And the biggest issue that Ev production will hit a very expensive wall. Lithium quantity required for all the large heavy batteries. It won't happen. OZ n Chile n china just can't get enough out the ground. And will soon be too expensive to produce. Making the cost of the heavily subsidized industry out of reach financially. However a small hydrogen engine and a small HV battery giving a hydrogen electric hybrid. This can and no dought will be where it ends. In my view. Which means nothing. In 2002 there were 2 hydrogen service points in the UK. There are 14 now. It's not alot but there ain't alot of hydrogen cars out there. But there will be soon. An small petrol engine needs some internal changes to run on hydrogen which can be redesigned at factory build. These will produce less bhp and torque the the equivalent petrol. But when you add a small Hv battery so only to need 20% of the lithium of a Full EV battery then this would then give more power n torque of its equivalent petrol engine.this way we don't run out of lithium the grid will cope with short low demand charging. And you won't get stuck when your HV battery is flat as you still have an engine. In my view only of course.
Rant over.
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You talk too much sense, that will not do !!
 
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Turnersnhooch said:
Interesting read in this very topical subject. Working on all vehicle types petrol diesel hybrid and EV vehicles. Many point out the rational and irrational thinking . Mainly about infrastructure and power to charge EV,s and the cost of ev,s which are heavily subsidized. And no one mentioned the elephant in the room. The Ev killer comes in two parts. Hydrogen power. Which no EV producer will want. for their own financial gain obviously. And the biggest issue that Ev production will hit a very expensive wall. Lithium quantity required for all the large heavy batteries. It won't happen. OZ n Chile n china just can't get enough out the ground. And will soon be too expensive to produce. Making the cost of the heavily subsidized industry out of reach financially. However a small hydrogen engine and a small HV battery giving a hydrogen electric hybrid. This can and no dought will be where it ends. In my view. Which means nothing. In 2002 there were 2 hydrogen service points in the UK. There are 14 now. It's not alot but there ain't alot of hydrogen cars out there. But there will be soon. An small petrol engine needs some internal changes to run on hydrogen which can be redesigned at factory build. These will produce less bhp and torque the the equivalent petrol. But when you add a small Hv battery so only to need 20% of the lithium of a Full EV battery then this would then give more power n torque of its equivalent patrol engine.this way we don't run out of lithium the grid will cope with short low demand charging. And you won't get stuck when your HV battery is flat as you still have an engine. In my view only of course.
Rant over.
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Hydrogen for combustion is really inefficient. You need a lot of it. Fuel tanks end up being enormous.

If hydrogen happens, it'll need to be fuel cells. Even then, you need to generate roughly twice as much electricity to make hydrogen that you would if you were to charge a battery. Note that the Toyota Mirai is roughly the same size and weight as a Tesla Model S, similar range and price. But the Tesla has a much larger boot.

We are going to need a lot of lithium. But it's also a very abundant material. The other metals in many car batteries is more difficult, but other chemistries like LiFePO4 avoid the need for most of the manganese and nickel.

I don't see hydrogen offering much benefit over battery right now. Except instead of charging at home, you have to trek across the country you get a tank of hydrogen. And if costs twice as much per mile. Hydrogen is like betamax, it's lost the race as far as I can see.
 
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Guigsy said:
Hydrogen for combustion is really inefficient. You need a lot of it. Fuel tanks end up being enormous.

If hydrogen happens, it'll need to be fuel cells. Even then, you need to generate roughly twice as much electricity to make hydrogen that you would if you were to charge a battery. Note that the Toyota Mirai is roughly the same size and weight as a Tesla Model S, similar range and price. But the Tesla has a much larger boot.

We are going to need a lot of lithium. But it's also a very abundant material. The other metals in many car batteries is more difficult, but other chemistries like LiFePO4 avoid the need for most of the manganese and nickel.

I don't see hydrogen offering much benefit over battery right now. Except instead of charging at home, you have to trek across the country you get a tank of hydrogen. And if costs twice as much per mile. Hydrogen is like betamax, it's lost the race as far as I can see.
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Guigsy if I had to place a bet on you or Bamford of JCB then my money is going on Bamford. He is convinced about hydrogen.

If Hydrogen was to take off as a fuel then it is within the realm of imagination that the hydrogen is produced at home via extracting the hydrogen from water. Of course, there is a double loss in this but it is very convenient. Hydrogen refilling at fuel stations would be a lot quicker than battery recharging and would not need large cable works, which I cannot see how can be avoided to get all the vehicles charged.

Personally, I don't see hydrogen as being any more dangerous than petrol, I have seen serious hydrogen fires but in many ways that was preferable to big petrol fires.

My hunch for a long time is that we are entering an age of multi fuels.

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Big ev trucks (hgv) already available

I thought hydrogen with fuel cell but that isn’t optimal and won’t be the future.

Hydrogen for plant will happen but may get overtaken by battery
 
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Mzracer said:
Guigsy if I had to place a bet on you or Bamford of JCB then my money is going on Bamford. He is convinced about hydrogen.

If Hydrogen was to take off as a fuel then it is within the realm of imagination that the hydrogen is produced at home via extracting the hydrogen from water. Of course, there is a double loss in this but it is very convenient. Hydrogen refilling at fuel stations would be a lot quicker than battery recharging and would not need large cable works, which I cannot see how can be avoided to get all the vehicles charged.

Personally, I don't see hydrogen as being any more dangerous than petrol, I have seen serious hydrogen fires but in many ways that was preferable to big petrol fires.

My hunch for a long time is that we are entering an age of multi fuels.
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Hydrogen for HGVs might happen. But that doesn't mean it'll trickle over the cars and vans.

Generating hydrogen at home... which needs electricity. Why not just fill a battery instead and waste far less energy?

When I can buy an electric car that charges on my drive, so I only have to take to a fast charger a few times a year on holiday, and even then it's only 20 minutes, even petrol seems pretty inconvenient.
 
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Guigsy said:
Generating hydrogen at home... which needs electricity. Why not just fill a battery instead and waste far less energy?
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Because the energy density is just not there.

I have two uses for a car, short journeys and long journeys, the short journeys are fine for EV and we did look at a Leaf. The long journeys 480 miles round trip in a day with no charging point at the destination are a distant dream for EV.

I do the 480 mile round trip in a banger that costs just £2000 and does nearly 50 mpg.

I am not sure if EV's are ever going to be able to do that in that price point. I maybe wrong but not in my life time and I have about a 1/4 century to go.
 
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Northernraider said:
Well 2030 is already now 2035 , and it will soon become 2040,2050 ,never

Once they've got enough crazies to buy electric and the grid crashes then it will be back to good old diesel.
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Exactly. What happens if there is a huge storm like there was in Scotland a year or two ago, and there was no electric for a fortnight. You can’t charge your phone, boil the kettle, so what chance have you of charging an electric vehicle. As usual, the powers that be, can’t see further than the end of next week.
 
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MillyMoHo said:
Exactly. What happens if there is a huge storm like there was in Scotland a year or two ago, and there was no electric for a fortnight. You can’t charge your phone, boil the kettle, so what chance have you of charging an electric vehicle. As usual, the powers that be, can’t see further than the end of next week.
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Diesel and petrol shortages happened this year. And last year. And several times in the past.

Some EVs can reverse charge. They can run a house for several days.

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Ah, but you’ll be able to power your home from your EV battery, won’t you…..?
 
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Considering the fact we humans have produced products and gasses into the atmosphere for what is a miniscule of time.

Compared to how long this planet has been around.

I don't think we're going anywhere plus all the changes are just smoke and mirrors feeding the top of the food chain.
 
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The view that diesel will be less available , and cost more would tend to be illogical , as supply and demand will make it a buyers market , as its a bi product of crude oil , the suppliers of which wont want to leave it in the ground when the chemical industry needs it . Anyone else see this as a possible outcome ?

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