Which is better - Hymer or Carthago - subjective help please.

[Tony50]

There must come a time when the demand for second hand over 3.5t mohos drops off.

Not while most 3.5 ton vehicles are running way over weight I suspect , I had a A class 3.5 ton ,I put it over a weigh bridge fueled up and half a tank of water , wife would had to sit in back to make front axle legal, and, you are not insured if overweight , sorry to deviate.

 

[StephDeLux]

Not while most 3.5 ton vehicles are running way over weight I suspect , I had a A class 3.5 ton ,I put it over a weigh bridge fueled up and half a tank of water , wife would had to sit in back to make front axle legal, and, you are not insured if overweight , sorry to deviate.

Wouldn't that be dependant on size? Small A Class line Compactline 138 and 141 seem perfectly manageable under 3.5T. As soon as you go to over 7 meters it starts to get pretty complicated indeed.

Weight is a very strong asset of the Hymer Exsis range. And their interior appears to us better made than in the new Moderncomfort series.

 

[Wagoneer]

Oh no, not another toilet thread.....

The toilet seat in our Chic is 9cm higher than our loo at home. That's 3.5 inches in old money.

This is due to the toilet being located over the rear wheel arch. Different models with different layouts may overcome this problem, depending on the location of the toilet relative to the rear wheel arch.

There is a 7cm high ledge on one side of the toilet which my 5' 2" wife uses to rest her right foot on. She's never complained about the height of the toilet. One upside is, the bowl is nearer to me for 95% of the time

PS. I hope there's an EU standard for height of toilet seats !!! I'll get the popcorn ?

 

[StephDeLux]

Oh no, not another toilet thread.....

The toilet seat in our Chic is 9cm higher than our loo at home. That's 3.5 inches in old money.

This is due to the toilet being located over the rear wheel arch. Different models with different layouts may overcome this problem, depending on the location of the toilet relative to the rear wheel arch.

There is a 7cm high ledge on one side of the toilet which my 5' 2" wife uses to rest her right foot on. She's never complained about the height of the toilet. One upside is, the bowl is nearer to me for 95% of the time

PS. I hope there's an EU standard for height of toilet seats !!! I'll get the popcorn ?

This is not a toilet thread. But thanks for sharing your experience

 

[Pausim]

and, you are not insured if overweight

On what do you base this? Are you not insured if you break a speed limit?

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[Tony50]

On what do you base this? Are you not insured if you break a speed limit?

Have a accident while speeding, and also after having a accident where you are found to be overweight on 1 or both axles or overall you are running illegal , according to your policy I think you Will find in the small print you are supposed to run legally all the time, whether mechanically, vehicle condition, and observing, the above . After running over 100 cars Insurance Companies always look for way out as well as paying genuine Claims.

 

[Lenny HB]

Weight is a very strong asset of the Hymer Exsis range. And their interior appears to us better made than in the new Moderncomfort series.

The downside is the Exsis doesn't have a double floor and we found it a bit downmarket. The current Exsis & Modern Comfort are basically the same interiors.
Our last van was an Exsis payload was 590 kg, we ended up uprating, even then we were tight on the rear axle due to the water tank being behind the rear axle and it was only a 100 lt (latest ones I think are 130) had to carry extra water in the garage.

 

[StephDeLux]

The downside is the Exsis doesn't have a double floor and we found it a bit downmarket. The current Exsis & Modern Comfort are basically the same interiors.

I find the Modern Comfort interior a downgrade compared to Exsis, really cheapened down. It was a big disappointment when we visited it. That, and the Exsis-t 588 losing the al-ko chassis, made us look harder at Carthago.

Totally agree with you on the double floor subject, which is on all Carthago and Malibu models and not on Exsis. Now it is becoming hard for us to find a reason to go back to Hymer, but we still have to take several visits of Carthago samples to really get in the fine details and really know how we feel in them.

I know the bathroom is the deal breaker for you in Carthago, but for us that depends on the models. Carthago's vario bathroom (I 141 LE) is quite well thought out and puts the one in the Exsis 474 to shame, really

 

[Lenny HB]

Totally agree with you on the double floor subject, which is on all Carthago and Malibu

Unless they have changed recently Malibu are a single floor on a Fiat chassis.

 

[BobtheBass]

Our last van was a Carthago, our current van is a Hymer. We love them both but the layout of our Hymer suits us better. Its got more equipment fitted (thanks Becks specs!) but there is no doubt the Carthago was better made. The dealers though for Carthago were, in our experience dreadful and under the assumption that Carthago owners were all loaded. Becks are lovely to deal with but im not sure about some other Hymer dealers. Carthago bathrooms are poncy and small but nice, our Hymer has a lovely bathroom. There are other things i could say but im on a cruise ship docked in Oslo and running out of data allowance.....

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[StephDeLux]

Unless they have changed recently Malibu are a single floor on a Fiat chassis.

You had me go and check All Malibu except the panel van conversions have a heated double floor. They are indeed on the Fiat chassis.

 

[Lenny HB]

You had me go and check All Malibu except the panel van conversions have a heated double floor. They are indeed on the Fiat chassis.

So they have, last time I saw one was as a few years ago at Caravan Salon, but boy has the price gone up silly money for a budget van. By the time you have added a few extras nearly 80k.

They bought their way into the lower end market with the C Tourer, Compact Line & Malibu now they are entrenched in that market area they have jacked the prices up.

 

[StephDeLux]

So they have, last time I saw one was as a few years ago at Caravan Salon, but boy has the price gone up silly money for a budget van. By the time you have added a few extras nearly 80k.

They bought their way into the lower end market with the C Tourer, Compact Line & Malibu now they are entrenched in that market area they have jacked the prices up.

They don't do budget, really. Malibu is on the same prices as the "lower-end" Hymers. Not an easy choice because Carthago adopts a cheaper body construction while Hymer keeps the exact same PUAL for everything. So I'd definitely favour an exsis-i compared to an equivalent Malibu, but really not easy. I like how they kept the length of the Malibu I 441 at 6.6 meters, like a exsis-i 474,but with a much, much better interior.
We are leaning toward the Compactline at the moment, but we need to visit them.
Would like a test drive too, but who will give us that?

 

[Pausim]

They don't do budget, really. Malibu is on the same prices as the "lower-end" Hymers. Not an easy choice because Carthago adopts a cheaper body construction while Hymer keeps the exact same PUAL for everything. So I'd definitely favour an exsis-i comapred to an equivalent Malibu, but really not easy. I like how they kept the length of the Malibu I 441 at 6.6 meters, like a exsis-i 474,but with a much, much better interior.
We are leaning toward the Compactline at the moment, but we need to visit them.
Would like a test drive too, but who will give us that?

Not sure Carthago would agree that their construction is cheaper or of a lesser quality than Hymer’s PUAL.

This is from their brochure:
The Carthago main body construction technology is not just highly stable, it is also light. The combination of aluminium on the outside and the inside and the RTM hard foam insulating core which is typical of the brand allows Carthago to dispense with additional weight-intensive wall reinforcements.

Doesn’t look much different to me.

 

[StephDeLux]

Not sure Carthago would agree that their construction is cheaper or of a lesser quality than Hymer’s PUAL.

This is from their brochure:
The Carthago main body construction technology is not just highly stable, it is also light. The combination of aluminium on the outside and the inside and the RTM hard foam insulating core which is typical of the brand allows Carthago to dispense with additional weight-intensive wall reinforcements.

Doesn’t look much different to me.

No no, not Carthago. Malibu. I was talking of Malibu.

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[Pausim]

No no, not Carthago. Malibu. I was talking of Malibu.

Sorry, I misread your post.

 

[StephDeLux]

Another area of difference are the electrical and water systems.

Hymer relies on Schaudt and AGM batteries like the majority of the brands, whereas Carthago relies on another system (which I dont know) and Gel batteries that are arguably better than AGM. No idea if the different electroblock system has a positive or negative influence.

For the fridges, I see more and more Thetford fridges in Hymer including the Moderncomfort series while Carthago remains with Dometic. All I can see is the the Dometic fridges tend to use less energy and are sold for higher prices on retail, but no idea if that has any practical consequences.

For water, Carthago has an external pressure pump and Hymer a plunged pump. The Chausson we rented had a pressure pump exactly like the Carthago and it does make the shower more useful for my wife, allowing her to rince her hair much more easily.

 

[Wellington]

Ah, over the wheel arch, I should have thought of that! In all honesty, its not a problem for me (and I'm only 5ft tall) and only really noticeable because I travel with a nine year old (who's going to need a step!)

For me it was the double floor (storage space for shoes. OMG, the shoes! I have two complete outfits I wear in almost constant rotation, so I'm no Imelda DeMarcos, but in the MH we carry walking boots, wellies, wet weather clogs, trainers for sight seeing, sandals, flip flops for showers and water shoes for stony beaches. Thats without anything 'ordinary' or smart. No wonder you need a cellar to store them in!) and the split hob cover. There is no work top in any of these MHs, so the ability to put half the lid down and be able to make a cuppa next to the kettle without having to wash all the dishes in the sink first, was a dealbreaker. Also, the garage. No bike rack. Oh how I hate my bike rack. I'm unreasonably excited about getting a garage.

 

[Wagoneer]

Another area of difference are the electrical and water systems.

Hymer relies on Schaudt and AGM batteries like the majority of the brands, whereas Carthago relies on another system (which I dont know) and Gel batteries that are arguably better than AGM. No idea if the different electroblock system has a positive or negative influence.

For the fridges, I see more and more Thetford fridges in Hymer including the Moderncomfort series while Carthago remains with Dometic. All I can see is the the Dometic fridges tend to use less energy and are sold for higher prices on retail, but no idea if that has any practical consequences.

For water, Carthago has an external pressure pump and Hymer a plunged pump. The Chausson we rented had a pressure pump exactly like the Carthago and it does make the shower more useful for my wife, allowing her to rince her hair much more easily.

The Carthago has a CBE electrical system which has proved to be totally unsatisfactory (at least on my van) compared with the Schaudt system on my previous Hymer. The CBE charges at less than 14v whether on mains or alternator. The Schaudt gave a solid 14.4v from both sources and kept my gel batteries going for 10 years. I sold it after 10 years with the original leisure batteries.

The plumbing system on the Carthago has given me constant problems. I've replaced nearly all the plastic T-piece connectors because of cracks/pinholes developing in the plastic. The diaphragm pump seems to put extra strain on the system as it's pressurised all the time. No problems with the the Hymer submersible pump which only operates when triggered by the microswitch at the individual taps.

In retrospect, i wish I still had my Hymer as I've spent 7 years fixing faults on the Carthago since first ownership. Also, you used to be able to purchase spare parts at Carthago HQ in Germany but...no more - you get referred to your dealer which can take months/years to get spare parts. Hymer HQ in Germany are far more sympathetic to aftersales service and have a service department specifically set up to fix owners vans and obtain spare parts.

Another problem with Carthago is they seem to have very few English speaking staff. Whereas Hymer do.

 

[StephDeLux]

The Carthago has a CBE electrical system which has proved to be totally unsatisfactory (at least on my van) compared with the Schaudt system on my previous Hymer. The CBE charges at less than 14v whether on mains or alternator. The Schaudt gave a solid 14.4v from both sources and kept my gel batteries going for 10 years. I sold it after 10 years with the original leisure batteries.

The plumbing system on the Carthago has given me constant problems. I've replaced nearly all the plastic T-piece connectors because of cracks/pinholes developing in the plastic. The diaphragm pump seems to put extra strain on the system as it's pressurised all the time. No problems with the the Hymer submersible pump which only operates when triggered by the microswitch at the individual taps.

In retrospect, i wish I still had my Hymer as I've spent 7 years fixing faults on the Carthago since first ownership. Also, you used to be able to purchase spare parts at Carthago HQ in Germany but...no more - you get referred to your dealer which can take months/years to get spare parts. Hymer HQ in Germany are far more sympathetic to aftersales service and have a service department specifically set up to fix owners vans and obtain spare parts.

Another problem with Carthago is they seem to have very few English speaking staff. Whereas Hymer do.

Thanks and sorry to read that. Must be terrible to face such disappointment.

Question of course is how prevalent the problems are.

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[Pausim]

No problems with the the Hymer submersible pump which only operates when triggered by the microswitch at the individual taps.

One of the few problems I have had on my Hymer has been the microswitch on one of the taps. The tap was replaced. Not a serious matter but inconvenient for a while.

 

[StephDeLux]

Following the worrying experiences of Wagoneer, I just went over all the Hymer series to check what was suitable. Having different sleeping habits, we need single beds, with island beds tolerable. I am tall, meaning I need a 2 meters long bed. Very, very few Hymer models give a 2 meters long bed! The full inventory is:

If you add a limit of 7 meters long and a budget limit of about 90.000€, this is becoming very difficult.

The full Hymer inventory with just those 3 constraints is:

• Exsis 588
• Moderncomfort 580

The 588 loses its al-ko chassis for 2020 and the Moderncomfort furnishing is frankly disappointing at that price level. I don't want to spend that much on something I am not convinced of.

At the same time, all single beds in the Carthago range are standardized on 190 and 200cm, including on models measuring 6.6m in length and the interiors don't feel cheap like in a Moderncomfort.

What to buy in the end?

 

[bigtwin]

Do Hymer also provide the two extra little wheels that I’ve often seen under the rear of Carthagos. Are they standard on Carthagos or are they an option?

These must cause an awful lot of unnecessary grounding out as they appear to be substantially lower than any of the surrounding bodywork.

Ian

 

[Wagoneer]

Thanks and sorry to read that. Must be terrible to face such disappointment.

Question of course is how prevalent the problems are.

You must remember, my van was built in 2009 - improvements have been made since then.

Initially, the draws kept flying out but think they've now put decent catches on the draws now - mine are plastic. A lot of fettling has resolved this problem but they still sometimes jam in the closed position. I still travel with a bag full of replacement catches.

The main Remis rooflight was a design disaster. At least the mark 2 version is much better as fitted to later Carthago's. Eventually, its going to cost me £600 for the latest design. The Hymer rooflight design was much better which went straight up and down and therefore wasn't so wind dependent.

The cupboard shelves are all glued in place making it difficult to modify. The Hymer had variable shelf positions and didn't rattle.

My Hymer came with a 12v/mains hab circuit diagram - asked Carthago for similar but was refused....apart from the usual opt out - contact your dealer.

Drop-down bed over cab which drops down whilst driving. I've adjusted and lubricated the mechanism so the latch pins are fully extended in the closed position but it still occasionally drops down. I now keep an emergency piece of timber as a prop so it can be kept in the closed position.

A-class cab, annoying rattles - still haven't resolved this, apart from lubricating the hinges on the drop-down bed, which helped a bit. The joint between the Fiat dashboard and the interfacing Carthago dashboard seems to be where most of the squeaks are coming from. I've tried silicone spray, it helps but the squeaks eventually return.

Overall, the build is good - it's passed the water ingress test for 10 years.

 

[StephDeLux]

You must remember, my van was built in 2009 - improvements have been made since then.

...

Overall, the build is good - it's passed the water ingress test for 10 years.

Thanks for this. Yeah, I suppose they have improved. Seems a lot of the problems come from being an A class. Maybe going with a c-tourer T would be the safest choice. But they seem to sell so many A class, they must know how to do them properly.

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[Lenny HB]

Do Hymer also provide the two extra little wheels that I’ve often seen under the rear of Carthagos. Are they standard on Carthagos or are they an option?

You can only have them if the chassis goes right to the rear so only normally available on big vans. On the Hymers the chassis stops in front of the garage, the garage is self supporting on the 350kg garage, if you have the 450kg garage they fit chassis extensions, I doubt if they would be suitable for the wheels.

 

[StephDeLux]

Just booked 2 test drives and a factory tour the week-end of 3-4 August at Aulendorf. They have a special week-end to present the 2020 models before Düsseldorf.

 

[tomlowry07]

Hi Stephen, please do report on your test drive and thoughts on the modern comfort. What's new for 2020 etc. I have ordered a mci 680 for October delivery, and no idea what to expect. Main reason was merc and 9speed gearbox, plus the info tech. Disappointed finish sounds worse than my current hymer tramp sl. I thought this was going to sort out my carthago envy....

 

[CazPaul]

The Carthago has a CBE electrical system which has proved to be totally unsatisfactory (at least on my van) compared with the Schaudt system on my previous Hymer. The CBE charges at less than 14v whether on mains or alternator. The Schaudt gave a solid 14.4v from both sources and kept my gel batteries going for 10 years. I sold it after 10 years with the original leisure batteries.

The plumbing system on the Carthago has given me constant problems. I've replaced nearly all the plastic T-piece connectors because of cracks/pinholes developing in the plastic. The diaphragm pump seems to put extra strain on the system as it's pressurised all the time. No problems with the the Hymer submersible pump which only operates when triggered by the microswitch at the individual taps.

In retrospect, i wish I still had my Hymer as I've spent 7 years fixing faults on the Carthago since first ownership. Also, you used to be able to purchase spare parts at Carthago HQ in Germany but...no more - you get referred to your dealer which can take months/years to get spare parts. Hymer HQ in Germany are far more sympathetic to aftersales service and have a service department specifically set up to fix owners vans and obtain spare parts.

Another problem with Carthago is they seem to have very few English speaking staff. Whereas Hymer do.

The CBE system on my Concorde has kept my original fit x2 140ah gel batteries going into their 15th year now

 

[StephDeLux]

Hi Stephen, please do report on your test drive and thoughts on the modern comfort. What's new for 2020 etc. I have ordered a mci 680 for October delivery, and no idea what to expect. Main reason was merc and 9speed gearbox, plus the info tech. Disappointed finish sounds worse than my current hymer tramp sl. I thought this was going to sort out my carthago envy....

Gosh now I feel awful. The Mercedes part is exactly what prevents me from completely discarding the Hymer MC but I stand by what I said, but remember a lot of this is a subjective evaluation. I have no idea of what is going on in the engineering of the interior.

I've visited a Tramp SL and, well, it is not the same, that's for sure.

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