Wrong batteries??

[PhilandMena]

I removed 2 Banner stop/start batteries on my Autotrail and replaced them with 2 Leoch Pure Lead carbon ones as suggested by Phil.

Couldn’t fault the performance of them at all and after 2 years they were still as good as the day I fitted them.

But boy we’re they heavy so bear that in mind if payload is an issue, If we didn’t have Lithium now i’d def have them again

Thanks for the update ! I think your the first Funster who has installed these batteries, used them and given feedback to our membership.
As an aside, I can think of at least one member who may find this difficult to accept.

 

[Al n Val]

Thanks for the update ! I think your the first Funster who has installed these batteries, used them and given feedback to our membership.
As an aside, I can think of at least one member who may find this difficult to accept.

I’ve mentioned them before Phil in a different thread over a year ago, I sang there praises then and still will.

I remember they had a very fast recharge rate as well and quite a high cycle no. Similar qualities to lithium at the time but a quarter of the cost although things are changing as I type this lol

In layman’s terms they were great and offered stellar performance at a great price

 

[iain26]

Some information for you about these batteries. There is also a cheaper version (LDC2) just been released too.

12V 115AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon Deep Cycle Battery (LDC12-115-G31-DT) (SLCA-12130 DT) - Alpha Batteries

12V 115AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon deep cycle battery – LDC12-115-G31DT What Makes Lead Carbon AGM Superior to other AGMs? […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries

12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/ldc12-115-g31-dt_1.pdf

But if they are called AGM surely the charging profile is not going to match a standard lead acid.

I am stuck with the Sargent PX300 charger so not sure that would really charge these properly.

Edit to add.
The Alpha product sheet says “Please ensure your charging method can accommodate AGM batteries as charging at non-AGM charge settings can adversely affect the life of the battery.”

 

[PhilandMena]

But if they are called AGM surely the charging profile is not going to match a standard lead acid.

I am stuck with the Sargent PX300 charger so not sure that would really charge these properly.

1. Have a look at the charging profile in the data sheet.
2. The Sargent PX300 charger will be perfect for this battery. I spoke to Leoch about both of these batteries and they said the only danger may come from being charged at too high a voltage, .e.g. an equalisation charge which should be prevented. The Sargent PX300 charger only has 3 stages and would be ideal for these batteries.

 

[autorouter]

I am stuck with the Sargent PX300 charger so not sure that would really charge these properly.

It's got a switch on it. Switch it off. Get a good smart mains charger with settable charging profiles, and connect it directly to the batteries, with a suitable inline fuse.
Edit: Just seen PhilandMena's post so maybe not necessary to get a new charger, but it's always an option.

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[VXman]

Why do people know all about AGM batteries as the Hab battery to get when you almost could not buy a worse battery!

A standard sealed lead acid hab battery is better than AGM unless you can afford Gel which are better or Lithium which are now the best but most expensive choice.

Please don’t buy AGM - very overrated - loads of tales of woe about them on here!

Why do big, international, professional (presumably knowledgeable) motorhome manufacturers still fit them. Mine seem to be functioning well after 2 years of fairly intense use.

 

[PhilandMena]

Just for clarity. Sargent PX 300 charger output and Leoch data sheet detail.

During stage 1 the battery voltage is increased gradually while the current is limited to start the charging process and protect the battery. At stage 2 the voltage rises to 14.4V (Vboost) to deliver the bulk charge to the battery. When the battery is charged, the voltage is decreased at stage 3 to 13.6V (Vflt) to deliver a float charge to maintain the battery in the fully charged state. The charger can be left switched on continuously as required. The battery charger / power converter can also provide power to the leisure equipment when the mains supply is connected. This module supplies DC to the leisure equipment up to a maximum of 25 Amps (300 Watts), therefore the available power is distributed between the leisure load and the battery, under these conditions the charge indicator will show Red.

Leoch Pure Lead Carbon battery charging data.

Float = 13.62 V
Equalisation = 14.1 - 14.4 V (although the data sheet states equalisation this has been accepted as meaning Boost)

 

[PhilandMena]

Why do big, international, professional (presumably knowledgeable) motorhome manufacturers still fit them. Mine seem to be functioning well after 2 years of fairly intense use.

The real issue here IMO is end users being mislead by a bunch of distributers/manufacturers who knowingly provide false data about their product in order to make a sale and increase profit. End users have been let down time and time again to the point that there is very little confidence and lots of confusion when trying to choose a leisure battery that is as described.
Even the NCC Battery verification scheme which was promoted to give end users a guide to buying the right kind of battery for there needs was soon exposed as nothing more than a marketing tool for distributers and manufactures with some claims on battery performance an outright lie. I'm of the view theses shoddy practices will continue and end users will still be mislead until the market place introduces a leisure battery standard (ideally an international standard) that covers build and performance criteria.

 

[iain26]

Just for clarity. Sargent PX 300 charger output and Leoch data sheet detail.

During stage 1 the battery voltage is increased gradually while the current is limited to start the charging process and protect the battery. At stage 2 the voltage rises to 14.4V (Vboost) to deliver the bulk charge to the battery. When the battery is charged, the voltage is decreased at stage 3 to 13.6V (Vflt) to deliver a float charge to maintain the battery in the fully charged state. The charger can be left switched on continuously as required. The battery charger / power converter can also provide power to the leisure equipment when the mains supply is connected. This module supplies DC to the leisure equipment up to a maximum of 25 Amps (300 Watts), therefore the available power is distributed between the leisure load and the battery, under these conditions the charge indicator will show Red.

Leoch Pure Lead Carbon battery charging data.

Float = 13.62 V
Equalisation = 14.1 - 14.4 V (although the data sheet states equalisation this has been accepted as meaning Boost)

So what would you suggest the Solar settings should be - LA or AGM?
I have Epever Xtra and there LA setting goes up to 15.0v, Equalise 14.6, Boost 14.4, Float 13.8v.
Equalise duration is 120mins and Boost duration is 120mins.
The settings can of course be fine tuned using the USER settings Option.

 

[PhilandMena]

So what would you suggest the Solar settings should be - LA or AGM?
I have Epever Xtra and there LA setting goes up to 15.0v, Equalise 14.6, Boost 14.4, Float 13.8v.
Equalise duration is 120mins and Boost duration is 120mins.
The settings can of course be fine tuned using the USER settings Option.

You have answered your own question with USER settings option.

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[SeanF1]

I have 2 X 110ah AGM batteries with 300ah solar and DCDC charger and 2kw inverter. 18 months in and all working extremely well. When off grid, we run a nespresso machine which gets heavy use and truma and fridge on gas but using 12v for fan etc. Batteries working no problems.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

I have 2 X 110ah AGM batteries with 300ah solar and DCDC charger and 2kw inverter. 18 months in and all working extremely well. When off grid, we run a nespresso machine which gets heavy use and truma and fridge on gas but using 12v for fan etc. Batteries working no problems.

Are you abroad (ie in the sun) most of the time?
Mine seemed to be fine in the summer but are really struggling in this crap weather

 

[SeanF1]

Are you abroad (ie in the sun) most of the time?
Mine seemed to be fine in the summer but are really struggling in this crap weather

Currently in Spain, but have used them loads in the UK too. Spent 10 days in Wales in April last year and long weekend on the Kent coast in March, had 3 nights offgrid in the New Forest in August. Takes longer to charge in the off season UK but definitely do the job.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

Currently in Spain, but have used them loads in the UK too. Spent 10 days in Wales in April last year and long weekend on the Kent coast in March, had 3 nights offgrid in the New Forest in August. Takes longer to charge in the off season UK but definitely do the job.

I'm wondering if I've killed them by leaving van on hookup for 3 months over winter (mainly to leave heater on low) or if they've just come to the end of their life - or are they just the wrong type of batteries - stop/start.

 

[SeanF1]

I'm wondering if I've killed them by leaving van on hookup for 3 months over winter (mainly to leave heater on low) or if they've just come to the end of their life - or are they just the wrong type of batteries - stop/start.

Shouldn't have. What charger have you got ?

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[TheLifeofBrian]

Shouldn't have. What charger have you got ?

CTEK system with solar.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

Ok I'm home now & got some proper kit
After being on hookup all night I've tested the one battery & it doesn't look good
This tester puts a 25amp load on.
It lasted 9 minutes before giving up - 5% life in it
I'm just trying the other one now & then going to put it on a big charger to see if that makes any difference

 

[PhilandMena]

That looks like its goosed! The other one will be the same if they have been wired together from new.

Broken Link Removed

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

That looks like its goosed! The other one will be the same if they have been wired together from new.

Yup - looks like I need 2 new batteries
Anyone any recommendations for suppliers?

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

The storage capacity of batteries deteriorates as they are cycled (charged / discharged). Heavier the use of the battery the faster the deterioration. Lead-acid batteries (and AGM is a derivative of these) don't like being discharged more than about 50% of their total. Go beyond that a few times and their ability to accept and hold a charge is compromised. It's down to the chemistry and that to take a charge there are chemical reactions between the lead and solution, and over time the materials have deteriorated as the reactions take place.

Most batteries also have a rate at which they can provide current, or accept charge. In theory batteries classed as leisure should be better able to offer a lengthy gradual discharge, and charge whereas the stop start engine battery is better at a high load for short period. Realistically, I doubt most lead-acid and AGM is really that different.

Lead-Acid voltages can be deceptive as to the state of charge. You need to let a battery settle, an hour or so, after a charge / discharge for the voltage to stabilise. 12.7V would indicate a full charge, subject to the capacity the battery can at that time hold. 12.0V is just under 50%. To charge a battery, you are putting in a bit more voltage, and of course current, than the battery would operate at. Hence your solar and even mains charger creating apparent voltages of 14V or more. Decent charging systems will also have a bulk (battery is being charged), absorption (almost full) and Float (maintaining full charge) phase, where the input voltages and currents change, float, being a lot less voltage than bulk. There may also be an equalisation option, to try and correct batteries that are perhaps struggling.

In a similar vein, as the batteries work to give out a current, a chemical reaction is taking place. Too heavy a discharge the lead plates in the battery can actually twist and buckle, and the acid can start to boil (hence the need in non sealed batteries for these to have ventilation). The battery voltage appears to drop, and later may recover a bit as the reactions stop.

It can take some time to recharge batteries. If say you have 100Ah capacity (for your good condition battery), and you have used 50%, so need 50AH, but can only charge at 20A off your charging system you will need 2.5hours. If you have solar, say a 100W panel, then it's maximum output would be around 8A, so you'd need over 6 hours to recharge, but at this time of year you may be lucky to get 75% of that panel for an hour, and then a lot less during the earlier and later daylight hours dwindling to nowt.

Some charging systems can be monitored so you can see the amount of wattage that has been put in, and used. This can help you understand the state of your batteries, what you have available to use.

This all suggest the batteries have had it. They are now well down on their capacity from original manufacturer charge rating. The significant drop in voltage during discharge shows they are working too hard to provide the electricity. The voltage during charging is the product of the charger, not battery. If having apparently had discharge to a too low voltage, and yet they seem to stabilise to a correct voltage after charging for a short time you know something is wrong.

Note that the charging voltages of lead-acid, differ from desired charging profiles of AGM, GEL, Lithium. If changing battery chemistry check your charging systems are compatible.

Now I have actually put a tester on them - they are obviously buggered

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[Coolcats]

I have to say we only have one solar panel & I don't know what rating it is but it's performing really well - looking at the controller it was putting power out even in the rain/clouds!

View attachment 731065

The panel will produce power but just a little context: My home has the ability to produce 6kw per hour currently it is raining and producing 882 watts 692 watts are feeding my batteries which have a capacity of 10Kwh and are 70% charged. My home is taking the remaining 200 watts or there about.

Your roof panel may be a 100 w panel so your batteries may be getting something like 15 watts charge. On a good sunny day they will be bathing in the sunlight and probably charged by 11:00 am but on a day like today they may only be 80% full by the time the sun goes down. Which may have been the case for you when you started putting the TV on and lights. Plus you can’t use the batteries below a certain charge point so you may have only had 20-30% of the battery to play with last evening if you did not have a fully charged battery they may have started at 70% and give you warnings at 50%

So it’s not they are bad batteries it’s just how the state of charge is when you use them

My home Lithium mid winter if I use the oven washing machine dish washer TV etc then by 9pm my batteries will be near 20% charge state which means they start pulling power in from the network and the I charge them at the cheaper overnight rate.

Today my batteries should be fully charged by 6 pm as the sun has just come out and I’m getting close to 2kw

 

[PhilandMena]

Yup - looks like I need 2 new batteries
Anyone any recommendations for suppliers?

View attachment 732949

Alpha and Tanya are worth looking at IMO.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

The panel will produce power but just a little context: My home has the ability to produce 6kw per hour currently it is raining and producing 882 watts 692 watts are feeding my batteries which have a capacity of 10Kwh and are 70% charged. My home is taking the remaining 200 watts or there about.

Your roof panel may be a 100 w panel so your batteries may be getting something like 15 watts charge. On a good sunny day they will be bathing in the sunlight and probably charged by 11:00 am but on a day like today they may only be 80% full by the time the sun goes down. Which may have been the case for you when you started putting the TV on and lights. Plus you can’t use the batteries below a certain charge point so you may have only had 20-30% of the battery to play with last evening if you did not have a fully charged battery they may have started at 70% and give you warnings at 50%

So it’s not they are bad batteries it’s just how the state of charge is when you use them

Yes, I'm going to give them both a full charge separately & then test them again but not holding out much hope.
I'm looking at Alpha and Tanya as we speak

 

[Mitchell]

I have to say we only have one solar panel & I don't know what rating it is but it's performing really well - looking at the controller it was putting power out even in the rain/clouds!

View attachment 731065

I have 2x gel leisure batteries , no solar and can go at least 1 week with no Hooke up

 

[wfdTamar]

I did a lot of research looking for a battery to run a 240 volt fridge off (via inverter of course) and was all set to buy the Leoch. It looked almost as good as a lithium, but heavier. I’ve seen a few variants on the tech recently. It looks good and affordable (for the life you should get out of it).

If you went for something like that you could very likely get away with just one battery and that could be better.

Monitoring battery state just by voltage is very crude, particularly if you are going down near its maximum desired discharge point. I would install a battery monitor that uses a shunt. This is a much more accurate measure of what’s going in and out of the battery - gives a percentage of battery remaining.

The use you’ve described isn’t very demanding. One battery should do it IF it’s recharged through the day and I think that’s what the problem has been. Trying to recharge two batteries from one solar panel.

Also bad idea to use just one of those gifted AGM’s with one of your old. Sounds like you need a new battery. Get one good one, a battery monitor and maybe consider more solar (Look at your solar controller and what charge profile it’s set to).

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[trevor 87]

Sorry to hijack the post … so if I have a 110amh battery that after two hours off charge shows a steady voltage of over 12.8 v but only last a couple of hours when used in the van ( TV and some lights) what technically could cause that ?

It's knackered as the saying goes Voltage is just part of the equation the amp hours are the other part basicly it can accept a charge volts /amps but is failing to hold the amps ( fully charge it up and then take it to a place that sells battery's and they will load test it for you ( tells you if it's good or scrap )

 

[Libellula]

Wow, so much to take in about solar/batteries. My van will arrive with a two panel system which I am going to have to learn. Thanks for all this Information Funsters. I guess I’ll be taking you all along with me on my first trip!!

 

[wp1234]

It's knackered as the saying goes Voltage is just part of the equation the amp hours are the other part basicly it can accept a charge volts /amps but is failing to hold the amps ( fully charge it up and then take it to a place that sells battery's and they will load test it for you ( tells you if it's good or scrap )

So given they are probably duff what in a Motorhome could knacker two batteries so quickly given minimum cycles and charger seems to be working fine . Could one duff battery damage another ?

 

[Lenny HB]

So given they are probably duff what in a Motorhome could knacker two batteries so quickly given minimum cycles and charger seems to be working fine . Could one duff battery damage another ?

Misstreatment is the biggest cause of leisure battery failure.

The following will shorten their life:

Discharging at higher than the C5 rate.
Over discharging, discharging more than 50% DOD (20% for Gel)
Not charging them fully.
Leaving them too long without a charge. Charging with incorrect charging profile for the type of battery.

And AGM's just fail for no reason.

One duff battery will drag the other one down but shouldn't damage it.

 

[autorouter]

CTEK system with solar.

Is this a mains-powered charger?

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