Van Modification Success: Goodbye Blind Spot Mirrors

[busby]

That’s good, unless there isn’t anything to fit the glass to.

There is always a way..No mirror arm then broom handle across the scuttle fixed with bungee straps...Only had two mirrors broken but carrying a glass is like carrying a brolly. It's when you forget it the rain comes..BUSBY..

 

[stevewagner]

Good luck you and I think it’s a great idea. There’s always sceptics but sooner or later people embrace technology. It won’t be long before all vehicles have mirror cameras.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Anyone got any Carthago mirrors for sale ?

 

[Rob Turner]

Anyone got any Carthago mirrors for sale ?

I did have.

 

[WESTY66]

I did have.

You mean they’ve gone
T’was nice meeting you last night!!
The cameras look very good, a very tidy install

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[A-Mech]

When I was looking for MH we narrowed our search by hiring first and testing to see if, that van was suitable for all our needs?

I was pretty sure that a c-line carthago was were our money was to be spent until our road test around the NW500.

We hired from Premium in Doncaster and had a fantastic experience, but the blind spot caused by the mirrors was horrendous and was the one factor that stopped us spending £150k on new van.

I commented that, spending that kind of money (£150k) would mean that, the van already would have or an option for camera mirrors as standard truck technology.

I think they are a fantastic addition to your van Rob, but the cost will need to come down by 50% to prove to be a viable choice for other owners, I believe?
I also think, it will be a thing of the near future for all a-class vans, whether a option or standard fitment.
Great post!

 

[Adeydub]

Thanks for the reply Jock

All you mention was addressed in the R & D over the last 12 months and should be sorted. I didn’t just buy a couple of cameras and monitors off Scamazon and stick them on. Myself and the installer have spent an awful lot of time to try and make sure this works out to be the best it can be.

The glare from lights, the rain/condensation on the lens, the spray, the icy mornings, the distance, it has all been sorted.

The original Actros cameras and also the Daf offering were crap to say the least.

Volvo have been late to the party and they have sorted all the previous issues with the new Aero.

I have only driven for 2 hours and am very impressed if I’m honest.

Always best to adopt the tech after it’s matured a bit. Enjoy

 

[AshFencing]

Sorry David, my wife has just read this whole thread and has pointed out that I completely misunderstood your initial comment. I thought you meant the cameras were vulgar!!! As I’ve said in the thread, I reckon they will be coming in under the 4k mark which I personally think is value for money given the standard of the installation and components

Don’t ya just hate it when the other half is right

 

[WESTY66]

I’m hoping the price comes down and a lot of Carthago owners fit them!!
Just think a nice steady supply of second hand mirrors for paupers like me

 

[gus-lopez]

To be honest I wouldn't miss it if it stopped working as I rarely look at it

I've two ,one up high & a number plate one.The No; plate one I use for reversing to get the ball hitch exactly under the coupling & check on whilst moving & the upper one mainly to check on the text/phone users behind me .

Anything electrical will fall eventually, anything electronic will fail sooner.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You only have to see the amount of electrical faults on new vehicles with air bag ecu speedo faults, emission sensor faults. All of which should be solely down to manufacturers to fix foc,

No issues here, I’ve been through the construction and use regulations and also my insurance don’t have any issues either.
Germany and the TuV do have strict rules and are followed by the book,

It isn't that but the fact that it is an offence to look at any type of 'screen' whilst driving.there is no difference to me,& it should be the same for the old bill, in whether you are looking at the surrounding road via cameras or a tv programme. Same applies to all new vehicles with large screens ,especially ev's. I have a double din unit in my van & have insulation taped over the screen that I can flick up/down so I can see cameras screen when reversing, specifically for this reason, it's illegal in the uk & most of europe..

Germany and the TuV do have strict rules and are followed by the book,

As do spain & France along with the rest of europe.

That’s good, unless there isn’t anything to fit the glass to.

There is always something that can be done ,even if you have cameras & knock one off.

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[AshFencing]

I don't know how long it will take to become the norm, however, the transfer to camera's is inevitable and as they are seen as an important safety feature for vehicles going forward. The camera will not just be a substitute for mirrors it will auto detect, provide warning beeps or apply the brakes if required and record everything for posterity side mirrors can do none of those things. Suspect most of us won't like change and therefore the two may co exist for a while before everyone asks 'why'?

The future will be camera systems, with mirrors filled as an expensive optional extra

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

It isn't that but the fact that it is an offence to look at any type of 'screen' whilst driving.

So, are Teslas and most modern EV’s illegal in Spain? As I have seen many there. Also presumably sat nav’s are illegal.
I have a moving map, sat nav, rear view camera, battery and charging monitor, radio screen and HUD speedo. So I had better not go to Spain. I presume from what you say.

 

[Stixdrive]

By far the best mod that we’ve added to our van so far.
I can’t take all the credit for this one, most of it goes to Motorhome Retrofits who I’ve been working with for months to bring this to fruition.
I couldn’t be happier with the outcome and am so pleased to finally bid farewell to the blind spot causing mirrors.
There will be a full YouTube video released on the whole process in the coming weeks and I will post more detail in the future but I just couldn’t wait to share this one.

View attachment 933723View attachment 933724

Thank you for sharing, they look very neatly installed on your A class. This is an upgrade I would consider in the future (when the funds are available).

I look forward to hearing more about your thoughts and experiences with touring with the mirror camera system.

The mirror camera system is now seen more commonly on LGVs and Coaches, so it is just a matter of time before they are fitted as standard on A class MH initially, then the coach built.

 

[olley]

Knocked the off side mirror and arm clean off in Balem Lisbon, drove back to the UK using the side view camera.
Had a side view and rear camera screens on all the time, for the last 15+ years in the RV.
Been pulled in in France when they're doing vehicle checks a few times over years, more interest shown in the cats than anything else.

 

[WESTY66]

I've two ,one up high & a number plate one.The No; plate one I use for reversing to get the ball hitch exactly under the coupling & check on whilst moving & the upper one mainly to check on the text/phone users behind me .

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You only have to see the amount of electrical faults on new vehicles with air bag ecu speedo faults, emission sensor faults. All of which should be solely down to manufacturers to fix foc,

It isn't that but the fact that it is an offence to look at any type of 'screen' whilst driving.there is no difference to me,& it should be the same for the old bill, in whether you are looking at the surrounding road via cameras or a tv programme. Same applies to all new vehicles with large screens ,especially ev's. I have a double din unit in my van & have insulation taped over the screen that I can flick up/down so I can see cameras screen when reversing, specifically for this reason, it's illegal in the uk & most of europe..

As do spain & France along with the rest of europe.


There is always something that can be done ,even if you have cameras & knock one off.

Richard, stop putting people off, I’m looking forward to all the second hand mirrors coming my way
LHD only BTW

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[gus-lopez]

So, are Teslas and most modern EV’s illegal in Spain? As I have seen many there.

The screens are illegal to look at in the Uk.It is still dubious whether using a mobile phone as a 'sat nav' in the Uk is legal? Hasn't been tested in court.
Watching & tiouching any kind of screen in the Uk is illegal that is why teslas requiring use of touch screen to control items like heating ,cooling, radio ,etc are technically illegal

I have a moving map, sat nav, rear view camera, battery and charging monitor, radio screen and HUD speedo. So I had better not go to Spain. I presume from what you say.

I have 2 x rear view cameras that I ensure are off ,except when I need to look at a muppet.When doing so technically I am breaking the law anywhere in eu or Uk.
Stand alone sat nav is legally acceptable as long as not touched whilst in use. As said mobile phone is highly debatable as if it is legal to use as a 'sat nav' when on the road¡ why does touching it to pay at a drive through become 6 points & a huge fine in the UK?
HUD no problem it is just a display that you are not watching.
Radio screen,as per my previous post , mine is completely covered when driving so that I cannot be accused of 'watching ' anything.
& it is nothing to do with spain alone.All the above I have posted is illegal in the UK & always has been & is why tyhe old bill run artic tractor units ,without limiters, to look in to private cars, vans & commercial lorries to catch those watching programmes, touching screens, on media,units, mobiles, tablets & lap tops.

I have no problems with technology but with the use of it without alterations to existing laws that the old bill can on any day use against you, if they so wish.

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

The screens are illegal to look at in the Uk.It is still dubious whether using a mobile phone as a 'sat nav' in the Uk is legal? Hasn't been tested in court.
Watching & tiouching any kind of screen in the Uk is illegal that is why teslas requiring use of touch screen to control items like heating ,cooling, radio ,etc are technically illegal

I have 2 x rear view cameras that I ensure are off ,except when I need to look at a muppet.When doing so technically I am breaking the law anywhere in eu or Uk.
Stand alone sat nav is legally acceptable as long as not touched whilst in use. As said mobile phone is highly debatable as if it is legal to use as a 'sat nav' when on the road¡ why does touching it to pay at a drive through become 6 points & a huge fine in the UK?
HUD no problem it is just a display that you are not watching.
Radio screen,as per my previous post , mine is completely covered when driving so that I cannot be accused of 'watching ' anything.
& it is nothing to do with spain alone.All the above I have posted is illegal in the UK & always has been & is why tyhe old bill run artic tractor units ,without limiters, to look in to private cars, vans & commercial lorries to catch those watching programmes, touching screens, on media,units, mobiles, tablets & lap tops.

I have no problems with technology but with the use of it without alterations to existing laws that the old bill can on any day use against you, if they so wish.

I wouldn’t argue the point as I don’t specifically know. But there was a call-in a while ago where an “expert” stated that as long as a phone was in a holder it was ok to touch it to answer or close a call but a “hands free” device or steering wheel button would be safer. He also stated that it was also legal to remove it to pay at the Dartford crossing specifically. Burger King et al although accessible to the public is not on the highway. In the same way if you pulled into a lay-by to answer a call I think they would have a hard time prosecuting. Especially if you turned the engine off.
A camera view is no different to a mirror so could not be considered watching a program. A Tesla screen or any other ev is effectively lust touching buttons (on a screen) the same as switching on a conventional radio. I actually don’t agree with it though because I think the large screens are a distraction.
So I think, as far as the UK goes there must be exclusions in the new mobile phone legislation for touching as long as the device is definitely not hand held.
I know that it is legal to hold and operate the Mike of a two-way radio without it being In a holder. As the police do. The police are subject to exactly the same laws as us but may be able to plead special circumstances as in going through a red light. But if they hit somebody they will be deemed to have broken traffic laws but will probably get off.
So in short I think your understanding, as far as the UK goes, is perhaps a bit out of date.

 

[Rob Turner]

I've two ,one up high & a number plate one.The No; plate one I use for reversing to get the ball hitch exactly under the coupling & check on whilst moving & the upper one mainly to check on the text/phone users behind me .

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You only have to see the amount of electrical faults on new vehicles with air bag ecu speedo faults, emission sensor faults. All of which should be solely down to manufacturers to fix foc,

It isn't that but the fact that it is an offence to look at any type of 'screen' whilst driving.there is no difference to me,& it should be the same for the old bill, in whether you are looking at the surrounding road via cameras or a tv programme. Same applies to all new vehicles with large screens ,especially ev's. I have a double din unit in my van & have insulation taped over the screen that I can flick up/down so I can see cameras screen when reversing, specifically for this reason, it's illegal in the uk & most of europe..

As do spain & France along with the rest of europe.


There is always something that can be done ,even if you have cameras & knock one off.

I take it you’re not sold on the cameras then?

 

[Rob Turner]

You mean they’ve gone
T’was nice meeting you last night!!
The cameras look very good, a very tidy install

Thanks Ade, good to meet you both. Hope the mirror lasts for many years

 

[WESTY66]

How do these car manufacturers get away with fitting something (and actually operate everything inside the vehicle inc heater controls etc) if they are illegal to look at, let alone touch to alter any settings??
Surely they wouldn’t have passed the various standards to be released to the public

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[WESTY66]

Thanks Ade, good to meet you both. Hope the mirror lasts for many years

It will (if I don’t fit it)

 

[gus-lopez]

I take it you’re not sold on the cameras then?

No I think decent standalone systems that have had good input,like yours appears to have done, are good.It is expecting manufacturers to install systems that operate without problems that does nothing for me.As before you only have to see the amount of electrical faults that dealers themselves can't get to the bottom of & mainly because of the manufacturers cost cutting.

 

[Platelet]

I am glad that you are pleased with them Rob.

I drove a Mercedes Actros with cameras instead of mirrors, and found it to be awful, especially when the sun was behind me causing glare in the cameras. A tiny condensation spot on the O/S camera, manifested itself as a huge blur on the monitor. Gordon Bennett.
Also, when driving at night, it was extremely hard to see the kerb and double yellow lines illuminated from the orange trailer marker lights, which in the mirrors would have been very evident indeed. Also, when reversing on to a loading bay with floodlight illumination, it was almost impossible to gauge when your trailer was reaching the load bay............as you couldn't see it in the monitors.

Not for me I'm afraid, and having spoken to drivers of the latest DAFs with cameras instead of mirrors, they all say that they are worse than the Mercs. Some of the other drivers refused to drive the company's Mercs, and when 2 x Actros trucks were stuck in London due to camera failure, Merc's answer was to attend, remove the cameras, fit mirrors, and blame the failure of the cameras on collision damage...............despite no damage to the cameras in any shape or form.

Give me mirrors anytime.

Jock.

The issue I find is normally you can lean forward in your seat and get a variable view, with the cameras it’s a fixed image and doesn’t negate the blind spots.

 

[Stoosal]

Interesting project and looks like a good outcome.
I am interested in how you tested for compliance with c and u regs. Traditional mirrors etc are tested using light source from drivers ocular points via mirror to screens where distances etc are measured but I can’t find anything relative to electronic means. It must be there somewhere but eu directives are a nightmare to navigate. Grateful if you can link to the document so I can read it.
Thanks.

 

[A-Mech]

Interesting project and looks like a good outcome.
I am interested in how you tested for compliance with c and u regs. Traditional mirrors etc are tested using light source from drivers ocular points via mirror to screens where distances etc are measured but I can’t find anything relative to electronic means. It must be there somewhere but eu directives are a nightmare to navigate. Grateful if you can link to the document so I can read it.
Thanks.

Perhaps there is no compliance?

To ratify a new system within the automotive industry is a long drawn out expensive project and given that, the homologation process is specific to each vehicle system.

I'm guessing in this case that, the compliance would be with the mirror system manufacturer itself?

It will not be a system that has been designed, manufactured and fitted by Rob.

All car manufacturers have to produce UK homologation on systems on all cars, as there current specifications are to EU specifications, thanks to brexit.

Electronic mirrors are not new and will become more evident.

Trucks, tractors, vans and cars all have this device so falling foul of some burocrat in a foreign country is probably unlikely.

I think Rob's idea is excellent and should be adopted by carthago and others, but it would mean financial expense to manufacturer and that would eat into their profits. R&D is the most expensive cost within the automotive industry.

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[WESTY66]

Perhaps there is no compliance?

To ratify a new system within the automotive industry is a long drawn out expensive project and given that, the homologation process is specific to each vehicle system.

I'm guessing in this case that, the compliance would be with the mirror system manufacturer itself?

It will not be a system that has been designed, manufactured and fitted by Rob.

All car manufacturers have to produce UK homologation on systems on all cars, as there current specifications are to EU specifications, thanks to brexit.

Electronic mirrors are not new and will become more evident.

Trucks, tractors, vans and cars all have this device so falling foul of some burocrat in a foreign country is probably unlikely.

I think Rob's idea is excellent and should be adopted by carthago and others, but it would mean financial expense to manufacturer and that would eat into their profits. R&D is the most expensive cost within the automotive industry.

Perhaps putting the cost of the camera system and fitting on the production line against the cost of the physical mirrors, the difference might be a lot lot less than we think

 

[funflair]

Interesting project and looks like a good outcome.
I am interested in how you tested for compliance with c and u regs. Traditional mirrors etc are tested using light source from drivers ocular points via mirror to screens where distances etc are measured but I can’t find anything relative to electronic means. It must be there somewhere but eu directives are a nightmare to navigate. Grateful if you can link to the document so I can read it.
Thanks.

The mirror replacement camera kits that I have seen have already been approved for retrofit so I would assume that other than fitting in accordance with their instructions there would be nothing more to do re compliance.

 

[Stoosal]

I don’t know how the camera systems fitted to vehicles undergoes homologation testing. If the cameras themselves carry that certification that’s great. There’s compliance testing for mirrors. That legislation is not necessarily the same as individual countries c and u regs. I’m interested in how they are tested once fitted to the vehicle to meet c and regs re the vision distances required. In the case of mirrors there is a noted method. I’m just curious in the method of how a camera system is physically tested once retrofitted to individual vehicles in order to measure the required distances etc.
I’m sure this will be more and more common as days go by but if I wanted them for my own vehicle now I’m interested in how I could document compliance with c and u regs via the legislated procedure etc. it’s a very technical area and finding documentation has eluded me.

 

[ianp]

I don’t know how the camera systems fitted to vehicles undergoes homologation testing. If the cameras themselves carry that certification that’s great. There’s compliance testing for mirrors. That legislation is not necessarily the same as individual countries c and u regs. I’m interested in how they are tested once fitted to the vehicle to meet c and regs re the vision distances required. In the case of mirrors there is a noted method. I’m just curious in the method of how a camera system is physically tested once retrofitted to individual vehicles in order to measure the required distances etc.
I’m sure this will be more and more common as days go by but if I wanted them for my own vehicle now I’m interested in how I could document compliance with c and u regs via the legislated procedure etc. it’s a very technical area and finding documentation has eluded me.

This is an interesting document from Volvo re the use of cameras etc and it gives a reference to the UN document that gives rise to the use of indirect vision devices etc.

The difference between driving with a camera monitor system and mirrors

Side mirrors have long been taken for granted. What are the pros and cons of driving a truck with a camera monitor system versus a traditional side mirror?

www.volvotrucks.co.uk

https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R046r5e.pdf

Interesting to note that the drive behind cameras was initially to reduce drag on the vehicle and hence its energy consumption.......though in the near future this will morph into the removal of blind spots as a general requirement.
The document does note some serious 'challenges' with the use of cameras and screens and they are certainly not a direct replacement in and around the man / machine interface......

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

Hope the mirror lasts for many years

It probably won’t be coming back from his next trip away

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