Are the days of the motorhome numbered? (1 Viewer)

[LithiumConvert]

I suggest, Yes.

Why? Because the emissions regulations (among others), mean that the manufacturers are finding it increasinly difficult to build a motorhome that complies wth the regulations and is fit for the purpose that we are looking for.

 

[Ava the Adria]

Should also add with octopus you can if you live in certain postcodes get free electricity now if you use it in certain hours when there is over supply. That’s on top of the excellent EV deal. Free car charging at home at times what’s not to like. ( you need to be on a uk power networks area with one of about 2000 eligible postcodes it’s all on their website ). Free motoring. What’s not to like.

That’s what we do; smart meter allows cheap electricity time of use tariffs, car charger allows Octopus to charge the car when leccy is greenest on their Intelligent tariff. Not free for us, but really is cheap as chips and super green. Their Agile tariff pays you to take power when it’s in surplus, but we find Intelligent suits us better overall. So there is still choice.

 

[Mzracer]

My average mpg of petrol even with the hybrid input was only 45mpg. Average of 50 to 60% on long runs. I recently had chat with a Taxi driver in his 2021 Toyata hybrid Auris and almost 90% of his mother mileage was in town. He was averaging 50mpg. It was higher in summer at a smidge over 55mpg but dropped a lot in the winter obviously. The cost of hybrid above diesel does not warrant hybrid either on running costs or C02 output iny opinion. The only free of cost energy for charging is from braking and overrun or downhill. We live in Lincolnshire so steep hills are scarce.
Regular non plugin hybrids are much less efficient on long high speed runs as once the battery is charged the system tends to concentrate on motion not charging. This means that you basically revert to standard fuel efficiency in theory. Hybrids are opposite to ICE in that they are better in stop start driving than constant speeds.

Very clear, thanks.

 

[starquake]

That’s what we do; smart meter allows cheap electricity time of use tariffs, car charger allows Octopus to charge the car when leccy is greenest on their Intelligent tariff. Not free for us, but really is cheap as chips and super green. Their Agile tariff pays you to take power when it’s in surplus, but we find Intelligent suits us better overall. So there is still choice.

We are intelligent now but were on Agile in past. We got paid £1 for a days electricity usage when prices were negative lol. Using as much energy as you wanted and being paid to do it. Totally nuts when you get a days bill that’s negative.

With the UKPN specific deal you can still be on intelligent but when agile prices negative all usage is free. https://octopus.energy/power-ups/

 

[Linda farley]

I'll die before the time comes when motorhomes are banned...

JJ

Me too

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[Spara4042]

Well 2030 is already now 2035 , and it will soon become 2040,2050 ,never

Once they've got enough crazies to buy electric and the grid crashes then it will be back to good old diesel.

I replied to a post that was boasting about the 12 new EV charging points at Scotch Corner Services, remarking how they’d hidden away the 6 diesel generators that are powering them
The OP claimed they were “clean diesel & much more efficient than diesel engines in vehicles”
I wondered how many smug EV drivers would feel about their power not coming from the National Grid

 

[Mzracer]

I wondered how many smug EV drivers would feel about their power not coming from the National Grid

Or that is a good part of Nuclear power either.

 

[Ernesto]

I replied to a post that was boasting about the 12 new EV charging points at Scotch Corner Services, remarking how they’d hidden away the 6 diesel generators that are powering them
The OP claimed they were “clean diesel & much more efficient than diesel engines in vehicles”
I wondered how many smug EV drivers would feel about their power not coming from the National Grid

So these diesel generators …are they really powering the EV chargers or are they Gridserves Solar Energy Centres …which do include a generator, amongst other things like solar and rechargeable batteries, but are only used for construction and run on recycled vegetable oil ?
They even used electric diggers on this job…not hydrogen, electric.
Another myth - or was it another Scotch Corner charging site ?

GRIDSERVE | Cutting carbon in Electric Super Hub construction with electric excavators

Another week and it seems the green ribbon on yet another newly opened GRIDSERVE Electric Super Hub has just been cut. People of Darlington, say hello to 12 ...

www.gridserve.com

 

[Spara4042]

So these diesel generators …are they really powering the EV chargers or are they Gridserves Solar Energy Centres …which do include a generator, amongst other things like solar and rechargeable batteries, but are only used for construction and run on recycled vegetable oil ?
They even used electric diggers on this job…not hydrogen, electric.
Another myth - or was it another Scotch Corner charging site ?

GRIDSERVE | Cutting carbon in Electric Super Hub construction with electric excavators

Another week and it seems the green ribbon on yet another newly opened GRIDSERVE Electric Super Hub has just been cut. People of Darlington, say hello to 12 ...

www.gridserve.com

I can’t say I noticed any solar panels, installed or otherwise & any plant I saw sounded awfully like diesel engines to me
Not saying I was there for all the construction but I visit that site quite frequently, as I live very local.

 

[Mzracer]

So these diesel generators …are they really powering the EV chargers or are they Gridserves Solar Energy Centres …which do include a generator, amongst other things like solar and rechargeable batteries, but are only used for construction and run on recycled vegetable oil ?
They even used electric diggers on this job…not hydrogen, electric.
Another myth - or was it another Scotch Corner charging site ?

GRIDSERVE | Cutting carbon in Electric Super Hub construction with electric excavators

Another week and it seems the green ribbon on yet another newly opened GRIDSERVE Electric Super Hub has just been cut. People of Darlington, say hello to 12 ...

www.gridserve.com

Well the solar panels in the link will sure need some help in charging lots of cars so I guess that is why the diesel generator are there.

I can tell you what is not a myth is that at the Formula E motor races that they have banks of diesel generators to charge the cars.

Also this Jaguar electric boat World record on Coniston water used a big diesel generator to charge the battery, none of the boat yards around Coniston had a big enough power supply for the charger, the boat had a Formula E battery pack. I completed all of the electric conversion installation on this project for Vector and Williams.



You are a believer most of us are neutral.

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[starquake]

I can’t say I noticed any solar panels, installed or otherwise & any plant I saw sounded awfully like diesel engines to me
Not saying I was there for all the construction but I visit that site quite frequently, as I live very local.

It’s true the services take sometimes use diesel gens for the fast chargers whilst the 1-2 year wait for the main grid connection to be upgraded ( gridserve admitted that in Exeters case ) That’s the real story here some grid connections taking 1-2 years for reinforcement due to the planning and delivery time. But it will likely in scotch corners case be running on 100% wind many days of year once the grid connection fixed - it’s normally only temporary measure so they can meet demand before the grid is there. Gridserve are quite amazing as they put batteries in many services to cover peak demand. This is actually a part of many EV chargers standard practice apparently as it means their demand is pretty much fixed on the grid with the batteries recharging as the chargers sit idle overnight for most part. ( this is also when electricity is cheapest so it also lowers their costs)

 

[Mzracer]

It’s true the services take sometimes use diesel gens for the fast chargers whilst the 1-2 year wait for the main grid connection to be upgraded ( gridserve admitted that in Exeters case ) That’s the real story here some grid connections taking 1-2 years for reinforcement due to the planning and delivery time. But it will likely in scotch corners case be running on 100% wind many days of year once the grid connection fixed - it’s normally only temporary measure so they can meet demand before the grid is there. Gridserve are quite amazing as they put batteries in many services to cover peak demand. This is actually a part of many EV chargers standard practice apparently as it means their demand is pretty much fixed on the grid with the batteries recharging as the chargers sit idle overnight for most part. ( this is also when electricity is cheapest so it also lowers their costs)

You are completely summing up the infrastructure problem that a number of other commentators are mentioning.

That infrastructure would all need a massive upgrade if HGV were ever to go electric. Personally, I don't think that will be the case rather HGV will go hydrogen.

So the current EV infrastructure is serving around 2.5% of the cars in the UK so it is fairly safe to say that we are going to need to see about a 40 fold increase in the number of charging sites to go 100% EV.

 

[Mzracer]

It’s true the services take sometimes use diesel gens for the fast chargers whilst the 1-2 year wait for the main grid connection to be upgraded ( gridserve admitted that in Exeters case ) That’s the real story here some grid connections taking 1-2 years for reinforcement due to the planning and delivery time. But it will likely in scotch corners case be running on 100% wind many days of year once the grid connection fixed - it’s normally only temporary measure so they can meet demand before the grid is there. Gridserve are quite amazing as they put batteries in many services to cover peak demand. This is actually a part of many EV chargers standard practice apparently as it means their demand is pretty much fixed on the grid with the batteries recharging as the chargers sit idle overnight for most part. ( this is also when electricity is cheapest so it also lowers their costs)

The cheap off peak power will not last for long as the generating companies will see that this is not off peak anymore but has value that needs squeezing.

 

[Jonno1103]

Hybrids produce more CO2 than a petrol engine which in turn produce more CO2 than a diesel engine. The EU are soon to increase RFL to reflect this and the UK will follow.

Forget about the planet as in truth it has nothing to do with it. It's about economics and the goalposts are changed to suit.

How can a 11 year old Euro 5 diesel 120d BMW be only £30 to tax? Politics... because it certainly isn't cleaner.

For EV's to become a true ICE replacement requires infrastructure which will cost more than HS2, It'll never happen and those areas which will see a half decent network will pay through the nose as it'll be privately owned like all our energy is.

EV propulsion requires a lot of rare earth minerals, they're rare for a reason. They're found in very small amounts. They're very hard and very expensive to mine and separate which in turn produces a lot of damage to the environment due to this process. When you only need mines for producing magnets for sensors, robotics, electronics and electric trains, the damage is low and the supply & demand chain is possible.

When you read that globally there'll be 350 million EV's on the roads by 2030 what impact will that level of mining have on our environment? The planet will become pock marked with hundreds, possibly thousands of small mining settlements which will ultimately be left abandoned as these rare earth seams are minuscule compared to the likes of gold, silver & ore.

These rare earths can't be recycled either and have a limited life as the magnetism they produce for such high temperatures in EV motors kills them.

There's a huge focus on battery life but when you couple this with motor life for the extended real world mileage we'll demand these motors will probably die before the energy which drives them does.

Today, in terms of wastage, 99% of vehicles, domestic white goods and other home tech is recycled. Waste to energy plants produce electricity which is vastly reducing landfill. This energy is fed into the national grid.

Yes we have a national grid capable of supply but the real issue is domestic, there are many, many thousands of houses and local substations which don't have the ability to cope with the power required. Houses built as late as 2015 need their domestic supply augmented to truly exploit the convenience of a wall mounted charger.

Realistic alternatives already available? Next year will see the first HVO pumps on our forecourts, pumps which are already proving popular in Ireland. For Euro 6 it's a direct replacement to diesel and comparatively priced. Using this fuel will mean your tyres and brake pads are more polluting.

Fossil fuel refining and usage will always be with us as literally the shirt on our backs relies on it and there are millions of people globally who rely on the jobs it creates. That's the bottom line and will always win the argument.

 

[cyberyacht]

Just announced, the U.K has been granted new oil & gas licences to drill 8o miles off the coast of Scotland !! Maybe wee'l get OUR OWN diesel at last ?? !!

Not a chance, Triky. Abu Hamza will rebuild Hadrian's Wall and do an Ian Smith UDI. We'll both probably have to follow Merve Gaskin's example and run on recycled chip fat.

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[Ernesto]

Hybrids produce more CO2 than a petrol engine which in turn produce more CO2 than a diesel engine. The EU are soon to increase RFL to reflect this and the UK will follow.

Forget about the planet as in truth it has nothing to do with it. It's about economics and the goalposts are changed to suit.

How can a 11 year old Euro 5 diesel 120d BMW be only £30 to tax? Politics... because it certainly isn't cleaner.

For EV's to become a true ICE replacement requires infrastructure which will cost more than HS2, It'll never happen and those areas which will see a half decent network will pay through the nose as it'll be privately owned like all our energy is.

EV propulsion requires a lot of rare earth minerals, they're rare for a reason. They're found in very small amounts. They're very hard and very expensive to mine and separate which in turn produces a lot of damage to the environment due to this process. When you only need mines for producing magnets for sensors, robotics, electronics and electric trains, the damage is low and the supply & demand chain is possible.

When you read that globally there'll be 350 million EV's on the roads by 2030 what impact will that level of mining have on our environment? The planet will become pock marked with hundreds, possibly thousands of small mining settlements which will ultimately be left abandoned as these rare earth seams are minuscule compared to the likes of gold, silver & ore.

These rare earths can't be recycled either and have a limited life as the magnetism they produce for such high temperatures in EV motors kills them.

There's a huge focus on battery life but when you couple this with motor life for the extended real world mileage we'll demand these motors will probably die before the energy which drives them does.

Today, in terms of wastage, 99% of vehicles, domestic white goods and other home tech is recycled. Waste to energy plants produce electricity which is vastly reducing landfill. This energy is fed into the national grid.

Yes we have a national grid capable of supply but the real issue is domestic, there are many, many thousands of houses and local substations which don't have the ability to cope with the power required. Houses built as late as 2015 need their domestic supply augmented to truly exploit the convenience of a wall mounted charger.

Realistic alternatives already available? Next year will see the first HVO pumps on our forecourts, pumps which are already proving popular in Ireland. For Euro 6 it's a direct replacement to diesel and comparatively priced. Using this fuel will mean your tyres and brake pads are more polluting.

Fossil fuel refining and usage will always be with us as literally the shirt on our backs relies on it and there are millions of people globally who rely on the jobs it creates. That's the bottom line and will always win the argument.

Interesting post . Couple of genuine questions
You mention EVs won’t replace ICE…and then outline how mining for 350m EV’s by 2030 will impact the earth? Is that not replacing - at least partially given it’s only 6 years away
Are you saying 1000’s of houses can’t run a 7kw wallcharger ? How do they cook dinner - most electric cookers take that ?

 

[robnchris]

and to get it to that “certain temperature” you have to heat it up with…..

Well any heating medium, which would come from Reboilers, Gas Furnaces, Super Heated Steam etc etc. definitely not an electric source.
Another point to make it that it is part of a distillation process so different products are taken from the column at different heights thus it is only part of the process, as the gases rise and get lighter products are still processed below and above the petrol tray, so not making petrol would make no difference to the energy used for that column.

 

[Gromett]

An EV motorhome - could it work if the battery was towed?

Why tow it? Just put it underneath. The reason we don't have 200KWh batteries in EVs is down to cost and weight.

The weight issue is solved as in the UK you can now drive a 4250KG vehicle on a 3500 licences if it is a commercial base vehicle EV.

 

[robnchris]

Diesel and petrol shortages happened this year. And last year. And several times in the past.

Some EVs can reverse charge. They can run a house for several days.

Good point, er but then you can't drive anywhere

 

[Mzracer]

How do they cook dinner - most electric cookers take that ?

A lot of people cook with gas !!

Whatever gas cookers are running for a lesser period of time than an EV takes to charge.

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[Ernesto]

Hybrids produce more CO2 than a petrol engine which in turn produce more CO2 than a diesel engine. The EU are soon to increase RFL to reflect this and the UK will follow.

Forget about the planet as in truth it has nothing to do with it. It's about economics and the goalposts are changed to suit.

How can a 11 year old Euro 5 diesel 120d BMW be only £30 to tax? Politics... because it certainly isn't cleaner.

For EV's to become a true ICE replacement requires infrastructure which will cost more than HS2, It'll never happen and those areas which will see a half decent network will pay through the nose as it'll be privately owned like all our energy is.

EV propulsion requires a lot of rare earth minerals, they're rare for a reason. They're found in very small amounts. They're very hard and very expensive to mine and separate which in turn produces a lot of damage to the environment due to this process. When you only need mines for producing magnets for sensors, robotics, electronics and electric trains, the damage is low and the supply & demand chain is possible.

When you read that globally there'll be 350 million EV's on the roads by 2030 what impact will that level of mining have on our environment? The planet will become pock marked with hundreds, possibly thousands of small mining settlements which will ultimately be left abandoned as these rare earth seams are minuscule compared to the likes of gold, silver & ore.

These rare earths can't be recycled either and have a limited life as the magnetism they produce for such high temperatures in EV motors kills them.

There's a huge focus on battery life but when you couple this with motor life for the extended real world mileage we'll demand these motors will probably die before the energy which drives them does.

Today, in terms of wastage, 99% of vehicles, domestic white goods and other home tech is recycled. Waste to energy plants produce electricity which is vastly reducing landfill. This energy is fed into the national grid.

Yes we have a national grid capable of supply but the real issue is domestic, there are many, many thousands of houses and local substations which don't have the ability to cope with the power required. Houses built as late as 2015 need their domestic supply augmented to truly exploit the convenience of a wall mounted charger.

Realistic alternatives already available? Next year will see the first HVO pumps on our forecourts, pumps which are already proving popular in Ireland. For Euro 6 it's a direct replacement to diesel and comparatively priced. Using this fuel will mean your tyres and brake pads are more polluting.

Fossil fuel refining and usage will always be with us as literally the shirt on our backs relies on it and there are millions of people globally who rely on the jobs it creates. That's the bottom line and will always win the argument.

I do agree with you that it’s all about economics….despite fossil fuels getting more subsidies than renewables almost every year since 2015, renewables are cheaper and getting cheaper. That is a compelling reason to decarbonise - and to stop paying the Arabs and Putin for energy

I am mystified by the high environmental hurdles people routinely put in renewables and EV’s way…. We’ve been chewing the planet up for 100 years producing oil and gas - it’s not like it’s a green fuel to produce. Why does the new, renewable energy source which in time could well be almost negligible cost to generate, have to be squeaky clean green as well for people to support it ?

 

[Ernesto]

A lot of people cook with gas !!

Whatever gas cookers are running for a lesser period of time than an EV takes to charge.

Right, so all the 1000’s of households that cant charge at 7kw are all fitted with gas cookers.
I don’t remember Currys asking me about my electrical supply when I last bought a cooker

Electric supplies are sized for a peak load … the amount of time is irrelevant if we’re talking domestic supply size ? You can’t have a supply that works for 1 hour, but if you use it for 4 hours it overheats and catches fire

 

[Mzracer]

Right, so all the 1000’s of households that cant charge at 7kw are all fitted with gas cookers.
I don’t remember Currys asking me about my electrical supply when I last bought a cooker

Electric supplies are sized for a peak load … the amount of time is irrelevant if we’re talking domestic supply size ?

Currys will worry about the supply to your house only when there is a problem.

Electrical supplies into a property are sized for peak load, you are quite right.

The supply along the whole street is not sized for peak load from all the properties and you know that very well but are not admitting what will become a problem.

If you are unsure on this just look at how spindly overhead supply cables are.

 

[Mzracer]

have to be squeaky clean green as well for people to support it ?

They don't it is the hypocrisy that gets a lot of people down.

Things such as night time charging, when a decent % of that power is coming from base load power stations, ask what is the fuel for base load?

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

Yeah dpd have 100 mile variants too.

it may surprise you to know that octopus get paid by the grid to smart charge and balance overnight load - it’s why their EV only intelligent tariff is such good value.

There’s no issue with installing EV chargers the issue is simply demand. The guy that installed my charger ( brother of a school friend) is booked for next 6 months with 2-3 installs a day and is now hiring 2 additional staff to cope.

The whole grid will die is nonsense - an electric shower uses 1.5 times the load an EV puts on when charging and a smart charger can lower load based on what car neeeds. You can’t tell me a lot of households don’t all have showers 7-8am before work and the grid dies! That’s all FUD as the facts are everyone in UK could have an EV and demand on grid would still be less than the 2010 demand which has dropped due to efficiency savings.

Electric showers are not usually fitted if you have a combi boiler so only time will tell how the grid copes.
You completely missed my point as the grid output is only half of the equation as the cable capacity is what will cause the issues.
Time will tell what the reality is but my experience in industrial applications of large numbers of li-ion charging has resulted in measures being taken to avoid major capital expenditure on upgrading supply capacity.

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[Ernesto]

Currys will worry about the supply to your house only when there is a problem.

Electrical supplies into a property are sized for peak load, you are quite right.

The supply along the whole street is not sized for peak load from all the properties and you know that very well but are not admitting what will become a problem.

If you are unsure on this just look at how spindly overhead supply cables are.

I dont know very well at all .. which is why I am asking ! i was hoping for more than squinting at the cables in the street ...all ours are underground here

Electric cookers typically run off a 30 amp fuse - maybe the issue is the cooker, plus an EV at 7Kw running at the same time (which I make to be around 60 amps is too much ? Are there 1000's and 1000's of houses out there with main board fuses less than 60 amps

 

[TonyEmm]

You may be suprised just how quickly being 70 happens.

In my case, that was a good while ago!

 

[starquake]

The cheap off peak power will not last for long as the generating companies will see that this is not off peak anymore but has value that needs squeezing.

I think they said this in the 70's and 80's about nuclear power and economy 7. It's not gone.

Fact is with wind generation likely being peak (for 10 ish days a year) of 3x the entire UK national grid in only 2 years time, it's clear at time prices will go negative and people will be paid to use electricity, produce h2 etc.

Personally I think exact opposite, and I own shares in a wind farm ... so have put money where mouth is such that my own usage is entirely self-funded (including the EV). Thats a hedge for if I'm wrong, as if I'm wrong and prices do go high, well my own usage is entirely dealt with by my own generation (I own about 3kw of actual generation asset of part of 9 2.5Mw turbines).

 

[Mzracer]

I dont know very well at all .. which is why I am asking ! i was hoping for more than squinting at the cables in the street ...all ours are underground here

Electric cookers typically run off a 30 amp fuse - maybe the issue is the cooker, plus an EV at 7Kw running at the same time (which I make to be around 60 amps is too much ? Are there 1000's and 1000's of houses out there with main board fuses less than 60 amps

I can't quite make out if you are trying to be smart or genuinely interested? I will go with my generous side and believe that you are interested.

A 63A incoming cable to a house is around 24mm diameter but that has armour protection bulking it out a bit, so probably think of 18mm diameter for the cable if it was overhead, now think of a number of houses supplied from an overhead cable and you can then see that all of these houses will not be able to demand their 63A at the same time. All cables are larger underground because they are armoured. There is a lot of simplification in this paragraph but what I am saying is that a supply cable for a number of dwellings charging EV's will be big, hence my statement of look at the size of the cables.

Houses usually have either 63A or 100A incoming supplies.

The 7Kw EV charger will take around 34A so that leaves us with around 29A to play with, the cooker will take up a big portion of that but not the total 30A that is just what it is fused at. However if then a 3Kw kettle was switched on and someone was also making their morning toast then close to all of that 63A supply is used up, however the fuse will likely not blow at 63A if only seeing that load for a short period of time. All quite tight and remember that the 7Kw EV charge will take place over many hours, so effectively it is block booking quite a chunk of the available power and not leaving very much for the existing demands. It has to be said that a lot of vehicle charging will take place at night time but this is not guaranteed.

As cars and batteries get bigger then the 7Kw figure will likely increase, it is difficult to see how it will not.

Having said this quite a few houses have 100A supplies so each houses load becomes less of an issue.

The point that I was really trying to make and clearly not doing a very good job is that if every house on a street was taking its load at say around 60A which we could see was quite easy to get to (cooker, EV, kettles etc), then the local supply network fuses will blow because that network has not been built for continuous loads like we are talking about.

I saw this happen some years ago at a family Xmas dinner, all the houses in the village had been upgraded over many years and the area was quite affluent, everyone was canning the ovens and no surprise to me there was a local power cut because the local network was not designed for this continuous high load, this self same thing will happen with excessive EV charging.

Now you will tell me that there will have to be network upgrades (bigger supply cables) but these will be the very same ones that you mention are buried, doing this over a lot of urban areas is a big and very expensive job.

There are 33 million cars registered in the UK and I guess that around half of those are used in anyone day, that is one hell of a lot of cars to charge. Additionally it is worth mentioning that a good number of the 850,000 EV's are doing more local journeys. I am not anti EV, we are even considering one, I am just trying to be realistic for the majority of the population.

 

[starquake]

I dont know very well at all .. which is why I am asking ! i was hoping for more than squinting at the cables in the street ...all ours are underground here

Electric cookers typically run off a 30 amp fuse - maybe the issue is the cooker, plus an EV at 7Kw running at the same time (which I make to be around 60 amps is too much ? Are there 1000's and 1000's of houses out there with main board fuses less than 60 amps

Nope, and all electricity providers are more than happy to give you a 80A or 100A fuse if it's not. And they'll also unloop your supply if needed in most cases free if you getting an EV. All sorted by the sparky installing your charger in most cases.

On our street of 16 houses, we would need to have near ALL have to be both charging, using cookers, and having a shower at once to get CLOSE to using the entire supply (I've been reliably informed its a 200A 3 phase with 4 houses on each phase, so 50A peak per house with no diversity if everyone maxed)).. It's actually rare for everyone to be even home at once. Reality is like not everyone cooking at once, most people don't need to charge every day. Us doing 15k miles a year, we charge, maybe if lucky once a week and three times has been our "busiest week" when we done 1500 miles in a week when we picked up the moho from Wales doing two trips from home to there arriving home empty each time.

One question if you doubt this -> do you fill up with fuel daily? from empty to full? The stats say average milage is 20 miles per day, that is around 45 mins of charging on my car at 7.2kw, or 90 mins at 3.6 (same as a kettle boiling).

Remember the chargers these days do not all turn on bang on the cheap period (they ramp up or start randomly in a 0-30 min time period), neither do they use the peak charging power UNLESS they need it to fully fill the battery becuase you've told the charger you need max rate now, OR you are leaving in 30 mins (as they are smart enough on my charger to max charge in the 30 mins prior to departure, which warms the battery to give you more effeciency as you drive, it makes a massive difference in winter!). If your entire street leaves for work at 7am, yes you may have a point though!

The premise of basically saying the equivalent of "everyone will fully charge every night", use their cooker at same time, and have showers in our case is plainly nonsense unless everyone on your street does ~ 280 miles a day and arrives home empty every night. Even if the street had same cabling with double the houses I'd wager there would not be much diversity issues on our street given on an average night only 2/3 of the residents are even here (and if they were only would need a charge in 1 in 7 days anyhow.

The real grid issues in our locality are things like too much solar -> thats a real thing in these parts, the substation doing near nothing because the grid is supplied locally during day is becoming an issue, and yes, solar installs are being restricted by grid planning (thats why a friend of mine moved from Solar to EV charging installs). EV charging is not restricted here as they need to USE the solar.. And there will, yes, be some substations and local wiring that needs reinforcment in parts, but the reality is peak EV demand is broadly same as ovens and we don't all cook same time.

And remember none of this is talking about old "dumb" EV charging, which installers these days are not permitted to install out of interest.

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[Mzracer]

Nope, and all electricity providers are more than happy to give you a 80A or 100A fuse if it's not. And they'll also unloop your supply if needed in most cases free if you getting an EV. All sorted by the sparky installing your charger in most cases.

On our street of 16 houses, we would need to have near ALL have to be both charging, using cookers, and having a shower at once to get CLOSE to using the entire supply (I've been reliably informed its a 200A 3 phase with 4 houses on each phase, so 50A peak per house with no diversity if everyone maxed)).. It's actually rare for everyone to be even home at once. Reality is like not everyone cooking at once, most people don't need to charge every day. Us doing 15k miles a year, we charge, maybe if lucky once a week and three times has been our "busiest week" when we done 1500 miles in a week when we picked up the moho from Wales doing two trips from home to there arriving home empty each time.

One question if you doubt this -> do you fill up with fuel daily? from empty to full? The stats say average milage is 20 miles per day, that is around 45 mins of charging on my car at 7.2kw, or 90 mins at 3.6 (same as a kettle boiling).

Remember the chargers these days do not all turn on bang on the cheap period (they ramp up or start randomly in a 0-30 min time period), neither do they use the peak charging power UNLESS they need it to fully fill the battery becuase you've told the charger you need max rate now, OR you are leaving in 30 mins (as they are smart enough on my charger to max charge in the 30 mins prior to departure, which warms the battery to give you more effeciency as you drive, it makes a massive difference in winter!). If your entire street leaves for work at 7am, yes you may have a point though!

The premise of basically saying the equivalent of "everyone will fully charge every night", use their cooker at same time, and have showers in our case is plainly nonsense unless everyone on your street does ~ 280 miles a day and arrives home empty every night. Even if the street had same cabling with double the houses I'd wager there would not be much diversity issues on our street given on an average night only 2/3 of the residents are even here (and if they were only would need a charge in 1 in 7 days anyhow.

The real grid issues in our locality are things like too much solar -> thats a real thing in these parts, the substation doing near nothing because the grid is supplied locally during day is becoming an issue, and yes, solar installs are being restricted by grid planning (thats why a friend of mine moved from Solar to EV charging installs). EV charging is not restricted here as they need to USE the solar.. And there will, yes, be some substations and local wiring that needs reinforcment in parts, but the reality is peak EV demand is broadly same as ovens and we don't all cook same time.

And remember none of this is talking about old "dumb" EV charging, which installers these days are not permitted to install out of interest.

You make good points diversity but a few busy families charging two big cars will soon eat that 200A.

I might be being pessimistic but we are only scratching the tip of the EV infrastructure issues.