Are the days of the motorhome numbered? (1 Viewer)

[LithiumConvert]

I suggest, Yes.

Why? Because the emissions regulations (among others), mean that the manufacturers are finding it increasinly difficult to build a motorhome that complies wth the regulations and is fit for the purpose that we are looking for.

 

[Guigsy]

The view that diesel will be less available , and cost more would tend to be illogical , as supply and demand will make it a buyers market , as its a bi product of crude oil , the suppliers of which wont want to leave it in the ground when the chemical industry needs it . Anyone else see this as a possible outcome ?

I suspect taxes on diesel will slowly increase. And as demand decreases and the pumps become rarer and the volumes decrease, the price will rise.

Also, diesel is easy to make, but refineries can alter their mix. With more cracking and combining, they could reuse all the diesel fraction to make whatever they want.

 

[Mzracer]

There's currently a load of confusion about the use of 4.25 tonne electric panel vans.

Fleets cancel orders for 4.25-tonne electric vans due to confusion

Fleets are cancelling orders for 4.25-tonne electric vans, because of confusion over regulations surrounding their use, according to AFP.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

So the 3.5 tonne rule was really a load of old tosh if it can be exempted to 4.25 tonne's when it suits.

 

[tonyidle]

I don't think full on hybrid will work for motorhomes. A car will cruise at 70mph, needing only 50bhp to maintain its speed. So with a 100bhp high efficiency combustion engine, it can charge the battery and then flip to electric mode quite a bit of the time.

Whereas a motorhome is using most of its horsepower to cruise at 60mph. There's very little spare power to do any charging. So hybrid would be dead weight out of urban areas.

I think the most we'll see are mild hybrids, which only make a small difference in stop-start traffic.

I cruise a 5.5T motorhome at 65mph on about 1/3 throttle. I'd suggest that's little more than 50 to 70 hp leaving around 150 or so to charge batteries.

 

[Mzracer]

I cruise a 5.5T motorhome at 65mph on about 1/3 throttle. I'd suggest that's little more than 50 to 70 hp leaving around 150 or so to charge batteries.

But why would you charge batteries from heavily taxed fuel using an engine that at best is 30% efficient, that just does not make any sense at all. You might as well use the fuel to drive the vehicle along !!

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[Guigsy]

I cruise a 5.5T motorhome at 65mph on about 1/3 throttle. I'd suggest that's little more than 50 to 70 hp leaving around 150 or so to charge batteries.

Depends on throttle mapping. You probably don't get any more torque after you push past half way. That's all she'll give. Pedal position isn't directly related to power.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I don't think full on hybrid will work for motorhomes. A car will cruise at 70mph, needing only 50bhp to maintain its speed. So with a 100bhp high efficiency combustion engine, it can charge the battery and then flip to electric mode quite a bit of the time.

Whereas a motorhome is using most of its horsepower to cruise at 60mph. There's very little spare power to do any charging. So hybrid would be dead weight out of urban areas.

I think the most we'll see are mild hybrids, which only make a small difference in stop-start traffic.

With respect, you have a poor understanding of self-charging full hybrids. The efficiency gains are a result of the Atkinson cycle ICE that is optimised for fuel efficiency instead of horsepower, and the KERS that puts charge back into the HV battery when braking or going down a gradient. It puts charge back in when I lift off the throttle. "B" mode is almost one-pedal driving. Overall gains (mixed driving including urban and motorway miles) works out at about 30% better mpg compared against a similar car (older model we used to have) that is ICE only. Average 68 mpg now, against 52 mpg before. A good hybrid does it all seamlessly. I don't see why a proper self-charging full hybrid MH would not achieve similar mpg gains and other benefits. A mild hybrid one would fit your description.

I would love a self-charging full hybrid Ducato, but I doubt very much if Stellantis will offer one due to the impending 2030 / 2035 ban on sales. Not long enough to recoup the required investment. I have driven a mild hybrid Fiat Panda and was unimpressed. There didn't appear to be any tangible benefit. Yesterday my hybrid car drove all the way home from the town centre in EV mode. Still showing 50% charge when we parked it outside the house. The ICE didn't kick in. Luvverly.

 

[CazPaul]

I used to live in the sticks. Long commutes with other slaves, also burning their 'hard earned' on petrol and parking. Had to drive to get anywhere.

Moved to a flat in the city centre. Walked 5 mins to work, so getting about an hour and a half of extra life back every day. Mortgage was higher, but I was saving a fortune not running a car. No worries about getting home after a couple at the pub. Lots of friends meeting in the centre. Choice of supermarkets in walkable distance. Best thing I ever did.

Each to his own, country life far better, the sound of nature to wake upto, the peace and quiet, sat out with dark skies watching the stars
The lovely air to breathe, no pollution, much less crime, beautiful hikes on your doorstep, I could go on.

 

[starquake]

Like I said from a financial point of view it does not stack up to change a junker diesel Golf for a second hand Leaf, I was prepared to do it if there was a financial benefit but is just not there. Electricity is not cheap and I doubt that it ever will be again.

Charging an EV is 7.5p a kWh. Or 2p a mile on an average EV versus 10-15p a mile on diesel. That’s why delivery vans switching to them. No one sane pays the normal electricity prices with an EV given you get the cheap prices anytime you charging with octopus at least. Total cost of 12 months and 15000 miles motoring for us was ~125 in home charging and approx 125 in public charging. (Both in GBP). Versus 1500 in diesel for same. And that’s before you take into account other savings like lower tyre and brake wear.

Ref junker leafs a good one is about 3-4k. It’ll pay for itself in about 3-4 years on the fuel savings alone. That said I wouldn’t get a junk old leaf I’d get a Zoe given those are even cheaper and have a longer range typically at that price. ( just have to get one with a paid off battery lease )

Ref grid capacity to charge them and decommissioned plants. It’s there already - except for 2-3 days of the year there is enough spare CCGT gas turbines free overnight to cover all charging needs for everyone. On top of those ( for the 2-3 days thing ) There’s 4 mothballed CCGTs (2GW) owned by Macquarie that are not economic to run due to lack of demand. Wind may be intermittent but it’s what killed the demand for the above. But the plant is there idle and if everyone switched tmrw it would cope and be recommissioned pretty quick for the peak. But no one sane charges an ev at the peak demand point anyhow. ( peak demand is when you travelling home. Not charging )

 

[Guigsy]

With respect, you have a poor understanding of self-charging full hybrids. The efficiency gains are a result of the Atkinson cycle ICE that is optimised for fuel efficiency instead of horsepower, and the KERS that puts charge back into the HV battery when braking or going down a gradient. It puts charge back in when I lift off the throttle. "B" mode is almost one-pedal driving. Overall gains (mixed driving including urban and motorway miles) works out at about 30% better mpg compared against a similar car (older model we used to have) that is ICE only. Average 68 mpg now, against 52 mpg before. A good hybrid does it all seamlessly. I don't see why a proper self-charging full hybrid MH would not achieve similar mpg gains and other benefits. A mild hybrid one would fit your description.

I would love a self-charging full hybrid Ducato, but I doubt very much if Stellantis will offer one due to the impending 2030 / 2035 ban on sales. Not long enough to recoup the required investment. I have driven a mild hybrid Fiat Panda and was unimpressed. There didn't appear to be any tangible benefit. Yesterday my hybrid car drove all the way home from the town centre in EV mode. Still showing 50% charge when we parked it outside the house. The ICE didn't kick in. Luvverly.

That doesn't change the fact that motorhomes use far more of their available power to cruise than the average car. We're pushing 2-3x the weight, 3-4x the frontal area with far worse aero. Yet many cars have more powerful engines. There just not much spare power to run the on-off cycles that give hybrids any edge.

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[WallaceandGromit]

If we didn't have common rail injectors, we could run on vegetable oil,no nasty emissions then ,the smell would make u think of a chip buttie

Used to run a MK1 Landrover 300 tdi on chip fat everyone knew when I arrived on site

 

[tonyidle]

Exactly. What happens if there is a huge storm like there was in Scotland a year or two ago, and there was no electric for a fortnight. You can’t charge your phone, boil the kettle, so what chance have you of charging an electric vehicle. As usual, the powers that be, can’t see further than the end of next week.

And cannot pump petrol or Diesel? As with any emergency you're reliant on whatever fuel is in the tank / battery.

 

[Mzracer]

Charging an EV is 7.5p a kWh. Or 2p a mile on an average EV versus 10-15p a mile on diesel. That’s why delivery vans switching to them. No one sane pays the normal electricity prices with an EV given you get the cheap prices anytime you charging with octopus at least. Total cost of 12 months and 15000 miles motoring for us was ~125 in home charging and approx 125 in public charging. (Both in GBP). Versus 1500 in diesel for same. And that’s before you take into account other savings like lower tyre and brake wear.

Ref junker leafs a good one is about 3-4k. It’ll pay for itself in about 3-4 years on the fuel savings alone. That said I wouldn’t get a junk old leaf I’d get a Zoe given those are even cheaper and have a longer range typically at that price. ( just have to get one with a paid off battery lease )

Ref grid capacity to charge them and decommissioned plants. It’s there already - except for 2-3 days of the year there is enough spare CCGT gas turbines free overnight to cover all charging needs for everyone. On top of those ( for the 2-3 days thing ) There’s 4 mothballed CCGTs (2GW) owned by Macquarie that are not economic to run due to lack of demand. Wind may be intermittent but it’s what killed the demand for the above. But the plant is there idle and if everyone switched tmrw it would cope and be recommissioned pretty quick for the peak. But no one sane charges an ev at the peak demand point anyhow. ( peak demand is when you travelling home. Not charging )

Thanks for your reply, I will look again.

 

[tonyidle]

But why would you charge batteries from heavily taxed fuel using an engine that at best is 30% efficient, that just does not make any sense at all. You might as well use the fuel to drive the vehicle along !!

I wouldn't. I was simply questioning the power required to propel a vehicle at a steady cruise.

 

[Mzracer]

I wouldn't. I was simply questioning the power required to propel a vehicle at a steady cruise.

Yes steady cruise power is nothing like that suggested earlier.

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[tonyidle]

Depends on throttle mapping. You probably don't get any more torque after you push past half way. That's all she'll give. Pedal position isn't directly related to power.

I understand that pedal position isn't directly related to power output. But maximum torque invariably occurs at full throttle. The engine will develop maximum torque at a specific engine speed determined by load not throttle position.

 

[Guigsy]

I understand that pedal position isn't directly related to power output. But maximum torque invariably occurs at full throttle. The engine will develop maximum torque at a specific engine speed determined by load not throttle position.

If you're at a steady speed, in most situations, maximum acceleration (and hence power and torque for that rpm) only requires you to push the throttle down a little way further. You don't get any more by burying the pedal in the carpet. Throttle pedal position doesn't tell you current power output.

 

[tonyidle]

If you're at a steady speed, in most situations, maximum acceleration (and hence power and torque for that rpm) only requires you to push the throttle down a little way further. You don't get any more by burying the pedal in the carpet. Throttle pedal position doesn't tell you current power output.

I did not say that it did. You will however always get more power by flooring the pedal.

 

[SpeedyDux]

That doesn't change the fact that motorhomes use far more of their available power to cruise than the average car. We're pushing 2-3x the weight, 3-4x the frontal area with far worse aero. Yet many cars have more powerful engines. There just not much spare power to run the on-off cycles that give hybrids any edge.

When you need more power (e.g. rapid acceleration, or are going up a steep gradient) the ICE and battery act in combination to provide maximum torque and power. That's where you will find the ample spare power, when needed. Most of the time especially cruising on a motorway you require less power, so the ECU prioritises efficiency, i.e. you will get much better mpg cruising along at 60 or 70. The same technology will apply to a hybrid motorhome. You will use the same power at that speed as you would with a diesel ICE but the hybrid because of the clever way it does things has a big advantage in terms of overall efficiency.

 

[MillyMoHo]

Ah, but you’ll be able to power your home from your EV battery, won’t you…..?

Good luck!

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[SpeedyDux]

Times have moved on, Intelligent demand is replacing the old Demand Side Response developed in the “old” fossil fuel grid and DSR is now outdated.

It’s a long read, but the post on the below link explains how flexibility and smart tariffs will see us through.

Moving from ‘Demand Side Response’ to ‘Intelligent Demand’

For the last sixty years, efforts to influence energy demand have been defined by (and limited to) the concept of ‘Demand side response’ (DSR). Now we have the opportunity to move to 'Intelligent Demand' - which could solve a whole host of energy issues.

octopus.energy

Electricity rationing by another name, basically.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Modern flats are very soundproof. Even better when they actually install the fire breaks.

I used to think that about my modern house until students moved in next door. Then I discovered that the developers had told fibs about the soundproofing.

 

[Guigsy]

When you need more power (e.g. rapid acceleration, or are going up a steep gradient) the ICE and battery act in combination to provide maximum torque and power. That's where you will find the ample spare power, when needed. Most of the time especially cruising on a motorway you require less power, so the ECU prioritises efficiency, i.e. you will get much better mpg cruising along at 60 or 70. The same technology will apply to a hybrid motorhome. You will use the same power at that speed as you would with a diesel ICE but the hybrid because of the clever way it does things has a big advantage in terms of overall efficiency.

You hybrid probably has a similar power output to your motorhome. Except your motorhome needs 3-4x the power to cruise at 70mph. In your car, that's like driving at 100mph to get similar resistance. How do you think your hybrid would behave? I suspect the battery would flatten pretty quickly, you'd be on pure combustion power and the EV bits would be dead weight.

 

[Soycd]

The true answer to the OP is, nobody knows. We can spend our time discussing what might happen in the next 15 or so years time, but it’s pure speculation. No one has any proof or evidence that they are right. Too many people look at the ‘now’ and don’t acknowledge that the world of technology is ever evolving and what may seem impossible now, we will take for granted in the future. We’ve all heard the story of our humble iPhones of today having 100,000 more processing power than the Apollo 11 mission (they used a sextant to help navigate!) so we need to have a bit of faith in our engineers/inventors/scientists. Too much gloom and doom around!

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

Can you elaborate a little on your typical usage? I am interested.

My average mpg of petrol even with the hybrid input was only 45mpg. Average of 50 to 60% on long runs. I recently had chat with a Taxi driver in his 2021 Toyata hybrid Auris and almost 90% of his mother mileage was in town. He was averaging 50mpg. It was higher in summer at a smidge over 55mpg but dropped a lot in the winter obviously. The cost of hybrid above diesel does not warrant hybrid either on running costs or C02 output iny opinion. The only free of cost energy for charging is from braking and overrun or downhill. We live in Lincolnshire so steep hills are scarce.
Regular non plugin hybrids are much less efficient on long high speed runs as once the battery is charged the system tends to concentrate on motion not charging. This means that you basically revert to standard fuel efficiency in theory. Hybrids are opposite to ICE in that they are better in stop start driving than constant speeds.

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[Ava the Adria]

Another load of tosh, the figures quoted for making a Gallon of petrol is rubbish, Petrol is a distilled product in a distillation column, it comes off the column as it rises at a certain temp meanwhile other products are coming off at different temps.

and to get it to that “certain temperature” you have to heat it up with…..

 

[DDJC]

The true answer to the OP is, nobody knows. We can spend our time discussing what might happen in the next 15 or so years time, but it’s pure speculation. No one has any proof or evidence that they are right. Too many people look at the ‘now’ and don’t acknowledge that the world of technology is ever evolving and what may seem impossible now, we will take for granted in the future. We’ve all heard the story of our humble iPhones of today having 100,000 more processing power than the Apollo 11 mission (they used a sextant to help navigate!) so we need to have a bit of faith in our engineers/inventors/scientists. Too much gloom and doom around!

So true.
I can't see whether the 'new' power will end up being be hydrogen combustion, superconductive 48v, hydrogen fuel cell, lithium ion or silicon anode battery or even fermented badger poo. No idea which ones will simply 'betamax' out of history. But one thing it won't be, is an oil derivative. Probably safe to say that there will be a betamax moment and either hydrogen or battery will suppress the other.

I expect to be driving a MH for twenty more years. Unless they come down in price by about 90%, I will be sticking with our derv bus. Derv vehicles will have a negative resale value, so unless someone invents a cost effective way to convert derv and petrol vehicles, people will stick to derv, for many many years yet.

 

[Ava the Adria]

Electricity rationing by another name, basically.

But you can choose to use full price electrons at any time of the day if you wish to. I choose to use quarter price (overnight) or even free off peak electricity when it’s sloshing around in plenty, eg on a windy day.

 

[starquake]

Electricity rationing by another name, basically.

Is it rationing if as with intelligent octopus you just tell your electric company what time you next need to use car and they charge for that time without you caring about when. At no point do you not have control as you can override and say charge now ( and pay more) or more sensibly just say you need to leave earlier and adjust the schedule. Admittedly you can’t get the cheap Charing if you say you need to leave at 6pm same day and adjust it at say 3pm that day. But you can set it to leave 6pm tommorow and pay the cheap rate. These company’s are not building capability’s without override - I can override it all and pay 30 p to charge the car any time I want. I choose not to as that’s 7-8p a mile versus 2p. My choice.

 

[starquake]

Should also add with octopus you can if you live in certain postcodes get free electricity now if you use it in certain hours when there is over supply. That’s on top of the excellent EV deal. Free car charging at home at times what’s not to like. ( you need to be on a uk power networks area with one of about 2000 eligible postcodes it’s all on their website ). Free motoring. What’s not to like.

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[starquake]

Should add we also are sticking with our diesel motorhome for years to come. But I do expect we will see electric PVC variants in but 1-2 years becoming a new normal.