Wrong batteries??

[PhilandMena]

As a general rule of thumb I would agree with all of that. However, the charging profile of Leoch pure lead carbon batteties is the same as that for lead acid batteties and they can safely be discharged below 50 % DOD. Without damage to the battery.

 

[pappajohn]

Yes but we have 2 leisure batteries - I would hope they would last longer than that?

Two batteries but still only 100amps to play with.

 

[Spriddler]

I have tested both current ( no pun intended!) Batteries and after a full charge & being left for 6 hours disconnected both read over 13 volts - so they are obviously ok..

Your 'over 13v' is the batteries' voltage at that moment and not their capacity (Amp/hours of useable power).

 

[autorouter]

I have tested both current ( no pun intended!) Batteries and after a full charge & being left for 6 hours disconnected both read over 13 volts - so they are obviously ok.

How are you giving them a full charge? As several people have already said, the voltage during charging is no indication of the battery state of charge.

For comparison, a smart mains charger will go through 3 stages: bulk, absorption and float. It monitors and controls the battery voltage and current so it knows the state of charge.

Bulk charging is with a constant amps, the maximum the charger can output. If the battery is flat, the voltage will be somewhere between 13V and 14V. The voltage gradually rises over several hours, until it reaches the absorption voltage, about 14.5V. At that point the battery is about 80% charged. When it reaches the absorption voltage, the charger flips into the absorption stage.

Absorption charging is with a constant voltage, the absorption voltage. The amps gradually drops over several hours from the max output down to a predefined limit, usually about 1/10 of the max amps. When the amps has dropped low enough, the charger decides the battery is now 100% full, so it flips to the float stage.

Float charging is also with constant voltage, about 13.5V. The idea is that the charger just maintains the battery in 100% charge, with a very small current, a fraction of an amp, required to compensate for any internal self-discharge. In theory the battery can stay in float charging mode indefinitely.

If the battery is already full when charging starts, the charger will cycle through the 3 stages quickly, and will get to float charging in a few minutes, rather that hours.

Most modern chargers are 3-stage smart chargers, but there are still some that are simple fixed voltage chargers. What make/model is your mains charger? The CTEK setup in the pic is a multi-stage charger, using power from the alternator and/or the solar panels. It's difficult to know when the battery is fully charged with that setup, unless you look at the voltage while charging,and notice when it flips down to the float voltage. It's a lot easier with a mains charger, left on for several hours/overnight, because the supply is steady and you can follow the charging stages by watching the voltage.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

Wow! Thanks everyone for their comments
Unfortunately I'm away in my van for another week or so & have no way of 'fully' charging the batteries until I am home so can only go off the charging methods I have now I've solar, mains & alternator.
I was really trying to get you opinions on:
1- are stop/start batteries really deep cycle & suitable for leisure use?
2 - how do you know when they are knackered?
3 - am I asking too much of them using TV (Avtex) for a few hours & then the heating for another few hours?

I would also like to say I have been given another pair of batteries (AGM) - love them or hate them they were free which were reading about 9 volts (so probably knackered) & I have changed one of my old batteries for one of the replacements & after 2 days the replacement is reading 12.5 volts & the original is still reading 13.
I know they are not under load etc but I only have limited choices whilst in my van.
All comments gratefully received

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[Lenny HB]

If they were down at 9v probably in a worse state than your current ones.
Struggle by until you get home then take all 4 to the scrappie you will get about 50 quid for them.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

How are you giving them a full charge? As several people have already said, the voltage during charging is no indication of the battery state of charge.

I have been on EHU or traveling with alternator charging plus having solar and all and as you point out using the CTEK controller so not really any other way of knowing apart from voltage

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

As a general rule of thumb I would agree with all of that. However, the charging profile of Leoch pure lead carbon batteties is the same as that for lead acid batteties and they can safely be discharged below 50 % DOD. Without damage to the battery.

Thanks - I'll have a look at them.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

Two batteries but still only 100amps to play with.

Without sounding thick - where do you get 100 amps from?

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

Your 'over 13v' is the batteries' voltage at that moment and not their capacity (Amp/hours of useable power).

I have no other way of measuring them - what do you suggest?

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[TheLifeofBrian]

If they were down at 9v probably in a worse state than your current ones.
Struggle by until you get home then take all 4 to the scrappie you will get about 50 quid for them.

Agreed but I'd rather find a way of checking them than just scrapping them & forking out £400 plus !!

 

[autorouter]

1- are stop/start batteries really deep cycle & suitable for leisure use?

It depends on the usage. Some users have quite low amps demand, and in that case gel batteries will probably give more use time, and can safely be discharged to a lower level, about 20%, without deterioration. However other users with high intermittent amps demand, using an inverter for microwave/hair dryer/coffee machine, will be better with a stop/start or dual-usage battery. There's not a tremendous difference in the performance of the battery, it's just that the battery life before it doesn't hold enough charge will be different.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

That battery is suitable as a leisure battery and is AGM. I think you'll be trying to find room for more solar soon ,

Can I ask why you think that please?
I was specifically told they weren't.
(I was also told specially that I was using my comfortnatic gearbox wrong & I wasn't )

 

[Lenny HB]

Agreed but I'd rather find a way of checking them than just scrapping them & forking out £400 plus !!

80ah Gels are about £160 each at the mo.

Here is how to test them:

First charge the battery fully and leave it to settle for an hour then:-
Disconnect all charging methods.

For example if it's a 100a/h battery load it with a 5 amp load and run for 5 hours, this will represent a 25% discharge. (adjust load/time to suit the size of the battery)
Disconnect the load and leave to stand for at least 30 min then measure the voltage.
Repeat the test and you will have discharged the battery to 50%.
You can repeat again then it will be 75% discharged.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

It depends on the usage. Some users have quite low amps demand, and in that case gel batteries will probably give more use time, and can safely be discharged to a lower level, about 20%, without deterioration. However other users with high intermittent amps demand, using an inverter for microwave/hair dryer/coffee machine, will be better with a stop/start or dual-usage battery. There's not a tremendous difference in the performance of the battery, it's just that the battery life before it doesn't hold enough charge will be different.

Thanks. We were using them the end of last year & they seemed to be fine but the last 3 months have just been plugged into hookup outside the house keeping the heater running. I'm trying to work out if that has damaged them or if they just aren't suitable. We haven't been using anything that would draw heavy current apart from Avtex TV, lights & blower for the gas heating.
Are they ok & we're asking/using too much power or do I need to change them??

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[TheLifeofBrian]

80ah Gels are about £160 each at the Mo.

Here is how to test them:

First charge the battery fully and leave it to settle for an hour then:-
Disconnect all charging methods.

For example if it's a 100a/h battery load it with a 5 amp load and run for 5 hours, this will represent a 25% discharge. (adjust load/time to suit the size of the battery)
Disconnect the load and leave to stand for at least 30 min then measure the voltage.
Repeat the test and you will have discharged the battery to 50%.
You can repeat again then it will be 75% discharged.

View attachment 731248

Thanks Lenny HB but I haven't got any way of checking that whilst I'm away but will definitely try it when I get back

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

As a general rule of thumb I would agree with all of that. However, the charging profile of Leoch pure lead carbon batteties is the same as that for lead acid batteties and they can safely be discharged below 50 % DOD. Without damage to the battery.

Sorry but what is DOD?

 

[Lenny HB]

Thanks Lenny HB but I haven't got any way of checking that whilst I'm away but will definitely try it when I get back

You could do it if you are on EHU and use lights, TV etc., as a load but it's a slow process and best to do each battery seperately so probably best left until home.

Our failed in Greece we managed to get by with 200 Watts of solar and not using the TV.

 

[Lenny HB]

Sorry but what is DOD?

Depth of discharge.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

I had Banner AGM in the first Autotrail I had but they did not last long. Techno used to like Hankook sealed lead acid and I had a pair of those which lasted 5 years then I had a pair of Varta sealed lead acid which are still going strong but I have not long changed to Lithium.

I've bought a lottery ticket

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[Lenny HB]

Without sounding thick - where do you get 100 amps from?

Max recommended discharge of 50% so if you have 2x100 ah batteries it's recommended you don't discharge below 50% which would be 100 ah, Gels can be taken to 20%.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

Not really, I think your being fooled by the voltage coming from the charger and/ or the solar panel. This is what your seeing rather than the true state of the batteries. It will take many hours to fully charge a depleted battery and its very difficult to measure a battery state when thete is a load on it.

I think you may be right but I haven't really got another way of checking them apart from leaving them on charge for 2 days including solar. I really need to try giving them a load separately but we're living in the van!

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

Max recommended discharge of 50% so if you have 2x100 ah batteries it's recommended you don't discharge below 50% which would be 100 ah, Gels can be taken to 20%.

I need to do more homework - I thought AGM & GEL batteries were the same.

 

[Barti Ddu]

Has the TV actually turned off, the lights gone out, or the heating fan stopped whirring at any point? If not - then you're golden. Why the worrying!

Actually, I'm not convinced that your batteries are kapput. Just like the voltage will read higher than the actual standing voltage when charging, it will also read lower than the actual standing voltage when discharging. If you're not on EHU, and it's after sunset so no solar input, and you've got the TV on, the lights on and the heating fan running, there will be a significant voltage drop across the battery, just as you are experiencing. Once all the loads are turned off, check the voltage again after 30 minutes and I suspect it's significantly higher. In particular, the fan for blown air heating can cause the voltage to read lower.

I've got a Victron Smart Sense Battery monitor which graphs the voltage of my leisure battery over time and it is interesting to see the voltage drop caused by running various appliances, and how quickly the voltage recovers when the appliances are turned off.

 

[TheLifeofBrian]

You could do it if you are on EHU and use lights, TV etc., as a load but it's a slow process and best to do each battery seperately so probably best left until home.

Our failed in Greece we managed to get by with 200 Watts of solar and not using the TV.

I'm very worried the wife won't like it if we're in a pub carpark & we have to use torches & cuddle together for warmth! I think I'll wait till we get home

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[TheLifeofBrian]

Has the TV actually turned off, the lights gone out, or the heating fan stopped whirring at any point? If not - then you're golden. Why the worrying!

Actually, I'm not convinced that your batteries are kapput. Just like the voltage will read higher than the actual standing voltage when charging, it will also read lower than the actual standing voltage when discharging. If you're not on EHU, and it's after sunset so no solar input, and you've got the TV on, the lights on and the heating fan running, there will be a significant voltage drop across the battery, just as you are experiencing. Once all the loads are turned off, check the voltage again after 30 minutes and I suspect it's significantly higher. In particular, the fan for blown air heating can cause the voltage to read lower.

I've got a Victron Smart Sense Battery monitor which graphs the voltage of my leisure battery over time and it is interesting to see the voltage drop caused by running various appliances, and how quickly the voltage recovers when the appliances are turned off.

I agree Barti Ddu. I don't think they are kapput.
I'm just trying to work out if they aren't the best type of battery for this use - or I'm just asking too much if them??
We used them last year & they ran the TV etc for several hours before flashing red symbols appeared in the display but after 3 months on permanent hook up at home I'm just wondering if I've degraded then or need to change them before we go away for 3 months & don't have the option!

 

[dunnah01]

I have to say we only have one solar panel & I don't know what rating it is but it's performing really well - looking at the controller it was putting power out even in the rain/clouds!

View attachment 731065

If it's rainy and cloudy then you'll really struggle to get enough back into any battery with solar this time of year unless you're outside the UK somewhere. You'll need to see the 14v charge for quite a few hours to replenish the power that the heater motor uses to blow the gas warmed air around through the night.

 

[PhilandMena]

Thanks - I'll have a look at them.

Some information for you about these batteries. There is also a cheaper version (LDC2) just been released too.

12V 115AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon Deep Cycle Battery (LDC12-115-G31-DT) (SLCA-12130 DT) - Alpha Batteries

12V 115AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon deep cycle battery – LDC12-115-G31DT What Makes Lead Carbon AGM Superior to other AGMs? […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries

12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/ldc12-115-g31-dt_1.pdf

 

[PhilandMena]

whoops forgot to add one more data sheet.

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/lb-plhc100-pd-en-v3.1-201908.pdf

 

[Al n Val]

I removed 2 Banner stop/start batteries on my Autotrail and replaced them with 2 Leoch Pure Lead carbon ones as suggested by Phil.

Couldn’t fault the performance of them at all and after 2 years they were still as good as the day I fitted them.

But boy we’re they heavy so bear that in mind if payload is an issue, If we didn’t have Lithium now i’d def have them again

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