Vibration at 30 - 50 mph - HELP (2 Viewers)

[Ianbenny]

I have already posted on the tech section about this but haven't solved it yet. Need some technical experience from you guys.

2014 Peugeot Boxer - had the rear chassis and spring bushes changed due to squealing. Also had the tyres changed for the MOT
Chassis bushes are a new design, not the ones below, without a central hollow pin. They must be wider as they supply 2 oversize washers to fit to the springs.

Bad vibration at 30mph to 50mph - levels out at 60mph due to the higher frequency but still there. This van drove really nicely before this.

Thought it was the tyres, so had another set fitted - convinced myself it was better but its not. Its unpleasant to drive and its starting to shake the marking light bolts loose. I have done about 150 miles since but hate driving it now.

So, getting desperate as we were going to France at end of August for the first time in years. It maybe our last trip abroad as wife is unwell.

Had it in for a oil/filter service at a closer garage and he noticed that the anti roll bar had moved to one side, i.e it was not evenly located. Would this cause a problem?

I wonder if the vibration had caused this to slide across.

As it was OK before the work (except the squeal ) I think its resonance from the suspension, my next steps is to try and put it back to the position it was in previously and belt and braces approach:

1. Replacing the new bushes with the older style with a central pin. This allows the shackles to move more easily it needed
2. Replace the springs - this ensures that its not the new spring bushes that were put in
3. Change the shock absorbers just for good measure.

Could it be wheel related or bearing/hubs? Wheels have been balanced to death and again were fine when it went in.

Does this sound feasible. I know it will cost but I have little option but to throw some money at it, as I cant afford another van, and I cant sell it like it is.

The garage that did the work is going to have another look and put the old style bushes in, but they are always busy and it usually takes 3 weeks to get a slot so I am running out of time for my holidays

Any other ideas or thought would be appreciated as I am getting desperate.

 

[oldiesontour]

Without experiencing the problem 2 things may be worth a try,quick job for the likes of Halfords or quick fit swop shockers for new and or swop front to rear wheels.
Don't know if anyone does on vehicle balancing but if so may be worth a try

 

[Landy Andy]

I would in your situation try an alternative set of wheels. If you were nearer to me, I would offer to swap with mine, so you can get a clearer direction.

But on the suspension point, the shown buses above look very different to what I fitted to mine. I fitted Fiat bushes. Which were more like this.

Fits Fiat Ducato Peugeot Boxer Citroen Relay Rear Leaf Spring Bush 50mm OD 1386708080

Rear Leaf Spring Chassis Bush 50mm OD Genuine OE FIAT Part. Fits Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer And Citroen Relay (2006-Onwards) Please Be Aware There Can Be More Than One Option Fitted To These Vehicles.

coastalmotorhomes.co.uk

 

[Ianbenny]

I would in your situation try an alternative set of wheels. If you were nearer to me, I would offer to swap with mine, so you can get a clearer direction.

But on the suspension point, the shown buses above look very different to what I fitted to mine. I fitted Fiat bushes. Which were more like this.

Fits Fiat Ducato Peugeot Boxer Citroen Relay Rear Leaf Spring Bush 50mm OD 1386708080

Rear Leaf Spring Chassis Bush 50mm OD Genuine OE FIAT Part. Fits Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer And Citroen Relay (2006-Onwards) Please Be Aware There Can Be More Than One Option Fitted To These Vehicles.

coastalmotorhomes.co.uk

Thank you for the offer.
I did have the old parts and they were the ones I have posted above. The new ones are like the ones you have fitted I think as there is no cnetral tube. The fiat/Peugeot parts are £52 each, so £104 per side.

I did think about using the spare wheel wheel to swap, but I have not got a jack big enough and have a dodgy knee so cant get down to do it

A pair of wheel rims are about £200 which could be another step

 

[Barriesimpson]

30-50 is usually front wheel balance.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Terry]

I would get kwikfit to check your wheels for balance and look for a bleb on a tyre. Then if no joy swap fronts to back - ask them to check suspension and track rod ends - 30 to 50 is usually balance.
Edit as Barrie says above

 

[oldiesontour]

1 of the reasons I suggested swapping front for rear wheels would rule in or out ...wheels,tyres and balance,once swopped if driving experience does not change the all wheels and tyres can be eliminated, relatively quick and cheap,on vehicle balancing rules out wheel bearings,tie rods bottom and top ball joints and links ...if you can find somewhere that still does it

 

[Carpmart]

I would suggest getting front wheels balanced. Low cost option and worth ruling out!

 

[Spanner]

Do you have a spare wheel to try in place of a possible faulty wheel ?
You could ask a local tyre firm to do this in turn starting with a front wheel. Front wheel unbalance is normally felt through the steering wheel, rear wheel unbalance is normally more noticeable through the body.
Chris

 

[Landy Andy]

A shake isn’t always the front wheels, it can be any of them. If front wheels you will tend to feel it through the steering. But as others have said 50mm ish is wheel balance area. Better above and below.
A tyre balancing machine will not tell you if you have a buckled wheel. It will balance it, but will still shake the vehicle. So will a tyre with debris on the discs to wheel mounting surface.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ivorantony]

I would get someone to follow you at the speed you get maximum vibration and see if they can detect any obvious unusual movement on your wheels, to pin point the wheel or axle that causing it,
Their are some companies that will dynamically balance the wheels on the van which should show up a buckled wheel if you have one,
I have also had this with a distorted tyre, I know you have said they have been replaced but a jack up and using a straight edge across the tyre width with a spin would discount that anomaly,

 

[The Wino]

I had a tyre develop a bulge on the inner sidewall it was exactly as you describe and was only noticed when we went on the motorway for the first time in a while if it had blown it could have been very nasty. I know that wouldn't tie in with it starting when the rear suspension work was done but sometimes there are strange coincidences the vibration could be totally unrelated!

 

[ChrisL]

A commercial garage may be able to do on vehicle wheel balancing if you ring around some in your area.

 

[Ianbenny]

I would in your situation try an alternative set of wheels. If you were nearer to me, I would offer to swap with mine, so you can get a clearer direction.

But on the suspension point, the shown buses above look very different to what I fitted to mine. I fitted Fiat bushes. Which were more like this.

Fits Fiat Ducato Peugeot Boxer Citroen Relay Rear Leaf Spring Bush 50mm OD 1386708080

Rear Leaf Spring Chassis Bush 50mm OD Genuine OE FIAT Part. Fits Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer And Citroen Relay (2006-Onwards) Please Be Aware There Can Be More Than One Option Fitted To These Vehicles.

coastalmotorhomes.co.uk

The new bush Peugeot Part number is 1687270980 - I cannot find a photo or diagram of it on the net. If you search for the old number, some sites will direct you to the new number

This is the old bush that was fitted - same part number as the full kit on Coastal Motorhomes.

Fits Fiat Ducato Peugeot Boxer Citroen Relay Leaf Spring Bush 1369384080

New Leaf Spring Chassis Bush OEM Part. Fits Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer And Citroen Relay (2006-On) Please Check Your Vehicle Has A 50mm Outside Diameter On The Bush.

coastalmotorhomes.co.uk

The old bush has what looks like a nylon or ptfe insert which the steel pin locates in and can rotate. The new bush like yours has the pin moulded into the rubber, which when under torsion will distort the rubber. I thought that this will make the rotation much stiffer and could be causing the issue but as the rotation is only small I may be clutching at straws.

 

[Ianbenny]

30-50 is usually front wheel balance.

I would suggest getting front wheels balanced. Low cost option and worth ruling out!

So, had new Kuhmo tyres fitted at the same time for the MOT - Vibration was noticed on way back to the storage yard. Next day took it to a local tyre fitters and had all wheels re-balanced - they said they were OK but re balanced them for me.

No difference.

So went back to the garage and he agreed it looks like the tyres and would order me some more. In the mean time he fitted two of the old tyres and tried them on the front wheels then the rear ones. He thought it made a difference but I couldnt tell.

I wish he had tried the spare alternatively to see if there was one bad tyre which is what I would have done.

New Hankook tyres fitted and it made no difference. So I decided to run them for a hundred miles and it was still the same.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Ianbenny]

Do you have a spare wheel to try in place of a possible faulty wheel ?
You could ask a local tyre firm to do this in turn starting with a front wheel. Front wheel unbalance is normally felt through the steering wheel, rear wheel unbalance is normally more noticeable through the body.
Chris

This is what I am planning to do next week hopefully.
I can feel a very slight vibration from the steering wheel, but its through the seats that you feel it the most.

It is that bad that the seat cushions are coming off and falling on the floor

 

[Ianbenny]

The only other thing is that the anti roll bar(14 on the piccy) had moved to one side, nearside to offside, so I am wondering if this has been caused by the vibration. The service guy re-centred but said there are knurls (I think) where it locates into the clamps it so lets see if it moves again

 

[wolfie2]

Ianbenny I'm not aware of the procedure for renewing the rear spring bushes but is it possible that a rear shock absorber was damaged during that work. Maybe bent or started leaking as a result of being removed and reinstalled. If it is damaged/ failed it could result in the wheel just bouncing up and down thereby causing your vibrations.
It's all a bit of a guess on my part, but you never know!!

 

[ivorantony]

Having spent 50 years in the motor trade I think it’s highly unlikely to have anything to do with the springs/ suspension, the most they will do will be out of alignment so the van would crab,
If it’s vibrating at certain speeds it has to be rotational, so back to wheels/tyres/hub and possibly bearing, also check the runout of the driveshafts, good luck,

 

[Landy Andy]

The new bush Peugeot Part number is 1687270980 - I cannot find a photo or diagram of it on the net. If you search for the old number, some sites will direct you to the new number

This is the old bush that was fitted - same part number as the full kit on Coastal Motorhomes.

Fits Fiat Ducato Peugeot Boxer Citroen Relay Leaf Spring Bush 1369384080

New Leaf Spring Chassis Bush OEM Part. Fits Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer And Citroen Relay (2006-On) Please Check Your Vehicle Has A 50mm Outside Diameter On The Bush.

coastalmotorhomes.co.uk

The old bush has what looks like a nylon or ptfe insert which the steel pin locates in and can rotate. The new bush like yours has the pin moulded into the rubber, which when under torsion will distort the rubber. I thought that this will make the rotation much stiffer and could be causing the issue but as the rotation is only small I may be clutching at straws.

Was the vehicle dropped to running height before suspension parts were tightened?
I understand you probably weren’t there when job was done. But that is correct procedure.

But still think it is more wheel/tyre based.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ChrisL]

Just thinking outside the box for a minute, is it possible that a drive shaft has got bent? Just thinking was it accidentally lifted incorrectly?

 

[ivorantony]

Just thinking outside the box for a minute, is it possible that a drive shaft has got bent? Just thinking was it accidentally lifted incorrectly?

That’s a good point, I have seen vehicles that haven’t been jacked up correctly slip and damage driveshafts, so definitely worth looking,

 

[pappajohn]

Have the tyres been checked for deformation.
Doesn't take a lot to get a shudder/vibration.

 

[Al n Val]

30-50 is usually front wheel balance.

I was gonna say more like rear wheel balance tbh

 

[Barriesimpson]

I was gonna say more like rear wheel balance tbh

No, rear wheel balance is 70-80.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[jockaneezer]

This really is a bit of an enigma isn't it ? I've driven our Isuzu Grafter with a snapped rear leaf spring and there was no vibration at all but you could feel a "pull" on the steering wheel and we had replacement shock absorbers fitted to a car that were faulty from brand new, driving and braking were a nightmare but no vibration ?
The fact that you've changed the tyres twice must surely rule them out, but I'd be looking at their and the hub's mating faces, wheel bearings and drive shafts ?
I personally wouldn't trust Halfords or Kwikfit to do the tracking on a wheel barrow, but that's just me !

 

[Ianbenny]

Was the vehicle dropped to running height before suspension parts were tightened?
I understand you probably weren’t there when job was done. But that is correct procedure.

But still think it is more wheel/tyre based.

Yes they followed that procedure.

 

[Ianbenny]

Ianbenny I'm not aware of the procedure for renewing the rear spring bushes but is it possible that a rear shock absorber was damaged during that work. Maybe bent or started leaking as a result of being removed and reinstalled. If it is damaged/ failed it could result in the wheel just bouncing up and down thereby causing your vibrations.
It's all a bit of a guess on my part, but you never know!!

I am open to any possibilities but I plan to change the shocks - any recommendations on the best ones to use?

 

[Ianbenny]

Just thinking outside the box for a minute, is it possible that a drive shaft has got bent? Just thinking was it accidentally lifted incorrectly?

That’s a good point, I have seen vehicles that haven’t been jacked up correctly slip and damage driveshafts, so definitely worth looking,

They did the work over a pit so I don't see why they had to lift the front end. I did ask if they thought it was the drive shafts but he thought not as its only got 40k miles and he said it was a different vibration. They are an honest garage and been there for 25 years so I trust them.

I am looking at the rear as that's where the changes were made. When we go through and make sure that's as it should be, then I will get them to look at the driveshafts

 

[Ianbenny]

Have the tyres been checked for deformation.
Doesn't take a lot to get a shudder/vibration.

Second set of new tyres, but could be the wheel.